Islam vs western values

[Left Coast]

As my post stated... please get back to the issue I stated.

I replied to the issue you raised. You are correct that ethically it doesn't per se matter whether gay people are "born that way." Other considerations become relevant, such as whether their actions hurt others. Gay romance doesn't inherently or universally do so. So again, you have no rational reason to oppose it.

 

[exchemist]

pakistan doesn't have borders with iran so what immigration? afghanistanis knew that if america was leaving then they would probably make the country starve to death just to take revenge on taliban

I have been talking about migration to Europe from muslim countries. There are a lot of Iranians and Pakistanis coming to Europe.

 

[Kenny]

I replied to the issue you raised. You are correct that ethically it doesn't per se matter whether gay people are "born that way." Other considerations become relevant, such as whether their actions hurt others. Gay romance doesn't inherently or universally do so. So again, you have no rational reason to oppose it.

And the issue was if "you are born that way" then everyone is "born that way" and thus no actions (whether by those who live as straight people or those who live as gay) are wrong and no laws of any kind should be enacted. I was born to drive fast because I was born to experience the high adrenaline and so, since I don't wreck any other car on the road, I should be allowed to drive at 90 MPH.

Illogical.

So I'm bringing it back to the central issue of what I was talking about.

personally, if someone wants to live a homosexual lifestyle... please feel free to do so. I don't oppose that person's right.

 

[Left Coast]

And the issue was if "you are born that way" then everyone is "born that way" and thus no actions (whether by those who live as straight people or those who live as gay are wrong and no laws of any kind should be enacted. I was born to drive fast because I was born to experience the high adrenaline and so, since I don't wreck any other car on the road, I should be allowed to drive at 90 MPH.

Illogical.

No one claims that gay people should be allowed to do anything because they're gay. No one is saying it's okay for gay people to rape others of the same sex because they're gay, for example.

The issue is that if you're going to ethically obligate people to live in complete denial of a key element of their personality, you better have an airtight, damn good reason for doing so. And you don't. Whereas I do have good reasons for wanting people to not commit robbery or follow traffic laws.

So making people feel guilty for their gayness is, understandably, seen as deeply cruel and ignorant. That's why you see people emphasizing the "born this way" idea.

 

[Kenny]

No one claims that gay people should be allowed to do anything because they're gay. No one is saying it's okay for gay people to rape others of the same sex because they're gay, for example.

The issue is that if you're going to ethically obligate people to live in complete denial of a key element of their personality, you better have an airtight, damn good reason for doing so. And you don't. Whereas I do have good reasons for wanting people to not commit robbery or follow traffic laws.

So making people feel guilty for their gayness is, understandably, seen as deeply cruel and ignorant. That's why you see people emphasizing the "born this way" idea.

It is amazing to me how no-one wants to stay on the issue I am talking about. I think it is a telltale sign that "being born that way' is not supportable.

I'm not making people feel guilty as you continue to try to change the position of the goal post.

I am happy that you don't want people to rob... that wasn't the issue but rather a simple example of the issue I was talking about.

So, until you come up with a better argument than simply "someone is born that way", we can both agree that a person has the right to live their life how the chose to live to the dictates of their own conscience or the God/god/gods they serve or no God/god/gods if they don't believe in a God.

As long as they don't harm others. (Although that is a dicey position too since "harm" can vary from person to person)

 

[Left Coast]

It is amazing to me how no-one wants to stay on the issue I am talking about. I think it is a telltale sign that "being born that way' is not supportable.

I have been staying on issue, Ken. The deeper issue beneath the point you're making is what I'm attempting to illuminate for you.

I'm not making people feel guilty as you continue to try to change the position of the goal post.

Your religion most certainly is (please spare me the "I don't have a religion" throwaway line).

I am happy that you don't want people to rob... that wasn't the issue but rather a simple example of the issue I was talking about.

But it's key to understanding why your example isn't analogous to gayness.

So, until you come up with a better argument than simply "someone is born that way", we can both agree that a person has the right to live their life how the chose to live to the dictates of their own conscience or the God/god/gods they serve or no God/god/gods if they don't believe in a God.

On the contrary, until you come up with a better argument than "my God says so," you're not going to convince reasonable people that there's anything morally wrong with gayness.

I'm glad you agree gay rights ought to be honored by society.

The deeper issue with "choice" language is that it implies that gayness itself is a choice - which it isn't. Individual acts are choices - not sexual orientation.

As long as they don't harm others. (Although that is a dicey position too since "harm" can vary from person to person)

I agree that harm is a reasonable ethical standard - which is why anyone who thinks so ought to have no problem with gayness.

 

[danieldemol]

pakistan doesn't have borders with iran so what immigration? afghanistanis knew that if america was leaving then they would probably make the country starve to death just to take revenge on taliban

I'd suggest you actually ask the migrants why they are leaving, for some it will be to live in a country free of military intervention, but for others it is also not to live under theocratic rule. Some of them have even written books about it such as Malala yousavzai telling people they don't want to live under Taliban etc if you'd bother listening in my view.

 

[Pro Gamer]

I have been talking about migration to Europe from muslim countries. There are a lot of Iranians and Pakistanis coming to Europe.

yeah for work not for a better life

 

[Valjean]

Please show a scripture that says don't beat neighbors.

I was speaking from a historical and anthropological perspective. To what degree were slaves, women, or foreigners "people?" Do they enjoy equality under the law? Do they enjoy equal freedom or self-deterination?

I don't know what they were. But, I believe God's punishments are for evil and unrighteous people. But, in the case of animals, in Biblical point of view they can be killed even if they are not guilty for something (lambs and doves were killed, even though not necessary evil).

Funny how human values can be more just or compassionate than God's

Sorry, I disagree with that.

Read the Bible, then.

Thank you for the scripture.

I disagree with that. For example the story about Niniveh indicates otherwise.

Interesting how you can find in the Bible both cruelty and compassion, justice and injustice, kindness and harshness, condemnation and forgiveness. It's not very consistent.

I believe God is extremely good, fair, patient and merciful, but, there is a limit for how evil people can be. And the same is with all people.

What about some of the atrocities I mentioned?

And I think Bible shows more than generalized human rights, because it says for example:
as the native among you, so shall be the alien who is staying with you; and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am Jehovah your God.
Lev. 19:34

See my comment above about consistency.

 

[Valjean]

The reasoning isn't correct IMV.

If that were true, then any action we take that custom says is wrong is not wrong. You were born that way and thus you couldn't help yourself or change. Our minds are powerful enough to become whatever we yield ourselves to become.

In some circumstances, yes, but you can't change your natural hair color, or your race, or myriad other genetic features.
You can act straight, or sound straight, or even convince yourself you are straight, but brain scans and psychometric tests would indicate otherwise.

 

[Valjean]

Neither Iran nor Pakistan has been bombed. And the present migration from Afghanistan is since the arrival of the islamic government of the Taliban, not because of military action years ago.

Many Muslim countries -- and Christian, for that matter -- have legitimate grievances against the US. The US does tend to get heavy-handed, if not violent, if someone has something it wants, or takes back something the US has previously appropriated.

Before the US saw economic or strategic value in Iran or Afghanistan, things were friendly and peaceful. Westerners were there, and natives were imitating them and rapidly westernizing. But as soon as the West became coercive, the people became hostile to both its presence, values, dress and religion. Fundamentalist movements soon followed.

 

[Valjean]

yeah for work not for a better life

Hogwash!
More come for safety, security and food than just for work.
The West had work and high wages long before the migrations began.

 

[danieldemol]

yeah for work not for a better life

Do you think an employed life is not better than an unemployed life?
Why can't Wahhabi societies provide work, are they disfunctional?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think an employed life is not better than an unemployed life?
Why can't Wahhabi societies provide work, are they disfunctional?

What on earth is a "Wahhabi society" ??

 

[danieldemol]

What on earth is a "Wahhabi society" ??

A society that follows or tries to follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab - Wikipedia

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

western rights are all about getting naked and things like that

No they aren't.
Where do you get this nonsense?
Where do you live?

. i have never heard of westerns doing riot about single mother not taking care of children or children not knowing their fathers.

I don't even know how to respond to this drivel.
Riots? wtf?

it's all just "human right therefore get naked"

You're just trolling and / or acting like a Poe, aren't you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Which polls? There are many polls that have methodological and reliability issues, especially when they try to gauge sentiments in countries with highly stifled freedom of speech and belief. I wouldn't consider their results to be definitive.

Either way, though, I think there are many factors aside from just a religion that give rise to militant activities and support thereof. That includes socioeconomic, geopolitical, and educational ones, mainly. Of course, a subset of ideologies are more likely to be held by militants, but I think such ideologies usually develop and arise in the first place not because of something inherent in any given religion but because of material conditions and circumstances like the few I listed.

When it comes to Islam, the most militant sects and interpretations of it clearly don't inspire the vast majority to "blow each other up," and the religion is far too diverse and large of an umbrella for most generalized statements to accurately apply to it.

Here for example

Muslim Publics Share Concerns about Extremist Groups

Survey Report More than two years after the death of Osama bin Laden, concern about Islamic extremism remains widespread among Muslims from South Asia to

www.pewresearch.org

It's a more general poll off course, but it includes stats on how favorable or not one is to various things like targetting civilians, suicide bombs, fundamentalist groups, etc.

And yes, the majority is against it.
But the minority that is not only not against it, but even for it, is far too large imo.
It is, idd, in double digits in many countries.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

because you guys are bombing their countries, isn't it obvious?

I wouldn't move to the country that is bombing me.
Would you?

Why are Ukrainians all fleeing to Europe instead of to Russia?
Usually, you would try and get away from the people that are trying to kill you.


You don't seem to have a habit of putting much thought in your posts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To get back on topic... IF we are born a certain way and, however we are born, it is OK because we are born that way, then nothing anybody does is wrong because we were born that way. Whether straight or gay, if we are compulsive robbers, it isn't our fault, it's the wiring and we shouldn't be punished by our actions and just accept that it is the way we were born.

Being gay vs being a robber, is - off course - a dishonest and false equivalence.
Those are not the same thing at all.

One is determined by biology you have no control over. Like having blue eyes.
The other is a behavioral decision that you have 100% control over.

Therefor, only one of these has moral implications.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How do you know compulsive robbers aren't born that way? Or are you just picking and choosing what you are born as? My position holds

Again.....

One is a biological reality.
The other is a behavior decision.

These are not the same thing.