Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Autodidact]

no need to discuss over this. i believe Qur'an is word of God, not human and you don't


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O.K. fine. What does the qu'ran say about rape? What does the Qur'an say about who should make these legal decisions, what the process should be?

 

[Autodidact]

how does that work? if a woman says that she was raped by certain man and she did not have any physical damage, man still would be charged as rapist, is that how it is in your nation? how is it easier to prove it with no Sharia applied?


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Well, you tell us. What is Sharia law concerning rape and evidence?

In the U.S., in general, rape is non-consensual sexual contact or intercourse. In most states, as mine, there is no distinction between gender--anyone can commit the crime or be a victim of it. General rules of evidence and criminal procedure apply. Except for minors, consent is a defense--a common one.

 

[Storm]

i am saying this kind of incidents is what Western governments need and what Islamic authority does today is only helping their cause. on one side there are some Islamic leaders who maintain peace among their people by punishing rape victim (for example) and on the other side there is a power who ruins entire nation to bring them democracy. they are perfect match if you ask me

Wow. Just... wow.

 

[.lava]

Would they say the same about you?

they could not. because things i could say about Islam is in Qur'an. but as it happened before here on RF, Muslims might think that i am "only Qur'an" Muslim which means i don't follow hadiths -which is not very true but we know that there are fabricated hadiths and we refuse to obey word of men as if it is God's; punishments like stoning people to death is not written in Qur'an, it is in hadiths.

How is a non-Muslim to judge whose interpretation is correct?

it is very difficult if you're not familiar with Arabic language.

What percentage of Muslims agree with you? What percentage with them?

we are minority



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[Riverwolf]

To test it, we would need a thread that asked what Islam had to say about these issues without being so blatantly biased as to scare away the Muslims.

As for my assumption, consider this analogy. Let's say I was with my friends when one of them noticed you and launched into an incredibly bigoted tirade against you and your ethnicity, religion and/or sexual orientation. How would you take my silence in such a case?

TC

I would take it as silence. Nothing more. Maybe you did not wish to help, maybe you are not equipped to help, maybe you are aware that it is my fight and I must do it alone.

I would bear no ill grudge against you.

 

[.lava]

It's the authorities who are making these unjust decisions, based--they say--on Islam.

yes, i know and i believe there is something wrong about authorities of Muslim nations, almost every one of them; Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran...



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[Autodidact]

Problems sometimes arise when an unmarried or divorced woman becomes pregnant as a result of a rape. Some Sharia courts do not recognize DNA testing or the evaluation of possible paternity by other blood tests. The case often results in a "she-said, he said" situation. Sometimes, the alleged rapist is found not-guilty because his involvement cannot be proven. But if an unmarried woman becomes pregnant, she can be assumed to be guilty of extra-marital sexual activity and can be executed. If she claims that she was raped and is unable to prove her case, then she will probably receive severe punishment, because she would be assumed guilty of making a false accusation.

from here.

Muslims: Is this true?

 

[Riverwolf]

As a practical matter, I don't think religions can be successful without childhood indoctrination. Indoctrination is not education, it is the opposite. It is forcing someone to believe.

On the other hand, atheism is just the default stance; we are born into it. There is no need to teach anything.

TC

Therefore, seeing as I was born and raised without any religion and without any indoctrination (and without being taught atheistic philosophies), it should follow that I am not religious.

Guess what? Study of world philosophy, once I was in college, led me to Vedanta. I am now an independent Vedanta Shaivite.

 

[Autodidact]

(A) "Proof of Zina (adultery) or Zina Bil-Jabr (rape) liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:
(a) The accused makes confession or
(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses"[10]
(B) "Proof of adultery or rape liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:
(a) The accused makes confession, or
(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses."[11]
(C) "Punishment will take place when Zina or rape have been proved by witness."[12]
(D) Sharia Law rejects the witness of women in Hudood cases.[13]
(E) "The evidence of women is originally inadmissible on account of their weakness of understanding, want of memory and incapacity of governing."[14]

from here

Is this accurate?

 

[Autodidact]

how does that work? if a woman says that she was raped by certain man and she did not have any physical damage, man still would be charged as rapist, is that how it is in your nation? how is it easier to prove it with no Sharia applied?


.

That may be your standard, but I think it's an unusual standard for people to apply to folks of their own religion. For instance, I don't see many Christians assume that other Christians support Fred Phelps unless those other Christians expressly denounce Phelps. But under your standard, every Christian who did not denounce Fred Phelps to you would share in whatever you blamed Fred Phelps for, no?

When I post a Fred Phelps thread, Christians fall all over themselves denouncing him, declaring that he's not Christian, and so forth. I haven't had any Christians claim that I'm oppressing them by talking about the issue. And it doesn't surprise me that they want to, because he's so evil--they're eager to distance themselves from him.

 

[Riverwolf]

She is not interested in anything. And I agree with you. Participating in this thread is a waste of time.

As thought criminal has proven time and time again.

I told him Muslims are completely ignored when they defend themselves.

 

[Autodidact]

heres a rather worrying article about women in Pakistan

Article: "Rape and Hudood Ordinance: Perversions of Justice in the Name of Islam"

That article seems very thoughtful and informative. The issue turns out to be amazingly complex--downright Byzantine. The upshot of the whole thing seems to be that women suffer unjustly. I would appreciate it if any Muslims here would read Dr. Farooq's article and respond. I also don't know who Dr. Farooq is or how authoritative he is.

 

[Storm]

Therefore, seeing as I was born and raised without any religion and without any indoctrination (and without being taught atheistic philosophies), it should follow that I am not religious.

Guess what? Study of world philosophy, once I was in college, led me to Vedanta. I am now an independent Vedanta Shaivite.

I have a similar history, though my path is quite different.

 

[Autodidact]

That's not a great example, because Phelps is recognized as an extremist, so we don't expect most Christians to agree with him. A better example would be telling me you're a Southern Baptist without immediately saying that you support equal rights for gays, I would be right to assume that you oppose them, as that is the official stance of your church.

TC

What TC said. Or if, say, you're Mormon and you support same-sex marriage. You would need to say so to disassociate yourself from the Church's official stance.

 

[.lava]

What's a lie?

the darkness and cruelty that's represented as Islam and source of all wrong doings in Muslim nations is Islam...that is the lie i am referring to.

I don't think it's me that's calling it Islamic justice so much as the Bangladeshi authorities who delegate the job of doing justice to the village council so they can administer Sharia law. My questions for you include:
Do you think it's a good idea to govern by Sharia law?
Do you think governments should go this route?
What was wrong with the decision of the village council?
What do you think the correct action should have been, and what is your scriptural or doctrinal basis for that?

Obviously, this sort of thing is an ongoing problem:
A Saudi judge has ordered a woman should be jailed for a year and receive 100 lashes after she was gang-raped, it was claimed last night.

Read more: ​

Stoning victim 'begged for mercy'


A young woman recently stoned to death in Somalia first pleaded for her life, a witness has told the BBC.
"Don't kill me, don't kill me," she said, according to the man who wanted to remain anonymous. A few minutes later, more than 50 men threw stones.
Human rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.
Initial reports had said she was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery before a Sharia court.
from here.

What is going on? What is causing this sort of thing? It's not just an isolated nut, it's sharia courts, governments, official courts of Islamic countries. What is going wrong with Islam, in your view?

stoning people existed before Islam. today they do it because it exists in hadith books. although punishment of adultery for a Muslim woman is written in Qur'an and there is not even one single verse about stoning, they do it. we are told those hadiths are fabricated because they are against whole knowledge of Qur'an. such as "Let there be no compulsion in religion". today Islamic scholars interpret this verse as "let there be no compulsion in religion until people convert to Islam." though interpretation is not needed. no compulsion in religion means no compulsion in religion. noone is given right to force women to wear headgear, noone could be forced to perform salaats, if someone wants to leave Islam it is nobody's business to punish him...etc. because there is a difference between sin and crime. so the source of all wrongs in Muslim nations today could be summarized as; people left Qur'an. instead of reading and understanding Qur'an, they listen to Imams and Imams tell people what they think or what that or this guy who lived 2 centuries ago thought...commentaries...and most of people seem not to give a chance to thought that there could be fabricated hadiths. however some hadiths were removed by hadith books that's considered fake, unfortunately who decides which one is fake is also same Imams and leaders today.

What would need to happen for this sort of thing to stop?

it is already happening. what's happening in Iraq and other nations is a result of abandoning Qur'an. until fire touches you, you would not really know how it feels like to be burnt and that fire would touch every Muslim. because we earned it, by supporting cruelty in the name of God. you can't simply use name of God, support cruelty and have nothing in return. you'd see it in time.

We're seeing these cases in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Somalia...many different Muslim countries. What do you think the common element is?

turning away from Qur'an and Tasavvuf, abandoning path that leads God.

My rudimentary understanding is that Islam seeks to be part of the government, as well as the religion. That under Islam there should not be separation of Mosque and state, and that many Muslims believe that Sharia courts should administer Islamic law. Whenever that happens, we see these outrageous atrocities and injustices against women. Is that what happens automatically? Is it possible to have Sharia and not have sexist oppresssion?

I haven't even gotten into capital punishment for homosexuality, laws against women driving, or any of that.

Muslims need to turn to God. when they do, then those oppressive men would realize women belong to God, not to men



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[Autodidact]

you haven't answered my question either. i asked first, answer then. how could you prove a rape if there was no physical damage?



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Witness testimony, including the testimony of the parties.
DNA testing.
Circumstantial evidence, including alibi, consistency of each of the party's stories.
Past actions of each of the parties.
Testimony about prior relationship, if any.
Drug and alcohol evidence.
Testimony of other parties, before, during and after the alleged crime.

Think of it like robbery--do you need to show injuries to prove you were robbed?

 

[Autodidact]

i see no errors in Islam itself. i see error in applications.

I think this is the core of how we see the world differently. For me, there is no Islam other than its application. There is no method, no system, and no authority who can determine what is "True Islam." When I ask Muslims about it here at RF, they deny there is any such thing. For us non-Muslims, Islam is what Islam does AS ACTUALLY PRACTICED. Because some theoretical, ideal, abstract Islam doesn't seem to exist and has no effect on our world. The only Islam we need to be concerned about is the actual one, the one that exists and is practiced. And that one--the one that exists in the world, seems to include gross sexism, horrible injustice, atrocities, terrorism, violence, intolerance, suicide bombings, and a lot of other very bad things.

If you want to assert that those things aren't Islamic, then the people you need to be talking to aren't so much us non-Muslims, as the Muslims who are doing them and claiming that they are Islamic. This is an internal Islamic issue that YOU need to straighten out. We can't help you with that.

In other words, if you want us to stop seeing Muslims as sexist, unjust, violent terrorists, the only way to do that is to stop Muslims from doing those things in the name of Islam.

 

[.lava]

Witness testimony, including the testimony of the parties.
DNA testing.
Circumstantial evidence, including alibi, consistency of each of the party's stories.
Past actions of each of the parties.
Testimony about prior relationship, if any.
Drug and alcohol evidence.
Testimony of other parties, before, during and after the alleged crime.

Think of it like robbery--do you need to show injuries to prove you were robbed?

i never said there must be physical damage to prove rape. i was simply asking. thanks for answer by the way. that's how it should be


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[Autodidact]

i am sorry to hear that. i never said it was less of a crime. please stop this. it is not even my intention to make it look like less criminal as i ask how it is proven when there was no physical damage. here once a woman was drugged and raped. there were no physical damage but there was a video type where you can see she was not even awake. as a result man is arrested. i mean this kind of stuff. with today's technology you would not need witnesses to find out if someone was raped or who is the rapists. therefor i find it illogical people here keep asking about witnesses. but there could be incidents where a woman can't prove she was raped.

if it is possible to make sure simply by talking to victim, then it requires educated people to talk to victim. they must be experts


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What if a woman is raped, but cannot prove it. Should she then be charged with adultery? What does the qu'ran say about this? What is your view?

 

[Autodidact]

why don't you start a new thread about Sharia your perceived view of sharia or whichever country is using a versiojn of sharia or about Rape in Bangladesh or wherever . Instead of badgering Lava.

Because that's exactly what this thread is about.