Islam vs western values

[Kenny]

Aren't you reading these posts? Aren't you reading the literature on the subject? Where are you getting all this incorrect information? Links, please.

The anatomy and physiology of your brain was not your choice, any more than your hair color or race. There is no reason to believe there are more gay humans, ducks, deer, dogs, &c today than there were in the past.

The reason you see more gays today is because they'll no longer go to jail, or be ridiculed, or ostracized, so many are no longer hiding it.
This has been explained to you, but apparently you're not listening.

The reasoning isn't correct IMV.

If that were true, then any action we take that custom says is wrong is not wrong. You were born that way and thus you couldn't help yourself or change. Our minds are powerful enough to become whatever we yield ourselves to become.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The reasoning isn't correct IMV.

If that were true, then any action we take that custom says is wrong is not wrong. You were born that way and thus you couldn't help yourself or change. Our minds are powerful enough to become whatever we yield ourselves to become.

Um, why should anyone have to "help" him/herself or change just because they were born gay? You say that as though there is something wrong with being gay. I mean, would you be saying the same thing if someone were pointing out that people are born "straight?"

 

[Kenny]

And I think God shows more than that, because He doesn't kill anyone arbitrarily and maximizes the well-being for people.

Why do you think God build a torture chamber? Bible tells there will be death for unrighteous and life for righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And people who are thrown to hell are destroyed. Do you think person who is utterly destroyed will feel or do anything anymore?

And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
Matt. 10:28

your posts are great.

I would add that Hell was prepared for Satan and his angels:

Matthew 25:41.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Man chooses who he will serve. If he chooses God, he receives the righteousness of Christ and becomes one with God. If he rejects God, he becomes guilty by association and receives the judgment that was reserved for the devil and his angels. At least that is my understanding.

 

[Kenny]

Um, why should anyone have to "help" him/herself or change just because they were born gay? You say that as though there is something wrong with being gay. I mean, would you be saying the same thing if someone were pointing out that people are born "straight?"

Straight people can still do things that are wrong. Straight or gay isn't what I said.

To get back on topic... IF we are born a certain way and, however we are born, it is OK because we are born that way, then nothing anybody does is wrong because we were born that way. Whether straight or gay, if we are compulsive robbers, it isn't our fault, it's the wiring and we shouldn't be punished by our actions and just accept that it is the way we were born.

So the logic is wrong because we can change.

edited because of a miss-spelling

 

[exchemist]

because you guys are bombing their countries, isn't it obvious?

A lot of the recent migration comes from places like Iran and Afghanistan, by people wanting to escape the islamic regimes there. But indeed the Syrian refugees are trying to escape the complex war involving Daesh, Assad and western-backed pro-democracy groups.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Straight people can still do things that are wrong. Straight or gay isn't what I said.

To get back on topic... IF we are born a certain way and, however we are born, it is OK because we are born that way, then nothing anybody does is wrong because we were born that way. Whether straight or gay, if we are compulsive robbers, it isn't our fault, it's the wiring and we shouldn't be punished by our actions and just accept that it is the way we were born.

So the logic is wrong because we can change.

edited because of a miss-spelling

People aren't born "compulsive robbers" though. So I don't think your logic is making much sense. You're still implying that "gay" is something that needs changed or "helped", in my opinion. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with being gay or straight. There are things inherently wrong with being a "compulsive robber."

I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think it works.

 

[Kenny]

People aren't born "compulsive robbers" though. So I don't think your logic is making much sense. You're still implying that "gay" is something that needs changed or "helped", in my opinion. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with being gay or straight. There are things inherently wrong with being a "compulsive robber."

I mean, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think it works.

How do you know compulsive robbers aren't born that way? Or are you just picking and choosing what you are born as? My position holds

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Man chooses who he will serve. If he chooses God, he receives the righteousness of Christ and becomes one with God. If he rejects God, he becomes guilty by association and receives the judgment that was reserved for the devil and his angels. At least that is my understanding.

That's the mainstream hell theology to which I referred, the one I mentioned was still being promulgated from pulpits today, although softer doctrines are beginning to appear likely as an adaptation to the public's increasing disapproval of Christian theology on a number of fronts.

the logic is wrong because we can change.

Why should a homosexual "change"? Because the Abrahamic god is said to disapprove? Why should that matter to any unbeliever? From a humanistic perspective, Christianity promotes an immoral, bigoted doctrine, one that foments hatred and makes some people's lives worse. Authentic morality is about making lives better.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Right lets flee to the country that's bombing us. That really makes sense

To be fair, it does make sense in many cases, because some of the world's most developed countries in terms of domestic quality of life have engaged in military aggression or disruptive interventionism against other countries, many of whose citizens then move to another country, and it could be the one that carried out the aggression. There are plenty of Iraqis and Afghans in the US and plenty of Africans in France, for example.

However, the "criticism" of Western countries given in this thread strikes me as oversimplified, overgeneralized, and biased by a particularly fundamentalist and exclusionary interpretation of religion.

 

[Pro Gamer]

A lot of the recent migration comes from places like Iran and Afghanistan, by people wanting to escape the islamic regimes there. But indeed the Syrian refugees are trying to escape the complex war involving Daesh, Assad and western-backed pro-democracy groups.

afghanistan was bombed by america so was iran and also syria

 

[Debater Slayer]

A lot of the recent migration comes from places like Iran and Afghanistan, by people wanting to escape the islamic regimes there. But indeed the Syrian refugees are trying to escape the complex war involving Daesh, Assad and western-backed pro-democracy groups.

What many Islamists overlook or outright support when they talk about migration caused by Western interventionism and aggression is that even if the West completely left their countries alone and allowed them to enact their theocratic visions of a utopia, many groups would still need to migrate to have basic rights and freedoms. LGBT people, Pagans, atheists, Buddhists, and numerous other groups would still be denied equal rights and freedoms under such a theocracy, Western intervention or not.

These discussions tend to proceed as if irreligious and LGBT people from Islamic countries didn't even exist. The only groups touched on and regarded by Islamists as deserving of full rights are usually heterosexual followers of Abrahamic religions (and even then, not all followers of Abrahamic religions).

 

[Kenny]

That's the mainstream hell theology to which I referred, the one I mentioned was still being promulgated from pulpits today, although softer doctrines are beginning to appear likely as an adaptation to the public's increasing disapproval of Christian theology on a number of fronts.

Yes, that is the position that Jesus proclaimed. It would appear that he didn't care what you and I or the people of that time thought about it.

Why should a homosexual "change"? Because the Abrahamic god is said to disapprove? Why should that matter to any unbeliever? From a humanistic perspective, Christianity promotes an immoral, bigoted doctrine, one that foments hatred and makes some people's lives worse. Authentic morality is about making lives better.

I never said a person had to change. As a matter of fact, as a free-will spiritual agents that we are, we can do anything we want to.

There is a humanistic approach to life which can be immoral and bigoted that foments hatred, or you can be a religious Christian that promotes bigoted and hypocritical doctrines, or we can spread the love that the message of Jesus brings.

 

[exchemist]

afghanistan was bombed by america so was iran and also syria

Neither Iran nor Pakistan has been bombed. And the present migration from Afghanistan is since the arrival of the islamic government of the Taliban, not because of military action years ago.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Neither Iran nor Pakistan has been bombed. And the present migration from Afghanistan is since the arrival of the islamic government of the Taliban, not because of military action years ago.

Pakistan was, but I don't think the extent was enough to cause migration remotely comparable to, say, that from Iraq or Syria:

Drone strikes in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[exchemist]

Pakistan was, but I don't think the extent was enough to cause migration remotely comparable to, say, that from Iraq or Syria:

Drone strikes in Pakistan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good point, I was forgetting about those. But I'm not aware of any evidence that the migration comes from those tribal areas.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I never said a person had to change.

No, you didn't. You said people CAN change in a discussion about straight and gay people, and I know your position there - straight people are fine if they confine sex to marriage, and gay sex is always sin.

There is a humanistic approach to life which can be immoral and bigoted that foments hatred

Not to my knowledge. Humanism is rational and tolerant, not bigoted. When a believer calls a humanist immoral, it means the same as when a humanist calls a religion or its god as depicted as immoral - we don't share the same set of moral values.

we can spread the love that the message of Jesus brings.

That's not love as I use the word. Christians say that God is love, but its actions are seen as immoral from a humanist perspective. The love of God includes damnation. Love in Christianity includes blood sacrifice.

I like the "message of love" that humanism embodies better. Love is about making other lives better. Christianity is about making the afterlife better by obeying its gods alleged commandments. Humanism advocates for supporting human satisfaction during life without regard for claims about gods.

 

[Pro Gamer]

Neither Iran nor Pakistan has been bombed. And the present migration from Afghanistan is since the arrival of the islamic government of the Taliban, not because of military action years ago.

pakistan doesn't have borders with iran so what immigration? afghanistanis knew that if america was leaving then they would probably make the country starve to death just to take revenge on taliban

 

[Left Coast]

Straight people can still do things that are wrong. Straight or gay isn't what I said.

To get back on topic... IF we are born a certain way and, however we are born, it is OK because we are born that way, then nothing anybody does is wrong because we were born that way. Whether straight or gay, if we are compulsive robbers, it isn't our fault, it's the wiring and we shouldn't be punished by our actions and just accept that it is the way we were born.

So the logic is wrong because we can change.

edited because of a miss-spelling

But gay romance isn't robbery. Nor is there any rational reason to consider it inherently or universally wrong. It just boils down to "(you think) your God said so." But we don't (and shouldn't) care until you can reasonably explain why your god allegedly thinks so. And if she doesn't have a good reason...no one reasonable is going to listen. Which is why more and more of us don't.

Meanwhile - I'm glad our values are subject to revision. Humanity has done great damage to ourselves by insisting dogmatically that we (or projecting, our god(s)) can't possibly be wrong. That's been the case whether that insistence has been Christian, or Islamic, or secular.

 

[Kenny]

No, you didn't. You said people CAN change in a discussion about straight and gay people and I know your position there - straight people are fine if they confine sex to marriage, and gay sex is always sin.

Exactly... so if one want to express themselves in whatever lifestyle, they are free to do so.

And your statement only encompasses 1/4 of what I have said over the years and that being "all have sinned" - which includes straight people. I have also said "Take the beam out of your own eye before you judge another person" (paraphrased) - I'm not the eternal judge so I don't judge people's eternity.

Not to my knowledge. Humanism is rational and tolerant, not bigoted. When a believer calls a humanist immoral, it means the same as when a humanist calls a religion or its god as depicted as immoral - we don't share the same set of moral values.

I'm not stating whether it's a believer or non-believer. I have simply seen many humanists who are irrational, intolerant and bigoted. Do you think that humanists are all saints? Of course people share different moral values. I probably can say that even in the humanist camp as well as the Christian camp there are varying sets of moral values.

That's not love as I use the word. Christians say that God is love, but its actions are seen as immoral from a humanist perspective. The love of God includes damnation. Love in Christianity includes blood sacrifice.

Yes, I have heard that line before. I follow the simple statement of "John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." That is my definition and there is no greater love than that. As we all have different moral values, I can safely say we have different definitions of love.

I like the "message of love" that humanism embodies better. Love is about making other lives better. Christianity is about making the afterlife better by obeying its gods alleged commandments. Humanism advocates for supporting human satisfaction during life without regard for claims about gods.

I wouldn't agree with your position about Christianity's definition of love. Love your neighbor as yourself is about the here an now and not the hereafter. If your definition were so true, we wouldn't have help for those in prison and those coming out of prison, homes for those coming out of addiction, helps for those who are in poverty, disaster relief, medical helps, grief counseling, marriage counseling, home building, youth services, baby helps, homeless shelters, educational helps, job preparation helps, home repair helps, building housing for widows, helping orphans and adoption agencies et al.

All regardless about which god they serve.

And all seem to be about the here and now.

 

[Kenny]

But gay romance isn't robbery.

As my post stated... please get back to the issue I stated.