Islam is unable to relate to the diverse contemporary cultures

[shunyadragon]

They're initially the same.

They are essentially the same as both consider the Quran as sacred scripture inspired by God, but beyond this they are worlds apart and to some extent hostile toward each other as any two religions.

 

[shunyadragon]

But see there you say "cultural aspects of Islam" and then go on to say it separates Islam from other cultures. But Islam is not a culture. There is a culture related to it. And some, even Muslims, think that culture is part of Islam, which, taking the wide view, according to the Quran could be called blasphemy.

I present the facts of the cultural identity of Islam that indeed separates itself from other cultures of the world, and not claims nor what may be called blasphemy by many believers, which is the same problem with other ancient religions like Judaism. It is a matter of fact that ancient religions identify with the ancient culture of their origins..

I did not say Islam is a culture. Islam is an ancient religion with a strong cultural identity like Judaism and other ancient religions.

 

[Remté]

Islam is the religion and belief system that has the Quran as its basis of belief, and considers it sacred text inspired by God. There are numerous divisions in Islam, and some have their Sharia Law, others do not.

The Islam you speak of here in my view is not at all that Islam that has its basis in the Quran. You also say that Sharia law is based on the Quran. that is not true. When it was created it was agreed that it *should not* go against anything in the Quran, but other than it was made to fit the society of that day.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Islam you speak of here in my view is not at all that Islam that has its basis in the Quran.

Needs clarification here. Your response is confusing. I said, 'Islam is the religion and belief system that has the Quran as its basis of belief, and considers it sacred text inspired by God.'

You also say that Sharia law is based on the Quran. that is not true. When it was created it was agreed that it *should not* go against anything in the Quran, but other than it was made to fit the society of that day.

I did not say Sharia Law was necessarily totally based on the Quran. I said some divisions of Islam have Sharia Law. Contradiction here though, because those that have Sharia Law believe it is inspired by the Quran, and yes it cannot contradict the Quran,

 

[Remté]

Needs clarification here. Your response is confusing. I said, 'Islam is the religion and belief system that has the Quran as its basis of belief, and considers it sacred text inspired by God.'




I did not say Sharia Law was necessarily totally based on the Quran. I said some divisions of Islam have Sharia Law. Contradiction here though, because those that have Sharia Law believe it is inspired by the Quran, and yes it cannot contradict the Quran,

I was referring to the numerous things you have said in this thread. Because the problems you mention are fundamentally all from the Ahadith and Sunnah. As you describe Islam as something that is based on the Quran I see a problem there. The Islam you talk about is not based so much on the Quran as the Ahadith and the Sunnah. It in fact even contradicts the Quran as those texts do.

The Sharia law can unfortunately contradict the Quran and it does, but it should not.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by that it is inspired by the Quran. It is rather inspired by the idea they hold of the prophet Muhammad. But if you like to think of those sources as the same.. although not all Muslims understand the Quran. But certainly Sharia law is not truly inspired by the Quran.

 

[Muffled]

Of course, this is what you believe, but so do the Jews and Muslims concerning their own religion.

I would be greatly surprised if any other religion could claim that and have it be true.

 

[Muffled]

True Islam is supposed to be in a way completely lacking in culture, but the dominating form of it is not. Yet, a lot of Muslims find the reference of Islam being culture related an insult. They insist all of sharia law for instance is rleated only to Islam. But historically speaking that is not true.

I believe it is Islam of course but still it is God speaking to a particular people. For instance the rules about theft. Theft was a cultural problem in Arabia (probably still is) and so it need a stiffer penalty than is the case in Jewish law.

 

[Muffled]

What is Islam to you in itself? How do you define it?

For meIslam is hearing God and obeying Him which also happens when Jesus speaks to me through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Remté]

I believe it is Islam of course but still it is God speaking to a particular people. For instance the rules about theft. Theft was a cultural problem in Arabia (probably still is) and so it need a stiffer penalty than is the case in Jewish law.

Some say that parts of it were written suiting that time and society so that the people could understand it, but the Quran is for all people.

I'm not sure though that theft was a "cultural problem", per ce, especially if compared to other cultures of that time. We have hardly any way to argue so with the little historical facts we have to go by.

 

[Remté]

The point of the story is that if Islam does not want to relate to other cultures , that is their choice .

By this you mean *some Muslims* don't want to....

 

[Riders]

Islam is outdated and archaic, and cannot deal with a more universal diverse contemporary world, and actually contributes greatly to the violent instability and divisions of the world.

What about Sufi beliefs. Sufi beliefs as written in Rumi poetry is Muslim beliefs that are universal and embraces all the religions.

 

[Riders]

Rumi poetry

 

[shunyadragon]

I was referring to the numerous things you have said in this thread. Because the problems you mention are fundamentally all from the Ahadith and Sunnah. As you describe Islam as something that is based on the Quran I see a problem there. The Islam you talk about is not based so much on the Quran as the Ahadith and the Sunnah. It in fact even contradicts the Quran as those texts do.

The Sharia law can unfortunately contradict the Quran and it does, but it should not.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by that it is inspired by the Quran. It is rather inspired by the idea they hold of the prophet Muhammad. But if you like to think of those sources as the same.. although not all Muslims understand the Quran. But certainly Sharia law is not truly inspired by the Quran.

I believe your splitting frog hairs to generate confusion, and sort of blue smoke and mirrors act. Islam is indeed Islam in all its variations and divisions despite the many ways to cut the cake.

Those who believe in Sharia Law in one form or the other, believe it is not in conflict with the Quran, and inspired by the Quran, whether it is from the Ahadith and Sunnah or not. Of course, Sharia Law it actually may be in conflict with the Quran depending on which division of Islam you believe in. Whether anyone fully understands the Quran is not the issue here, and like the Bible there are so many conflicting beliefs it is questionable whether anyone does in any reasonable coherent sense. Believers believe they do follow the Quran, and the Ahadith, Sunnah and inspired by their idea of the prophet Muhammad. It is basically true that all the diverse and often conflicting divisions in Islam, believe they are following in Submission to God,' which is Islam in on sort or another.

 

[james blunt]

By this you mean *some Muslims* don't want to....

It is always some , it would be rare that everyone agreed on the same thing !

Life is about binary choices , every person has binary choices .

On the left shoulder is one choice

On the right shoulder is another choice

You are the one in the middle considering each choice


Now people just don't think , often they jump down the middle ignoring each shoulder , a neurological singularity instead of a neurological binary .


The truth is , if you ask yourself questions and answer your own questions , you see life differently .



Example : The lady over there is wearing a really short skirt

Question : Does this is anyway affect me ?


Answer : Of course not , so logically and objective , what people wear is not my concerns .


So quite clearly , no offense intended , if your religion worries about what people wear , that is a bit absurd . Especially considering everyone is born naked . Being naked is not unnatural , wearing clothes is actually unnatural .

If seeing flesh offends God , we would be born wearing clothes ......

 

[shunyadragon]

Rumi poetry

Reflects the beliefs at the foundation of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[shunyadragon]

What about Sufi beliefs. Sufi beliefs as written in Rumi poetry is Muslim beliefs that are universal and embraces all the religions.

Rumi poetry does not necessarily reflect Islamic beliefs. Rumi was a well known Sufi scholar and mystic. Mystic movements evolved in most religions such as Judaism, Christianity, but do not necessarily reflect all the beliefs of those religions.

From: Sufism and Rumi: Enabling Individuals to Discover Their Stable Reality

"Sufism is a discipline, a system of education that facilitates the journey of self-knowledge, a journey which enables the individual to discover his stable reality, and ultimately the reality of religion. Each individual is the architect of his or her own environment.

We draw or break the boundaries, and decide how far we want to travel in the path of self-knowledge in order to discover the reality of religion by unfolding our own myth. Cognition of our true self enables us to free ourselves from our limitations and attachments, and experience freedom, peace, and tranquility in our everyday lives.

One of the most fundamental principles of Sufism is that whatever exists is the manifestation of the one absolute knowledge that pervades everything and is not limited to time or place. Therefore, the closest place to gain access to this knowledge is within one’s own self."

 

[Remté]

I believe your splitting frog hairs to generate confusion, and sort of blue smoke and mirrors act. Islam is indeed Islam in all its variations and divisions despite the many ways to cut the cake.

Those who believe in Sharia Law in one form or the other, believe it is not in conflict with the Quran, and inspired by the Quran, whether it is from the Ahadith and Sunnah or not. Of course, Sharia Law it actually may be in conflict with the Quran depending on which division of Islam you believe in. Whether anyone fully understands the Quran is not the issue here, and like the Bible there are so many conflicting beliefs it is questionable whether anyone does in any reasonable coherent sense. Believers believe they do follow the Quran, and the Ahadith, Sunnah and inspired by their idea of the prophet Muhammad. It is basically true that all the diverse and often conflicting divisions in Islam, believe they are following in Submission to God,' which is Islam in on sort or another.

I don't think so. The very official sources of Saudi Arabia for instance mistranslate the Quran to justify the oppression of women. There must be people there who are aware of this and still support it.

According to the Sharia law women must cover them more here less there. It is widely recognized that the source of this rule is a Hadith which by many scholars is considered a weak one.

I accept that Islam is used as a mere reference to a religion that varies in time and place by its charactetstics, but I also believe that many are blasphemous in their religion and that way are not using the Quran as their source. And if your description of Islam is that its basis is in the Quran then there is a contradiction there.

 

[Remté]

It is always some , it would be rare that everyone agreed on the same thing !

Life is about binary choices , every person has binary choices .

On the left shoulder is one choice

On the right shoulder is another choice

You are the one in the middle considering each choice


Now people just don't think , often they jump down the middle ignoring each shoulder , a neurological singularity instead of a neurological binary .


The truth is , if you ask yourself questions and answer your own questions , you see life differently .



Example : The lady over there is wearing a really short skirt

Question : Does this is anyway affect me ?


Answer : Of course not , so logically and objective , what people wear is not my concerns .


So quite clearly , no offense intended , if your religion worries about what people wear , that is a bit absurd . Especially considering everyone is born naked . Being naked is not unnatural , wearing clothes is actually unnatural .

If seeing flesh offends God , we would be born wearing clothes ......

A religion does not have worries.

 

[james blunt]

A religion does not have worries.

I was using the word ''worry'' , ambiguously ! It was better than saying if you are stupid enough .

 

[Remté]

I was using the word ''worry'' , ambiguously ! It was better than saying if you are stupid enough .

A religion doesn't have the capacity of being stupid either. Like I said you are referring to a bunch of people not a religion in itself.