Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[.lava]

Of course. I am just more concerned about the victim, partly due to the situation I half mentioned about... basically I am biased because someone close to me was raped.

i am sensetive about rape too. not that i or someone i know as raped. i just find it one of the most disgusting crime ever


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[Kerr]

i am sorry to hear that. i never said it was less of a crime. please stop this. it is not even my intention to make it look like less criminal as i ask how it is proven when there was no physical damage

It was not my intension to upset you or anything, that specific comment about it not being less of a crime was because I misinterpreted what you wrote. I am only human, after all . Sorry.

here once a woman was drugged and raped. there were no physical damage but there was a video type where you can see she was not even awake. as a result man is arrested. i mean this kind of stuff. with today's technology you would not need witnesses to find out if someone was raped or who is the rapists. therefor i find it illogical people here keep asking about witnesses. but there could be incidents where a woman can't prove she was raped.

I know. Just saying physical damage and so are not needed to prove it. Sometimes you can figure out the truth by listening and assessing the stories in question (for example if the rapist claim that he was somewhere that when you look into it realize was a lie).

if it is possible to make sure simply by talking to victim, then it requires educated people to talk to victim. they must be experts

In some cases. In others it is not needed. It depend on the situation and the people involved.

 

[.lava]

We keep bringing up the idea of four male witnesses because, according to some versions of Sharia, these are required in order to prove rape.

TC

for one, there are no versions of Sharia. for two, people made up laws and applied it. that is a fact.

also, this male-female issue is negatively arcaic. according to this so-called law you talk about....let's say a dozen of women some how saw a woman being raped but they would not be considered as witness because they are women. what's that even mean? this is an insult to women.

and if rape victim had physical damage and if it is possible to prove who raped her by using DNA test, then who needs four males or females to prove it, for God's sake?

you really need to stop treating Muslims (and other religious people as well probably) as if we were blinded sheeps who follow anohter blind sheep who announced himself as sheperd. you are being injust to us. we, Muslims are not commanded to pretend living in 14th century. we are allowed to use present technologies. it is very much against Islam to ignore today's opportunies to live in a better society. that's how i know it. you may say, i am a bigot. well be my guest, i am not the one whom you're fooling



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[.lava]

It was not my intension to upset you or anything, that specific comment about it not being less of a crime was because I misinterpreted what you wrote. I am only human, after all . Sorry.

no worries, you excuse me please that i immediately become emotional on issues like this. i can't stand rape victim considered as the reason of rape. women suffer very badly in some Islamic nations. i can't begin to imagine



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[Sahar]

honey ,your thread is garbage from the start...next time you want me to share my view with you ,care to show some respect for me and my religion .

What did you expect muslims to say ? that it's horrible ? that it's unIslamic ?.. haven't we said that enough on these forums ?!!!..are we really obliged to apologize for every psycho on the planet for you to pleased with us ?! and if you sincerely want us to share our view ,why haven't you placed it in the Islam DIR instead of a debate forum ?!!

She is not interested in anything. And I agree with you. Participating in this thread is a waste of time.

 

[Smoke]

Can you provide an example where Christians did this?

This is known in anthropology as an honor killing, which if it did ever exist in Christianity, it was exceedingly rare.

Honor killings of "wayward" daughters occur among Palestinian and Jordanian Christians.

The killing of adulterous wives, cheating girlfriends, and their lovers has been common among Christians, but Christians don't call these murders "honor killings" but "crimes of passion," preferring the fiction that a woman's misconduct can cause an irresistible (and so justifiable) urge to murder her.

 

[Sahar]

For any one interested:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/92701-islamic-sharia-stance-rape.html

 

[Storm]

maro, not4me, and any other Muslim reading this...

I understand that you do not support this. However, I have to ask, how do you explain it? If Islam is so clearly against it, how did it happen?

Also, what are your personal reactions?

 

[kai]

For any one interested:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/92701-islamic-sharia-stance-rape.html

Thanks for this very informative information.

 

[.lava]

maro, not4me, and any other Muslim reading this...

I understand that you do not support this. However, I have to ask, how do you explain it? If Islam is so clearly against it, how did it happen?

Also, what are your personal reactions?

IMO they are either extremely ignorant or they are serving foreign forces. even better, they are both. unfortunately i can't recall any government of an Islamic nation who's not taking orders from outside. today only Western nations are getting benefits from wrong doings among Muslims. at the end Muslims are suffering because of their own authorities and they are also suffering because of Western nations. so both powers appear to be two sides of the same coin. they are very good friends.

i rather fight my own ignorance. that's how i make this world a better place. i let arrogance be toy of fools. i speak what i know and i speak the truth of Islam. does not matter if majority believes "stoning to death" or forcing Muslims to do or not to do things is Islamic. we know it well, it is NOT. it never was. soon everything that's added to Islam would go away. but first, we would pay for letting it happen and we Muslims would remember what it really means to turn to God then we would realize why Muslims earned such authorities in the first place. when it happens, no lie could survive anymore



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[Storm]

IMO they are either extremely ignorant or they are serving foreign forces. even better, they are both. unfortunately i can't recall any government of an Islamic nation who's not taking orders from outside. today only Western nations are getting benefits from wrong doings among Muslims. at the end Muslims are suffering because of their own authorities and they are also suffering because of Western nations. so both powers appear to be two sides of the same coin. they are very good friends.

i rather fight my own ignorance. that's how i make this world a better place. i let arrogance be toy of fools. i speak what i know and i speak the truth of Islam. does not matter if majority believes "stoning to death" or forcing Muslims to do or not to do things is Islamic. we know it well, it is NOT. it never was. soon everything that's added to Islam would go away. but first, we would pay for letting it happen and we Muslims would remember what it really means to turn to God then we would realize why Muslims earned such authorities in the first place. when it happens, no lie could survive anymore

Are you seriously saying this happened because it's what Westerners want?

 

[kai]

IMO they are either extremely ignorant or they are serving foreign forces. even better, they are both. unfortunately i can't recall any government of an Islamic nation who's not taking orders from outside. today only Western nations are getting benefits from wrong doings among Muslims. at the end Muslims are suffering because of their own authorities and they are also suffering because of Western nations. so both powers appear to be two sides of the same coin. they are very good friends.

i rather fight my own ignorance. that's how i make this world a better place. i let arrogance be toy of fools. i speak what i know and i speak the truth of Islam. does not matter if majority believes "stoning to death" or forcing Muslims to do or not to do things is Islamic. we know it well, it is NOT. it never was. soon everything that's added to Islam would go away. but first, we would pay for letting it happen and we Muslims would remember what it really means to turn to God then we would realize why Muslims earned such authorities in the first place. when it happens, no lie could survive anymore



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What? Lava do you think that in these rural villages Patriarchal cultural influences have flavoured their Islamic view. I know that you can step into the countryside of some countries and kind of step back in time.

 

[johnhanks]

I think it would be more accurate to say: "This is the kind of thing opportunistic people can use religion to justify". What I'm suggesting is that the agenda comes before the profession of faith, not as the result of.

I agree with this entirely. In fact, I''d go further and suggest it's one of the things religion has been for for as long as it's been a component of human culture: the sanctification and elevation from criticism of actions which are in fact entirely expedient and protective of the ruling faction's interests. It worked for Moses, it worked for the Crusaders, it worked for Henry VIII; it's still working for the RR in America, and for Ahmadinejad in Iran. Wrap yourself in religion, and you can justify anything.

 

[.lava]

What? Lava do you think that in these rural villages Patriarchal cultural influences have flavoured their Islamic view. I know that you can step into the countryside of some countries and kind of step back in time.

you mean like traditions? if yes then i say yes too. for example honor killings are traditional. men think they own women, they sell their own daughters for money, women never asked opinion, women are even less important than furniture. these people still exist


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[Autodidact]

i don't know if this incident happened or not yet i know this kind of stuff happens and it breaks my heart. but that's not the case or reason why i react your title, Autodidact. judgement they made is plain injustice though you call it Islamic justice which applies Islamic justice is not just. i am not even sure if giving fatwas was Islamic. i don't know any verse in Qur'an that give permission to anyone to make fatwas on other people.

the point is, if there were bunch of wrong doers who happened to be Muslims, their acts are called Islamic terror; if a Muslim father kills his daughter, that is represented as an Islamic killing; if a rape victim was hanged, that is announced as Islamic law....long story short, any act that terrorize people, any desicion that's injustice, any act that should be accepted as crime, anything ugly, anything bad; they are all called Islamic as long as it is done by Muslims as if source of wrong doings was Islam and those who do this kind of stuff would not do it if they were not Muslims. i disagree with that. that's not all because, present American government acts like terrorsits, rape victim would be asked if she liked it, Guantanamo torturers walk free, they send more and more soldiers even to new invaded nations, there are lots of killings inside USA, fathers there also kill their daughter, fathers rape their own daugthers, husband kills wife....every ugly and bad thing happens there too. because people commit crime regardless what religion they follow, regardless what they believe or not. then you would say they are considered crime but in Islamic nations they are not considered crime, it is done by authority. and i do admit, there is something terribly wrong. i don't know who they are or what they work for. i don't know intention of them. but i have serious doubts about them. because one does not need to be very well educated to know rape and adultery are not same. so i assume they know it. so, they either hate women or they hate Islam. so maybe they should be in power to show entire world how Islamic justice is as you see it yourself and announce it in the way expected, so that Western governments would not have so much complaints from their citizens about this cruel and injustice killings they perform in Muslim nations. after all maybe those authorities who make Muslims suffers is supported or rent or bought by USA. liars and betrayals who represent themselves as Muslims giving fatwas to torture Muslims and to make Islam look bad. where were they a decade ago? they are needed now. soon Muslims would react to injustice. i assure you, there's no reaction yet. those who sit on very important chairs would not punish every rape victim. they know it very well, in case they did, they could not stop civilians giving a hard reaction. so they do it once in awhile just to remind you or remind Western people what Western soldiers fighting againts. it is a lie. i don't buy it



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What's a lie?

I don't think it's me that's calling it Islamic justice so much as the Bangladeshi authorities who delegate the job of doing justice to the village council so they can administer Sharia law. My questions for you include:
Do you think it's a good idea to govern by Sharia law?
Do you think governments should go this route?
What was wrong with the decision of the village council?
What do you think the correct action should have been, and what is your scriptural or doctrinal basis for that?

Obviously, this sort of thing is an ongoing problem:
A Saudi judge has ordered a woman should be jailed for a year and receive 100 lashes after she was gang-raped, it was claimed last night.

Read more:
​

Stoning victim 'begged for mercy'


A young woman recently stoned to death in Somalia first pleaded for her life, a witness has told the BBC.
"Don't kill me, don't kill me," she said, according to the man who wanted to remain anonymous. A few minutes later, more than 50 men threw stones.
Human rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.
Initial reports had said she was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery before a Sharia court.
from here.

What is going on? What is causing this sort of thing? It's not just an isolated nut, it's sharia courts, governments, official courts of Islamic countries. What is going wrong with Islam, in your view?

What would need to happen for this sort of thing to stop?

We're seeing these cases in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Somalia...many different Muslim countries. What do you think the common element is?

My rudimentary understanding is that Islam seeks to be part of the government, as well as the religion. That under Islam there should not be separation of Mosque and state, and that many Muslims believe that Sharia courts should administer Islamic law. Whenever that happens, we see these outrageous atrocities and injustices against women. Is that what happens automatically? Is it possible to have Sharia and not have sexist oppresssion?

I haven't even gotten into capital punishment for homosexuality, laws against women driving, or any of that.

 

[Autodidact]

no, they apply some rule does not exists in Islam and they call it Islamic


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Would they say the same about you? How is a non-Muslim to judge whose interpretation is correct? What percentage of Muslims agree with you? What percentage with them?

 

[Autodidact]

friend, it is not about being real Muslim. to be a good Muslim one must learn Islam more and more. there is no end to it. there are Muslims who do not know how to read, most of people are living in poverty and all they want is to survive. even if they want to learn how to read and learn Qur'an, they depend on authorities. the real issue here is authority, not public. because it is all up to authority to provide education. there are tones of people who read Qur'an but they don't even know what it means. they are Muslims since they believe in certain things. some authorities scare Muslims by saying "don't try to understand Qur'an cos it is word of God and if you get it wrong you'd go hell" one can not become a better Muslims if he did not know what verses mean. so except for those who pretend to be Muslims, they are all Muslims but people have different level of education. there is always a path to become a better person, a better Muslim. if one thinks he is perfect Muslim, then he is a fool, a bigot....the Perfect One is long gone anyway



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It's the authorities who are making these unjust decisions, based--they say--on Islam.

 

[Autodidact]

why? is it difficult to prove someone was raped? there would be physical damage. i don't understand how come you made it related to religion


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Really? What gender are you? If a man holds a gun up to a woman's head and demands that he let her have sex with him, what physical damage would there be?

 

[.lava]

Are you seriously saying this happened because it's what Westerners want?

i am saying this kind of incidents is what Western governments need and what Islamic authority does today is only helping their cause. on one side there are some Islamic leaders who maintain peace among their people by punishing rape victim (for example) and on the other side there is a power who ruins entire nation to bring them democracy. they are perfect match if you ask me



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[.lava]

Really? What gender are you? If a man holds a gun up to a woman's head and demands that he let her have sex with him, what physical damage would there be?

brain damage



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