Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Thought Criminal]

qucikly learn? really? i am sorry but since i got this place and have chance to talk to Christians i basicly stopped talking about Christianity and began to ask questions. does not matter if they have different angles. i have my own personal intellect and conscience and as a believer of a loving creator, i don't expect any illogical and cruel thing from religion. if there is then there is a human factor in it. because it is human who is cruel and injust. there are a few thousands of verses in Qur'an. when we study, we learn relations between verses. noone could understand it from reading one verse or two. you got to study it. when you do, it is clear. though there are inner meanings, there is also one meaning for all to see on the surface. and that obvious one is meant for anyone who reads it. i don't mean to be rude but i think you are being irresponsible. that's a choice, of course but not good enough to tell your opinion by reasoning that i could take account


.

Have a nice day.

TC

 

[.lava]

how can I judge which Muslim is "real"?

TC

friend, it is not about being real Muslim. to be a good Muslim one must learn Islam more and more. there is no end to it. there are Muslims who do not know how to read, most of people are living in poverty and all they want is to survive. even if they want to learn how to read and learn Qur'an, they depend on authorities. the real issue here is authority, not public. because it is all up to authority to provide education. there are tones of people who read Qur'an but they don't even know what it means. they are Muslims since they believe in certain things. some authorities scare Muslims by saying "don't try to understand Qur'an cos it is word of God and if you get it wrong you'd go hell" one can not become a better Muslims if he did not know what verses mean. so except for those who pretend to be Muslims, they are all Muslims but people have different level of education. there is always a path to become a better person, a better Muslim. if one thinks he is perfect Muslim, then he is a fool, a bigot....the Perfect One is long gone anyway



.

 

[YmirGF]

What makes things awkward here is that it is virtually impossible for a woman to prove she was raped under Sharia Law.

 

[.lava]

All religions are created by us: there is no God. Some religions are very illogical and cruel, some less so. None are true.

TC

well, if you are using this filter as you perceive people who's following religions to judge religion itself, then i see no hope you could find the truth about it



.

 

[Thought Criminal]

friend, it is not about being real Muslim. to be a good Muslim one must learn Islam more and more. there is no end to it. there are Muslims who do not know how to read, most of people are living in poverty and all they want is to survive. even if they want to learn how to read and learn Qur'an, they depend on authorities. the real issue here is authority, not public. because it is all up to authority to provide education. there are tones of people who read Qur'an but they don't even know what it means. they are Muslims since they believe in certain things. some authorities scare Muslims by saying "don't try to understand Qur'an cos it is word of God and if you get it wrong you'd go hell" one can not become a better Muslims if he did not know what verses mean. so except for those who pretend to be Muslims, they are all Muslims but people have different level of education. there is always a path to become a better person, a better Muslim. if one thinks he is perfect Muslim, then he is a fool, a bigot....the Perfect One is long gone anyway
.

Sure, some followers are going to be ignorant, while others will actually understand the doctrine they're following. However, this doesn't make the doctrine good, nor does it mean that those who ignorantly do good are worse than those who do bad because that's what the doctrine actually tells them to do.

The example brought up a moment ago in this thread is that Sharia makes it very difficult for a woman to prove she was raped. This is a problem with Islam, as Sharia is simply Islamic law.

TC

 

[Thought Criminal]

well, if you are using this filter as you perceive people who's following religions to judge religion itself, then i see no hope you could find the truth about it



.

There is no religion except that which people follow. There is no perfect Islam that is always right and good. That is as unsupported a belief as theism itself. Islam is as Islam does, not as it imagines itself, or sells itself.

TC

 

[.lava]

Sure, some followers are going to be ignorant, while others will actually understand the doctrine they're following. However, this doesn't make the doctrine good, nor does it mean that those who ignorantly do good are worse than those who do bad because that's what the doctrine actually tells them to do.

The example brought up a moment ago in this thread is that Sharia makes it very difficult for a woman to prove she was raped. This is a problem with Islam, as Sharia is simply Islamic law.

TC

why? is it difficult to prove someone was raped? there would be physical damage. i don't understand how come you made it related to religion


.

 

[.lava]

There is no religion except that which people follow. There is no perfect Islam that is always right and good. That is as unsupported a belief as theism itself. Islam is as Islam does, not as it imagines itself, or sells itself.

TC

no need to discuss over this. i believe Qur'an is word of God, not human and you don't


.

 

[Thought Criminal]

why? is it difficult to prove someone was raped? there would be physical damage. i don't understand how come you made it related to religion


.

No, there would not necessarily be physical damage. Rape is sex without consent, not sex with physical force. If a man tells a woman that he will kill her if she doesn't have sex with him, she may well be scared enough not to resist, but that doesn't mean she consented. After all, it was under duress.

In any case, the relation is that, to the extent that Sharia makes it hard for a woman to prove rape, it penalizes the victim.

TC

 

[Thought Criminal]

no need to discuss over this. i believe Qur'an is word of God, not human and you don't


.

Of course I don't. Neither would you, unless you were subject to childhood indoctrination into Islam. The difference between us is that I wasn't intellectually abused, because I was not so unfortunate as to be raised a Muslim. I was lucky, not better.

TC

 

[.lava]

No, there would not necessarily be physical damage. Rape is sex without consent, not sex with physical force. If a man tells a woman that he will kill her if she doesn't have sex with him, she may well be scared enough not to resist, but that doesn't mean she consented. After all, it was under duress.

In any case, the relation is that, to the extent that Sharia makes it hard for a woman to prove rape, it penalizes the victim.

TC

how does that work? if a woman says that she was raped by certain man and she did not have any physical damage, man still would be charged as rapist, is that how it is in your nation? how is it easier to prove it with no Sharia applied?


.

 

[.lava]

Of course I don't. Neither would you, unless you were subject to childhood indoctrination into Islam. The difference between us is that I wasn't intellectually abused, because I was not so unfortunate as to be raised a Muslim. I was lucky, not better.

TC

think twice before you make it personal. you know nothing about me or my family



.

 

[Thought Criminal]

how does that work? if a woman says that she was raped by certain man and she did not have any physical damage, man still would be charged as rapist, is that how it is in your nation? how is it easier to prove it with no Sharia applied? .

I didn't bring up the rape under Sharia example, so I did a quick search and found a number of pages that said much the same as this one: Why do women need four adult male witnesses to prove rape? Where is a woman going to get four non-participating male witnesses (assuming non-participants would have helped her and stopped the rape)? | Answerbag

As for whether the woman's word is enough to prove rape, I would suggest that it would not typically meet the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it's not like she needs four male witnesses; an impossible burden. Likewise, if the rapist is acquitted, she is not at risk of execution.

TC

 

[Thought Criminal]

think twice before you make it personal. you know nothing about me or my family



.

This isn't personal, it's statistical. People pretty much believe what they're raised as. There's a window of opportunity for conversion as they transition into adulthood, but barring trauma or incarceration, they're not likely to stray far.

TC

 

[.lava]

I didn't bring up the rape under Sharia example, so I did a quick search and found a number of pages that said much the same as this one: Why do women need four adult male witnesses to prove rape? Where is a woman going to get four non-participating male witnesses (assuming non-participants would have helped her and stopped the rape)? | Answerbag

As for whether the woman's word is enough to prove rape, I would suggest that it would not typically meet the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it's not like she needs four male witnesses; an impossible burden. Likewise, if the rapist is acquitted, she is not at risk of execution.

TC

i wonder where this law is written. four males to witness rape...wow...maybe after all we would need a circus full of people to witness murderer to make sure someone was stabbed to death for dozen times...wow

amazing


.

 

[Thought Criminal]

i wonder where this law is written. four males to witness rape...wow...maybe after all we would need a circus full of people to witness murderer to make sure someone was stabbed to death for dozen times...wow

amazing


.

Well, CNN is quoted as saying: "Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is some interpretations of Sharia, or Islamic law. Some authorities rule for a rape to be validated, victims must have four witnesses to the crime. If not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery."

Is CNN wrong?

TC

 

[.lava]

This isn't personal, it's statistical. People pretty much believe what they're raised as. There's a window of opportunity for conversion as they transition into adulthood, but barring trauma or incarceration, they're not likely to stray far.

TC

go read what you wrote, friend. it is personal and i am not a number in statistics, nobody is


.

 

[Thought Criminal]

go read what you wrote, friend. it is personal and i am not a number in statistics, nobody is


.

If I'm wrong, correct me. Were you not indoctrinated in Islam from early childhood?

TC

 

[.lava]

Is CNN wrong?

TC

i really need to stop talking now cos your question makes me naughty. yep, that is my weakness, feel like i wanna mock you but i am not allowed to mock people

is CNN wrong? is CNN wrong? :areyoucra is CNN wrong?...:angel2:


.

 

[Thought Criminal]

i really need to stop talking now cos your question makes me naughty. yep, that is my weakness, feel like i wanna mock you but i am not allowed to mock people

is CNN wrong? is CNN wrong? :areyoucra is CNN wrong?...:angel2:


.

Is that a "yes"?

TC