Islam: What the West needs to know

[Bismillah]

And what would your suggestion be to prevent it from happening again?

Where? Different events motivated by different causes.

 

[JustWondering]

Where?

I don't care, pick a place.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I believe I did, you chose to ignore my response

Well, I can honestly say I saw no post of yours that explained why the quotes I posted to you were violent. If you did and I missed it, then I apologize, and ask that you point me to where it was explained.

I'm not an unreasonable person, contrary to what you may believe. I did not however, intentionally ignore anything.

instead falling back on actions of Muslims which is circular logic.

Me blaming Islam's violent teachings, and contributing that to the actions of Muslim extremists, is no different than me criticizing young earth creationists for quoting bible verses that supposedly say the earth is only 6000 years old. I know why they do it. What I don't know, and have asked you to explain, is why Muslims all over the world, to include here in the US, use Islam to press their goal of a global Islamic state, through the use of terrorism.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

A Muslim who converted to Christianity and you think it gave a less western bias? sheesh! You think he would say Islam is an awesome religion but i left it because it wasn't the one for me?

He wasn't just a Muslim who converted to Christianity. He was a former member of the PLO who actively demonstrated against the West/Israel. He carried out a bomb attack in Israel. He explains how he used to view the whole situation in the film. It was quite obvious to me how he saw Islam and how people were perpetrating it. The reason I said it gave it a little less of a wester bias tinge is that the film was not just a bunch of Americans ranting about Islam. If I remember correctly, there were only 1 or 2 Americans in the film. The rest were either Muslim or European.

I didn't see the film, so do you have specific points you want to discuss or any question?

Well, it would be hard for us to discuss specific points without you actually watching the program. I really suggest you give it a look-see. I would like to discuss it with you, and anyone else that has watched it.

Believe me, I didn't start this thread in an attempt to spread some form of anti-Muslim propaganda. I sincerely was looking for some revolving dialog on it.

 

[Bismillah]

I sincerely was looking for some revolving dialog on it.

You are talking about bombing?

Refer to my verses and then argue why I am wrong.

 

[C.E.O]

I watched this documentary, I noticed that many of whom I consider ex-Muslims speak bravely.
Any way, all the Abrahamic religions share the same hostile teaching, but in Jews and christians case they no longer take this teaching seriously, looking to this point historically, Muslims will take the same attitude but after 500 years, it's approximately the time between Christ and Muhammad.

 

[Bismillah]

Any way, all the Abrahamic religions share the same hostile teaching

Of course you will not refer to the verses I posted?

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

I think it has to do primarily with the economy and education in those parts of the world. Well-educated Muslims do not take the Koran literally, the same way well educated Christians do not take the Bible literally. The Bible says to pluck out the eyes of children or be put to death for talking back to parents. All religious texts have disgusting things in them. Christians had the dark ages in Europe, some Muslims are still in the dark ages. I guess they just have to wait for their renaissance and enlightenment. It will probably take a few centuries for that to happen.

 

[C.E.O]

Of course you will not refer to the verses I posted?

Which verses Bismillah?
Please post them again, and I can negotiate them with you.

 

[Bismillah]

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind) (Al-Ma’idah 5:32).

But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment. (An-Nisa' 4:93)

“Anyone who kills a Dhimmi will not smell the fragrance of Paradise ” (Al-Bukhari).

There can be no retaliation or attacks on civilians because of the actions of their governments

Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another’s load (Al-An`am 6:164)

Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses. And Abraham who paid his debt. That no laden one shall bear another’s load (An-Najm 53:36-38)

Moreover, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing women, children, the aged, monks in their hermitages, farmers in their lands, and traders. This ruling of prohibition is stressed by the Qur’anic verses, the Prophetic hadiths, as well as the directives given by the Rightly-Guided Caliphs.

Anyone who is detained or kidnapped must be taken care of and released as the same terms apply to POWs

...and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens (Al-Ahqaf 47:4).

the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not wish to confront your enemy, but if you do, be patient." (Al-Bukhari)

Narrated By Ibn 'Umar : During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.
Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 258.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. Noble Verses 2:190-191

Ibn `Abbas says: The Messenger of Allah, when dispatching his troops, would tell them, " ..Do not behave treacherously, nor misappropriate war-booty, nor mutilate [those whom you kill], nor kill children, nor the people in cloisters."[Narrated by Ahmad, Tirmidhi (who graded it hasan sahih)].

Another contains, "…Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor an old, aged man’[Narrated by Baghawi, through his isnad [Sharh al-Sunnah, 11/11]. He said, "This is an authentic hadith, narrated by Muslim.]

“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Quran (8:61)

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid.
Qur'an 22:39

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Qur'an 2:190

Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Qur'an 4:90

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Qur'an 8:61

Here are some articles that discuss suicide bombers and the reasons why they do what they do.

Mental Health Association of Portland » Blog Archive » The truth about suicide bombers
Terrorism, suicide bombing, fear and mental health. [Int Rev Psychiatry. 2007] - PubMed result
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_t...ism#Conclusion
The American Conservative -- The Logic of Suicide Terrorism
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/201...military-occup

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'll watch it too, but I think a more interesting story would be the gentleman you speak of and his conversion to Christianity.

 

[C.E.O]

Thanks.
I promise I will answer them.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I'll watch it too, but I think a more interesting story would be the gentleman you speak of and his conversion to Christianity.

It is interesting. He speaks of it and his participation in the PLO, but I do not think he says right out exactly what convinced him to convert, unless it was the time he planted a bomb in Israel, and then couldn't sleep for three days from fear he had actually killed someone.

Other than that, I dont know much about him.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind) (Al-Ma’idah 5:32).

Other than manslaughter? You do realize that manslaughter in western culture is murder right?

But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment. (An-Nisa' 4:93)

Kills a "believer"...so if they do not believe in Allah it's ok?

“Anyone who kills a Dhimmi will not smell the fragrance of Paradise ” (Al-Bukhari).

That's nice and all, unfortunately most Muslim majority countries do not follow this even a little.

There can be no retaliation or attacks on civilians because of the actions of their governments

Hmm...AL Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah...pretty sure they all exist because of foreign Gov'ts.

Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another’s load (Al-An`am 6:164)

Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses. And Abraham who paid his debt. That no laden one shall bear another’s load (An-Najm 53:36-38)

Ok

Moreover, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade killing women, children, the aged, monks in their hermitages, farmers in their lands, and traders. This ruling of prohibition is stressed by the Qur’anic verses, the Prophetic hadiths, as well as the directives given by the Rightly-Guided Caliphs.

Beslan school hostage crisis ring a bell?

Anyone who is detained or kidnapped must be taken care of and released as the same terms apply to POWs

I cannot think of one conflict involving Muslims in the last 20 years where this didn't happen. Surely not Iraq/Afghanistan. Again, Beslan school hostages

...and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens (Al-Ahqaf 47:4).

Or their heads

the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not wish to confront your enemy, but if you do, be patient." (Al-Bukhari)

Ok

Narrated By Ibn 'Umar : During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.
Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 258.

Hamas and Hezbollah should read this one again

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. Noble Verses 2:190-191

Well, considering Muhammad supposedly beheaded 600-900 individuals himself, I would say this one was either ignored, or the limits are way out there.

Ibn `Abbas says: The Messenger of Allah, when dispatching his troops, would tell them, " ..Do not behave treacherously, nor misappropriate war-booty, nor mutilate [those whom you kill], nor kill children, nor the people in cloisters."[Narrated by Ahmad, Tirmidhi (who graded it hasan sahih)].

These verses keep saying don't kill women or children. So explain why every terrorist organization has done this, including the Kurds in northern Iraq.

Another contains, "…Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor an old, aged man’[Narrated by Baghawi, through his isnad [Sharh al-Sunnah, 11/11]. He said, "This is an authentic hadith, narrated by Muslim.]

See above

“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Quran (8:61)

Ok

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid.
Qur'an 22:39

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Qur'an 2:190

Does this apply to Muslims fighting other Muslims?

Here are some articles that discuss suicide bombers and the reasons why they do what they do.

Mental Health Association of Portland » Blog Archive » The truth about suicide bombers
Terrorism, suicide bombing, fear and mental health. [Int Rev Psychiatry. 2007] - PubMed result
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_t...ism#Conclusion
The American Conservative -- The Logic of Suicide Terrorism
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/201...military-occup

Didn't read the articles. I don't see how anything could explain why they do what they do other than they are following what they believe Allah wants. When a suicide bomber completes his mission, his friends and family celebrate it as a great victory, for he is now a martyr and heading to paradise and the Hoors provided by Allah. It's doubtful to me any shrink can make a qualified guess as to why they do it, considering it's pretty tough to talk to someone who blows themselves up. How many suicide bombers go to a shrink before they do it?

When I get a chance, I will retort with my own list of verses, and would like you to reply to them in the same manor.

 

[Bismillah]

I don't know what to say, I am dumbfounded that a man can repeat the same idiotic mistake again and again. I do not know how to convince someone that when discussing religion it is essential to do so from a religious point of view (if I cite a verse cite a contradictory one), instead you INSIST on pointing to fallible humans who form their actions on their situation and not religion. This is circular logic.

You fail to even give a cursory look to the article which give a great insight into the mindset of an individual and why he chooses to do what he does.

I don't see how anything could explain why they do what they do other than they are following what they believe Allah wants.

Stubbornness and an inability to grasp any new ideas, no wonder.

What a waste of time don't bother replying to any of my posts.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

I don't know what to say, I am dumbfounded that a man can repeat the same idiotic mistake again and again. I do not know how to convince someone that when discussing religion it is essential to do so from a religious point of view (if I cite a verse cite a contradictory one), instead you INSIST on pointing to fallible humans who form their actions on their situation and not religion. This is circular logic.

You fail to even give a cursory look to the article which give a great insight into the mindset of an individual and why he chooses to do what he does.

Stubbornness and an inability to grasp any new ideas, no wonder.

What a waste of time don't bother replying to any of my posts.

That's kind of funny, that you are now throwing a hissy fit like a spoiled little brat. Really kid? I posted to you several time verses from the Koran/Hadiths that I found violent, and you ignored them, several time, and then cried about theological debate or some such nonsense.

Pretty hypocritical of you eh? I thought so. But that's fine, I have no issue with not responding to your posts. It's already been demonstrated that you have one opinion, yours, and nothing will sway you from that, regardless of what it is.

Cheers.

 

[Vendetta]

Hey Ritalin,

I am no fan of any religion but Walid Shoebat is a nut job he is an ex muslim turned christian cindie. I seen him on a christian network and on talking about the 99 names of God one of Allah's names is "Al-Adar" or The destroyer. No where in the 99 names does that appear. To me, the fact that he could say a bold face lie tells me be has a twisted view of what islam is.

 

[Vendetta]

Walid the Nutjob

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Hey Ritalin,

I am no fan of any religion but Walid Shoebat is a nut job he is an ex muslim turned christian cindie. I seen him on a christian network and on talking about the 99 names of God one of Allah's names is "Al-Adar" or The destroyer. No where in the 99 names does that appear. To me, the fact that he could say a bold face lie tells me be has a twisted view of what islam is.

That is totally possible. As I said, I created this link to discuss the film, and get peoples takes on it. As I also stated I didn't know much about the guy.

I didn't do any sort of extensive research on him at all. But thanks for bringing that to light. Any info is always good info.

 

[Vendetta]

Yeah I will give you info in a bit