Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[Remté]

There are many reasons beliefs and religions grow, and providing the reason 'inner merits' is an egocentric self fulfilling claim. High reproductive birth rates in Islamic countries.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

I don't insider that spreading - was thinking rather why people convert.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't insider that spreading - was thinking rather why people convert.

The facts as cited are that high birth rates are the reason for the rapid growth of Islam within Islam.

 

[Remté]

The facts as cited are that high birth rates are the reason for the rapid growth of Islam within Islam.

Growing and spreading are different things.

 

[shunyadragon]

Growing and spreading are different things.

There is no significant evidence of high rates of conversion of non-Muslims to Muslims. My response was concerning the the claim of the high rate of growth. The spreading of Islam is by far dominantly related to migration of Muslims from Islamic countries.

From: Fastest Growing Religion - WikiIslam

Other Factors to Consider
Worth noting is the fact that apostates will rarely advertise leaving Islam due to the death sentence it imposes on its followers, and that most Islamic countries do not acknowledge conversions out of Islam.

Systematic persecution of religious minorities has been documented in almost every Muslim majority country, leading to some converts to Islam being coerced or forced into their conversion.

For example, following the 2010 murder of a leading Muslim politician who called for modifications to Pakistan’s blasphemy law, it had been reported that at least 20 Pakistani Christians were converting to Islam each week out of fear.[36] Also according to the Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child (SPARC), there were as many as 2,000 women and girls who were forcibly converted in 2011 to Islam through rape, torture and kidnappings in Pakistan.[37]

This is not limited to Muslim-majority countries. In the United Kingdom, it was reported in 2007 that police were working with universities to clamp down on "aggressive conversions" to Islam, during which vulnerable teenage girls are beaten up by Muslims and forced to abandon university courses.[38][39]

Conclusion
All the actual data available reveals that Islam is neither the fastest growing religion by number of adherents or the fastest growing religion by percentage-increase.

The growing number of Muslims in the world is due primarily to the higher than average birth-rates, and consequent population growths of Muslim countries and communities. And their growing presence in non-Muslim societies such as Europe and the Americas is overwhelmingly due to immigration.

Furthermore, converts to Islam are vastly outnumbered by those who choose to leave the religion and embrace another faith or worldview. And the majority of converts that Islam does manage to attract, decide to leave within the first few years of practicing it.

Finally, even if Islam were to be the fastest growing religion in the world, it would be an Argumentum ad populum to claim that this makes it the correct religion.

 

[Remté]

There is no significant evidence of high rates of conversion of non-Muslims to Muslims. My response was concerning the the claim of the high rate of growth. The spreading of Islam is by far dominantly related to migration of Muslims from Islamic countries.

From: Fastest Growing Religion - WikiIslam

Other Factors to Consider
Worth noting is the fact that apostates will rarely advertise leaving Islam due to the death sentence it imposes on its followers, and that most Islamic countries do not acknowledge conversions out of Islam.

Systematic persecution of religious minorities has been documented in almost every Muslim majority country, leading to some converts to Islam being coerced or forced into their conversion.

For example, following the 2010 murder of a leading Muslim politician who called for modifications to Pakistan’s blasphemy law, it had been reported that at least 20 Pakistani Christians were converting to Islam each week out of fear.[36] Also according to the Society for the Protection of the Rights of the Child (SPARC), there were as many as 2,000 women and girls who were forcibly converted in 2011 to Islam through rape, torture and kidnappings in Pakistan.[37]

This is not limited to Muslim-majority countries. In the United Kingdom, it was reported in 2007 that police were working with universities to clamp down on "aggressive conversions" to Islam, during which vulnerable teenage girls are beaten up by Muslims and forced to abandon university courses.[38][39]

Conclusion
All the actual data available reveals that Islam is neither the fastest growing religion by number of adherents or the fastest growing religion by percentage-increase.

The growing number of Muslims in the world is due primarily to the higher than average birth-rates, and consequent population growths of Muslim countries and communities. And their growing presence in non-Muslim societies such as Europe and the Americas is overwhelmingly due to immigration.

Furthermore, converts to Islam are vastly outnumbered by those who choose to leave the religion and embrace another faith or worldview. And the majority of converts that Islam does manage to attract, decide to leave within the first few years of practicing it.

Finally, even if Islam were to be the fastest growing religion in the world, it would be an Argumentum ad populum to claim that this makes it the correct religion.

I never said or thought it was the fastest spreading religion. Only someone said the spreading is due to its inner merits and you said no. I thought that was to the inner merits part so I wondered why you think it spreads in general.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's only you who fails to find the consistent guidance in it.

Passing the buck, and Duck, Bob and Weave response. The standard; 'If you do not believe you do not understand.'

 

[shunyadragon]

spirit_of_dawn said: ↑
Sunni and Shia are two worlds apart.

Did Muhammad follow the Sunni Law or Shia Law, please?

Regards

Probably neither, Sunni and Sharia are more likely more a fallible human view and the other divisions of Islam, and part of the problem of the inconsistency, conflict and irrelevance to the contemporary world.

 

[Remté]

Passing the buck, and Duck, Bob and Weave response. The standard; 'If you do not believe you do not understand.'

If you find consistency inconsistent you have misunderstood.

 

[shunyadragon]

"Islam in the golden age made contributions to civilization, including the origination of the scientific method."

It shows that there is nothing wrong with the religion Islam/Quran, only the people have failed/degraded.

Religion

No, only that a religion is relevant to the time it is revealed and not all future history. You could easily make the same claim for Judaism and/or Christianity that because of their Golden Age and some positive aspects, therefore 'nothing wrong' with Judaism, and or Christianity and there is no reason for Islam.

To follow Sunni law would be to also follow the Quran.

 

[shunyadragon]

If you find consistency inconsistent you have misunderstood.

Passing the buck, and Duck, Bob and Weave response. The standard; 'If you do not believe you do not understand.'

 

[paarsurrey]

Islam is the religion and belief system that has the Quran as its basis of belief, and considers it sacred text inspired by God. There are numerous divisions in Islam, and some have their Sharia Law, others do not.

So, it was not appropriate for Bahaullah to quote (Shia) Hadith in connection with Islam in his writings to prove/support his points. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The Islam you speak of here in my view is not at all that Islam that has its basis in the Quran. You also say that Sharia law is based on the Quran. that is not true. When it was created it was agreed that it *should not* go against anything in the Quran, but other than it was made to fit the society of that day.

I agree with you here.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

So, it was not appropriate for Bahaullah to quote (Shia) Hadith in connection with Islam in his writings to prove/support his points. Right, please?

Regards

That was Baha'u'llah's choice. There is wisdom in both Sunni and Sharia Islam. Sunni simply do not believe in the Sharia viw, but believe in the Quran and their own traditions.

 

[shunyadragon]

So, it was not appropriate for Bahaullah to quote (Shia) Hadith in connection with Islam in his writings to prove/support his points. Right, please?

Regards

What is appropriate for Baha'u'llah is what Baha'u'llah decided was appropriate. Not my judgement.

 

[paarsurrey]

I was referring to the numerous things you have said in this thread. Because the problems you mention are fundamentally all from the Ahadith and Sunnah. As you describe Islam as something that is based on the Quran I see a problem there. The Islam you talk about is not based so much on the Quran as the Ahadith and the Sunnah. It in fact even contradicts the Quran as those texts do.

The Sharia law can unfortunately contradict the Quran and it does, but it should not.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by that it is inspired by the Quran. It is rather inspired by the idea they hold of the prophet Muhammad. But if you like to think of those sources as the same.. although not all Muslims understand the Quran. But certainly Sharia law is not truly inspired by the Quran.

I understand it is because Bahaullah grew up in Iran and his concepts/thoughts were a lot influenced by Shiaism much based on Shia Ahadith and Shia concepts and little on Quran.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

What about Sufi beliefs. Sufi beliefs as written in Rumi poetry is Muslim beliefs that are universal and embraces all the religions.

Sufis don't indulge in politics, they focus on reforming one's self and purifying it.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

I understand it is because Bahaullah grew up in Iran and his concept/thoughts were a lot influenced by Shiaism much based on Shia Ahadith and Shia concepts and little on Quran.

Regards

OK, the only difference I see is that I believe is that Shiaism still holds the Quran sacred and the Shia a Hadith is based on a firm foundation of the Quran and the traditions of Muhammad, and the Sunni believe more on the Quran only, and their own traditions.

I see ultimately that the divisions in Islam are based on fallible human motives and I do not take sides in the divisions in Islam that are many more than Shia and Sunni.

I believe they share similarities rooted in the Quran and tradition.

 

[shunyadragon]

Sufis don't indulge in politics, they focus on reforming one's self and purifying it.

Regards

Sufis believe in self revelation more based on mysticism than the Quran

 

[paarsurrey]

Remté said: ↑
Is there a division of Islam that believes in a prophet after Muhammad?

Yes, Ahamadi's do, Alevi's kind of do.
Baha'ism is founded on the believe that the 19th century mystic Siyyid Shírází (the Bab) was a prophet (when he wasn't) and that Mírzá Núrí was the prophet to fulfill many religions from other religions besides just Islam. They're a more extreme case and the closest to being "successful" at it.

Other sects within Shi'ism (like the Ismailis and the Bayani's) have varying beliefs over the Imams (Ismaili's believe there are over 40 of them, Bayani's believe that the Bab is the Gate of knowledge before the Imam Mahdi still yet to come) but still hold firm to the finality of Muhammad's prophethood as the seal of all original revelations.

We of Ahmadiyya Islam believe that Muhammad is for all the world and for all times to come till end of the world, any person who is appointed by G-d to reform humanity to bring back on the path tread by Muhammad under the light of Word of Revelation by G-d in Quran, such person is not after Muhammad but within the era of Muhammad/Islam/Quran.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Diversity is a good thing, isn't it?

Actually, the Qur'an is very clear as far as sects go - it is against division. To understand how to interpret this, requires a meticulous study of the evolution of Islam starting before the prophet's death. Things aren't how Sunnis sell it.

It's hard to converse here when I know exactly the Baha'i view on it.
But, at the least, you do recognise that without Shia Hadith and Shi'ism itself, that Baha'ism wouldn't exist. If Islam (in the wider scope) was majority Quran-only, there would be no Baha'ism.

God's laws aren't fads btw. Nor are they invitations to be robotic slaves either.

Why do you consider this so important?
Hey, I live and breath within the contemporary world, yet I'm a devout Muslim.

I'm noting.

That's utterly absurd to say, sorry, but it is.

What does that have to do with my text you quoted?

And btw, Your phrase "universal guidance" gives me the irks big time but you wouldn't see why.

I can't make sense of your line of reasoning but sure, whatever.

I've already commented on the 'ole UU's before but you honestly see them as a "relevant alternative"?

"divide humanity", how you you draw the line between what is and what isn't? and how do you decide what division is positive and what is negative?

Btw, violence is not religion-exclusive and any sane person following the Qur'an is going to be fairly angered by the idea of people going around and harming (or killing) people unprovoked.

"It's hard to converse here when I know exactly the Baha'i view on it.
But, at the least, you do recognise that without Shia Hadith and Shi'ism itself, that Baha'ism wouldn't exist. If Islam (in the wider scope) was majority Quran-only, there would be no Baha'ism."

I believe it is a correct observation.

Regards