Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Autodidact]

for one, there are no versions of Sharia. for two, people made up laws and applied it. that is a fact.

also, this male-female issue is negatively arcaic. according to this so-called law you talk about....let's say a dozen of women some how saw a woman being raped but they would not be considered as witness because they are women. what's that even mean? this is an insult to women.

and if rape victim had physical damage and if it is possible to prove who raped her by using DNA test, then who needs four males or females to prove it, for God's sake?

you really need to stop treating Muslims (and other religious people as well probably) as if we were blinded sheeps who follow anohter blind sheep who announced himself as sheperd. you are being injust to us. we, Muslims are not commanded to pretend living in 14th century. we are allowed to use present technologies. it is very much against Islam to ignore today's opportunies to live in a better society. that's how i know it. you may say, i am a bigot. well be my guest, i am not the one whom you're fooling



.

isn't the problem other Muslims who do apply 14th century attitudes, not us for believing that they do? After all, I've presented 5 or 10 news stories about exactly that happening. isn't that the problem?

 

[Autodidact]

for one, there are no versions of Sharia. for two, people made up laws and applied it. that is a fact.

also, this male-female issue is negatively arcaic. according to this so-called law you talk about....let's say a dozen of women some how saw a woman being raped but they would not be considered as witness because they are women. what's that even mean? this is an insult to women.

and if rape victim had physical damage and if it is possible to prove who raped her by using DNA test, then who needs four males or females to prove it, for God's sake?

you really need to stop treating Muslims (and other religious people as well probably) as if we were blinded sheeps who follow anohter blind sheep who announced himself as sheperd. you are being injust to us. we, Muslims are not commanded to pretend living in 14th century. we are allowed to use present technologies. it is very much against Islam to ignore today's opportunies to live in a better society. that's how i know it. you may say, i am a bigot. well be my guest, i am not the one whom you're fooling



.

no worries, you excuse me please that i immediately become emotional on issues like this. i can't stand rape victim considered as the reason of rape. women suffer very badly in some Islamic nations. i can't begin to imagine



.

Well that's all I'm saying. Now, WHY do you think women suffer in Islamic nations?

 

[Autodidact]

She is not interested in anything. And I agree with you. Participating in this thread is a waste of time.

The more of this kind of response I see, the more it contributes to my idea that Muslims care more about the image of Islam than they do about Islamic injustice to women.

is the news report accurate? Do these things happen?

 

[maro]

maro, not4me, and any other Muslim reading this...

I understand that you do not support this. However, I have to ask, how do you explain it? If Islam is so clearly against it, how did it happen?

honestly ,i don't know....i feel something is wrong...either the media is making this up or those are people with agendas...All i know is that no one can be so ignorant and stupid to do such an insane action in the name of islam

In one of the links posted by autoaddict ,i read the name of my country ' Egypt' among many others who punish the raped ,instead of the rapist.....fortunately enough ,i realized that the whole article is crap and propaganda because i can be decieved about any other country but mine !

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The word Muslim, the word Christian, the word Judaism, and many other words like them, all mean something. Yet it is in the individuals with the most power that represent either the goodness or badness of each word.

.lava, clearly has the word Muslim, and it means something much different than what it means to those that committed such things as the OP.

For me, Christianity, meant something much different than what I see in the churches and governments that present it as "theirs".

Now that we all know it is the people and not the words that are bad, what are you going to do about it? Whine on a forum all day long about it? How about get on a plane and fly to Bangladesh and protest, fight, or do something. It is absolutely absurd to pretend you want answers from Muslims on the RF, as it is somehow going to help the situation in Bangladesh.

This is what is called internet fighters, people who sit behind a desk and talk smack.

 

[.lava]

I think this is the core of how we see the world differently. For me, there is no Islam other than its application. There is no method, no system, and no authority who can determine what is "True Islam." When I ask Muslims about it here at RF, they deny there is any such thing. For us non-Muslims, Islam is what Islam does AS ACTUALLY PRACTICED. Because some theoretical, ideal, abstract Islam doesn't seem to exist and has no effect on our world. The only Islam we need to be concerned about is the actual one, the one that exists and is practiced. And that one--the one that exists in the world, seems to include gross sexism, horrible injustice, atrocities, terrorism, violence, intolerance, suicide bombings, and a lot of other very bad things.

If you want to assert that those things aren't Islamic, then the people you need to be talking to aren't so much us non-Muslims, as the Muslims who are doing them and claiming that they are Islamic. This is an internal Islamic issue that YOU need to straighten out. We can't help you with that.

In other words, if you want us to stop seeing Muslims as sexist, unjust, violent terrorists, the only way to do that is to stop Muslims from doing those things in the name of Islam.

and we all would embrace our destiny for that to happen. yet there is one fact still remains. your generalization includes me, people like me, probably millions of people who share what i say here. are you sure you are fair to them? these people are the ones who die in cross fire most of the time. we all want to clean practice from stuff that's added by people and it is going to happen, just not to shut you up, friend. that is not purpose of Muslims who live and die for Allah. so speak as you want. if you generalize every single Muslim as you do, then you make it easier for Western to kill us. they recognize Muslims from what they wear, not what they say or do. they don't care if they are really terrorists or not. thanks to speeches like yours. sexist, unjust, violent terrorists...consider yourself done your national duty


.

 

[Autodidact]

For any one interested:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/92701-islamic-sharia-stance-rape.html

In practice, do many Sharia courts require a woman to produce male witnesses (or a confession) to prove rape? What happens to Muslim women who claim rape and cannot sustain this burden?

Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasn’t raped, so she must be guilty of zina.
Moreover, the prosecution has been careful to point out that Tiouli didn’t call for help. "According to Islamic Sharia," says the Nigerian Imam Mallam Muhammad Sani Isa, "it cannot be considered rape unless you asked for help."
from here.


Is this true?

 

[Autodidact]

IMO they are either extremely ignorant or they are serving foreign forces.

from where?

even better, they are both. unfortunately i can't recall any government of an Islamic nation who's not taking orders from outside.

Where are they taking their orders from?

today only Western nations are getting benefits from wrong doings among Muslims. at the end Muslims are suffering because of their own authorities and they are also suffering because of Western nations. so both powers appear to be two sides of the same coin. they are very good friends.

What are you saying? Are you trying to say that these injustices are not the fault of the Muslims and Muslim nations who perpetrate them, but the fault of Western nations who oppose them? Cuz that sounds pretty crazy to me.

i rather fight my own ignorance. that's how i make this world a better place. i let arrogance be toy of fools. i speak what i know and i speak the truth of Islam. does not matter if majority believes "stoning to death" or forcing Muslims to do or not to do things is Islamic. we know it well, it is NOT. it never was. soon everything that's added to Islam would go away. but first, we would pay for letting it happen and we Muslims would remember what it really means to turn to God then we would realize why Muslims earned such authorities in the first place. when it happens, no lie could survive anymore

If you want it to go away, you need to do a lot more than pray.

 

[Autodidact]

you mean like traditions? if yes then i say yes too. for example honor killings are traditional. men think they own women, they sell their own daughters for money, women never asked opinion, women are even less important than furniture. these people still exist


.

Why? What should be done about it? Why is it more prevalent in Muslim countries?

 

[Autodidact]

you mean like traditions? if yes then i say yes too. for example honor killings are traditional. men think they own women, they sell their own daughters for money, women never asked opinion, women are even less important than furniture. these people still exist


.

brain damage



.

I'm guessing the answer to my first question is: male. Am I right?

 

[Autodidact]

they could not. because things i could say about Islam is in Qur'an. but as it happened before here on RF, Muslims might think that i am "only Qur'an" Muslim which means i don't follow hadiths -which is not very true but we know that there are fabricated hadiths and we refuse to obey word of men as if it is God's; punishments like stoning people to death is not written in Qur'an, it is in hadiths.



it is very difficult if you're not familiar with Arabic language.



we are minority



.

Bolded for emphasis. MOST Muslims--not a whacked out groups of crazies, but the MAJORITY--agree with village council. And you blame non-Muslims for leaping to the conclusion that there is a problem with Islam?!?! For us, Islam = what the majority of Muslims say it is. As you acknowledge, it's very hard for us to deduce for ourselves.

I would go so far as to say it would be wrong for us, non-Muslims, to presume to tell Muslims what their religion dictates.

So we're left with the inescapable conclusion that Islam, as actually practiced by the majority, does very, very bad things.

But instead of being angry about that, the Muslims in this thread are all angry at ME for coming to that extremely reasonable conclusion.

*shakes head in wonder*

 

[.lava]

The more of this kind of response I see, the more it contributes to my idea that Muslims care more about the image of Islam than they do about Islamic injustice to women.

is the news report accurate? Do these things happen?

i personally would not feel more sorry or more worried for Muslim women who was raped than an American woman who was raped. i care specially for crimes against women because it's always been women who was oppressed, tortured and humiliated. yet it is beyond me, no way i can help any women in Pakistan or USA. so i feel helpless about it. though if you could come up with worry for women without making cruel generalizations and claims about our path, our belief then we could talk. but it can't happen because of your general attitude against Islam. maybe you rather attack Islam than wrong doing itself or wrong doers themselves and therefor maybe you leave us no choice but to focus on Islam, not the incident itself


.

 

[Autodidact]

they could not. because things i could say about Islam is in Qur'an. but as it happened before here on RF, Muslims might think that i am "only Qur'an" Muslim which means i don't follow hadiths -which is not very true but we know that there are fabricated hadiths and we refuse to obey word of men as if it is God's; punishments like stoning people to death is not written in Qur'an, it is in hadiths.



it is very difficult if you're not familiar with Arabic language.



we are minority



.

yes, i know and i believe there is something wrong about authorities of Muslim nations, almost every one of them; Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran...



.

What is the common factor here? They're all Muslim nations. Isn't it reasonable for us to conclude that Islamic rule is a bad thing? Because when it's implemented, you get bad results.

 

[Autodidact]

the darkness and cruelty that's represented as Islam and source of all wrong doings in Muslim nations is Islam...that is the lie i am referring to.
.

The lie is that what calls itself Islam, the religion that the majority of Muslims follow, actually is Islam? In your view, how many True Muslims are there in the world? About what percentage of people-who-call-themselves-Muslim really are? Why do we only see these problems in countries-that-call-themselves-Muslim?

Let's take what you call false Islam and call it Frobnick. It sounds like we agree that Frobnick is a very bad thing, which we should all resist and combat at every opportunity. True?

 

[Autodidact]

honestly ,i don't know....i feel something is wrong...either the media is making this up or those are people with agendas...All i know is that no one can be so ignorant and stupid to do such an insane action in the name of islam

In one of the links posted by autoaddict ,i read the name of my country ' Egypt' among many others who punish the raped ,instead of the rapist.....fortunately enough ,i realized that the whole article is crap and propaganda because i can be decieved about any other country but mine !

So your position is that all these news reports--the BBC, CNN, Amnesty International, etc., etc. are all lying? These things don't happen? All of these consistent reports from all over the world are just false?!? That's what you want us to believe?!?!?

 

[Riverwolf]

honestly ,i don't know....i feel something is wrong...either the media is making this up or those are people with agendas...All i know is that no one can be so ignorant and stupid to do such an insane action in the name of islam

In one of the links posted by autoaddict ,i read the name of my country ' Egypt' among many others who punish the raped ,instead of the rapist.....fortunately enough ,i realized that the whole article is crap and propaganda because i can be decieved about any other country but mine !

I did have bad reservations about those two articles, as well as articles of like nature.

Considering the West is, for all intents and purposes, at war with Islam, it does follow that we shouldn't take anti-Islamic news propaganda articles at face-value.

 

[.lava]

Bolded for emphasis. MOST Muslims--not a whacked out groups of crazies, but the MAJORITY--agree with village council. And you blame non-Muslims for leaping to the conclusion that there is a problem with Islam?!?! For us, Islam = what the majority of Muslims say it is. As you acknowledge, it's very hard for us to deduce for ourselves.

I would go so far as to say it would be wrong for us, non-Muslims, to presume to tell Muslims what their religion dictates.

So we're left with the inescapable conclusion that Islam, as actually practiced by the majority, does very, very bad things.

But instead of being angry about that, the Muslims in this thread are all angry at ME for coming to that extremely reasonable conclusion.

*shakes head in wonder*

have you ever seen Muslims waiting in km long lines to throw just one stone? have you ever compared the number of people who gather together to stone someone to death to actual population of the area? have you ever considered that those who is able to throw stones at a living creature are also minority in public?

majority would follow religious leaders. when religious leaders approve certain hadiths were fabricated and stoning is not Islamic at all, only a minority would oppose to it and that would be the ones who's able to throw stones


.

 

[Autodidact]

and we all would embrace our destiny for that to happen. yet there is one fact still remains. your generalization includes me, people like me, probably millions of people who share what i say here. are you sure you are fair to them? these people are the ones who die in cross fire most of the time. we all want to clean practice from stuff that's added by people and it is going to happen, just not to shut you up, friend. that is not purpose of Muslims who live and die for Allah. so speak as you want. if you generalize every single Muslim as you do, then you make it easier for Western to kill us. they recognize Muslims from what they wear, not what they say or do. they don't care if they are really terrorists or not. thanks to speeches like yours. sexist, unjust, violent terrorists...consider yourself done your national duty


.

I have never generalized every single Muslim. Read my posts.
You yourself told me you're in the minority. That means there are billions of people who, according to you, are doing it wrong. The majority, mainstream Islam, according to you--you agree--does evil.
If you, the people who disagree with them, won't stop them, then you leave it to the rest of us to do so. Is that what you want? Do you join us in combating the evil majority Islam?

 

[Riverwolf]

So your position is that all these news reports--the BBC, CNN, Amnesty International, etc., etc. are all lying? These things don't happen? All of these consistent reports from all over the world are just false?!? That's what you want us to believe?!?!?

They're rife with bias, propaganda, false information, etc...

While I don't think any of them are as bad as Faux News, I don't think they're giving us the full story. Remember: they need to make money, and that is the thing they focus on: stories that will make money. Considering the West is basically at war with Islam, it follows that news reports that paint Islam in a bad light would make money.

It's not that these things don't happen, but that they may not be as common as they would lead us to believe.

For clarification, that doesn't mean we should just ignore them; as I said, they're not as bad as Faux News. I do check the BBC headlines now and then, just to stay somewhat updated. But I don't take them at face-value.

 

[Autodidact]

i personally would not feel more sorry or more worried for Muslim women who was raped than an American woman who was raped. i care specially for crimes against women because it's always been women who was oppressed, tortured and humiliated. yet it is beyond me, no way i can help any women in Pakistan or USA. so i feel helpless about it. though if you could come up with worry for women without making cruel generalizations and claims about our path, our belief then we could talk. but it can't happen because of your general attitude against Islam. maybe you rather attack Islam than wrong doing itself or wrong doers themselves and therefor maybe you leave us no choice but to focus on Islam, not the incident itself


.

1. An American woman who is raped can safely report it to the authorities without having to worry about being punished herself.
2. But you agree that the wrong-doers includes the majority of Muslims, correct?

I would say hail to you minority, good luck and give you all support in combating the evil majority. I'm on your side. Now, what are we going to do about the problem?