Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Riverwolf]

In a context where you would be expected to speak out against those who do evil in your name, silence is not neutral.

TC

I fail to see why such expectations would be present, knowing that several threads just like this one have popped up time and time again, and when they do defend themselves, they're ignored.

It's like expecting a person who has been successfully tricked to be fooled by the exact same trick again.

 

[Thought Criminal]

I fail to see why such expectations would be present, knowing that several threads just like this one have popped up time and time again, and when they do defend themselves, they're ignored.

It's like expecting a person who has been successfully tricked to be fooled by the exact same trick again.

Like I said, this can be tested.

TC

 

[Riverwolf]

Like I said, this can be tested.

TC

Then test it.

But remember: it could very well be that it is better to ignore false accusations altogether. "Fighting back" is not always the best action to take.

Assuming that silence means guilty just seems too... assuming, to be logical.

 

[Thought Criminal]

Then test it.

But remember: it could very well be that it is better to ignore false accusations altogether. "Fighting back" is not always the best action to take.

Assuming that silence means guilty just seems too... assuming, to be logical.

To test it, we would need a thread that asked what Islam had to say about these issues without being so blatantly biased as to scare away the Muslims.

As for my assumption, consider this analogy. Let's say I was with my friends when one of them noticed you and launched into an incredibly bigoted tirade against you and your ethnicity, religion and/or sexual orientation. How would you take my silence in such a case?

TC

 

[kai]

I don't really blame them, seeing as how whenever they try, it seems that more often than not, they're completely ignored.

well not everyone ignores Muslim opinions , i certainly dont.

 

[kai]

who has the authority to speak for "Islam" ? or all Muslims? Muslims can only give their own perspective on any given subject. How would say an Egyptian know what the Heck that was all about in bangladesh?

 

[Thought Criminal]

who has the authority to speak for "Islam" ? or all Muslims? Muslims can only give their own perspective on any given subject. How would say an Egyptian know what the Heck that was all about in bangladesh?

Everyone has the authority to speak for their own beliefs. Your Egyptian might know nothing about what happened in Bangladesh, except that punishing the victim is wrong. And that's really all they need to know, and all they need to say.

TC

 

[kai]

Everyone has the authority to speak for their own beliefs. Your Egyptian might know nothing about what happened in Bangladesh, except that punishing the victim is wrong. And that's really all they need to know, and all they need to say.

TC

sure , but why should they? oh because you want to know if its Islamic? then like i said its up to them . At the end of the day its the Bangladeshi's who are responsible for their own actions, whether they consider it Islamic is the real question, and why.

 

[Thought Criminal]

sure , but why should they? oh because you want to know if its Islamic? then like i said its up to them . At the end of the day its the Bangladeshi's who are responsible for their own actions, whether they consider it Islamic is the real question, and why.

Consider the analogy I offered to Riverwolf. If I stayed silent as my friend insulted them, it would be reasonable to assume that I am endorsing these actions. After all, I'm standing right next to this bigot, saying not a word as they spew bigotry.

If one person does something horrible, in the name of Islam, then anyone else who likewise claims to be acting in the name of Islam is going to have to disavow those horrible acts, else people will take their silence as an endorsement.

Now, you can argue that we shouldn't read so much into silence, but it's pointless. We can and do draw inferences from inaction, and they know it, so if they don't want us to mistake them for others who share the label but are immoral, all they need to do is stand up and say, "Hey, I'm as disgusted as you are by them."

TC

 

[.lava]

I don't understand. Are you saying this event didn't happen, or the people who did it aren't Muslims administering Islamic Justice, or that these actions are not Islamic, or what? I take it you disagree with the Fatwa of the elders?

i don't know if this incident happened or not yet i know this kind of stuff happens and it breaks my heart. but that's not the case or reason why i react your title, Autodidact. judgement they made is plain injustice though you call it Islamic justice which applies Islamic justice is not just. i am not even sure if giving fatwas was Islamic. i don't know any verse in Qur'an that give permission to anyone to make fatwas on other people.

the point is, if there were bunch of wrong doers who happened to be Muslims, their acts are called Islamic terror; if a Muslim father kills his daughter, that is represented as an Islamic killing; if a rape victim was hanged, that is announced as Islamic law....long story short, any act that terrorize people, any desicion that's injustice, any act that should be accepted as crime, anything ugly, anything bad; they are all called Islamic as long as it is done by Muslims as if source of wrong doings was Islam and those who do this kind of stuff would not do it if they were not Muslims. i disagree with that. that's not all because, present American government acts like terrorsits, rape victim would be asked if she liked it, Guantanamo torturers walk free, they send more and more soldiers even to new invaded nations, there are lots of killings inside USA, fathers there also kill their daughter, fathers rape their own daugthers, husband kills wife....every ugly and bad thing happens there too. because people commit crime regardless what religion they follow, regardless what they believe or not. then you would say they are considered crime but in Islamic nations they are not considered crime, it is done by authority. and i do admit, there is something terribly wrong. i don't know who they are or what they work for. i don't know intention of them. but i have serious doubts about them. because one does not need to be very well educated to know rape and adultery are not same. so i assume they know it. so, they either hate women or they hate Islam. so maybe they should be in power to show entire world how Islamic justice is as you see it yourself and announce it in the way expected, so that Western governments would not have so much complaints from their citizens about this cruel and injustice killings they perform in Muslim nations. after all maybe those authorities who make Muslims suffers is supported or rent or bought by USA. liars and betrayals who represent themselves as Muslims giving fatwas to torture Muslims and to make Islam look bad. where were they a decade ago? they are needed now. soon Muslims would react to injustice. i assure you, there's no reaction yet. those who sit on very important chairs would not punish every rape victim. they know it very well, in case they did, they could not stop civilians giving a hard reaction. so they do it once in awhile just to remind you or remind Western people what Western soldiers fighting againts. it is a lie. i don't buy it



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[Thought Criminal]

i don't know if this incident happened or not yet i know this kind of stuff happens and it breaks my heart. but that's not the case or reason why i react your title, Autodidact. judgement they made is plain injustice though you call it Islamic justice which applies Islamic justice is not just. i am not even sure if giving fatwas was Islamic. i don't know any verse in Qur'an that give permission to anyone to make fatwas on other people.

the point is, if there were bunch of wrong doers who happened to be Muslims, their acts are called Islamic terror; if a Muslim father kills his daughter, that is represented as an Islamic killing; if a rape victim was hanged, that is announced as Islamic law....long story short, any act that terrorize people, any desicion that's injustice, any act that should be accepted as crime, anything ugly, anything bad; they are all called Islamic as long as it is done by Muslims as if source of wrong doings was Islam and those who do this kind of stuff would not do it if they were not Muslims. i disagree with that. that's not all because, present American government acts like terrorsits, rape victim would be asked if she liked it, Guantanamo torturers walk free, they send more and more soldiers even to new invaded nations, there are lots of killings inside USA, fathers there also kill their daughter, fathers rape their own daugthers, husband kills wife....every ugly and bad thing happens there too. because people commit crime regardless what religion they follow, regardless what they believe or not. then you would say they are considered crime but in Islamic nations they are not considered crime, it is done by authority. and i do admit, there is something terribly wrong. i don't know who they are or what they work for. i don't know intention of them. but i have serious doubts about them. because one does not need to be very well educated to know rape and adultery are not same. so i assume they know it. so, they either hate women or they hate Islam. so maybe they should be in power to show entire world how Islamic justice is as you see it yourself and announce it in the way expected, so that Western governments would not have so much complaints from their citizens about this cruel and injustice killings they perform in Muslim nations. after all maybe those authorities who make Muslims suffers is supported or rent or bought by USA. liars and betrayals who represent themselves as Muslims giving fatwas to torture Muslims and to make Islam look bad. where were they a decade ago? they are needed now. soon Muslims would react to injustice. i assure you, there's no reaction yet. those who sit on very important chairs would not punish every rape victim. they know it very well, in case they did, they could not stop civilians giving a hard reaction. so they do it once in awhile just to remind you or remind Western people what Western soldiers fighting againts. it is a lie. i don't buy it



.

There's a distinction between individual actions and governmental ones. If I kidnap and torture you, that's a crime. If agents of my government kidnap and torture you, it's a great injustice.

The actions are much the same in both cases. What makes it worse when the government does it is that it's not just one lunatic, it's a duly-appointed representative acting on behalf of a sovereign nation.

In the same way, when a man murders his daughter, it is a crime, but if he does it because he believes that Islam requires him to, it is a great injustice. If you murder a homosexual because you're a terrible bigot, it's a crime. But if you do it because you are implementing Sharia law, it's a great injustice.

The issue here is that it seems that these crimes are not merely being committed by Muslims, but by Muslims doing what Islam tells them to, turning their actions into great injustices.

TC

 

[.lava]

There's a distinction between individual actions and governmental ones. If I kidnap and torture you, that's a crime. If agents of my government kidnap and torture you, it's a great injustice.

The actions are much the same in both cases. What makes it worse when the government does it is that it's not just one lunatic, it's a duly-appointed representative acting on behalf of a sovereign nation.

In the same way, when a man murders his daughter, it is a crime, but if he does it because he believes that Islam requires him to, it is a great injustice. If you murder a homosexual because you're a terrible bigot, it's a crime. But if you do it because you are implementing Sharia law, it's a great injustice.

The issue here is that it seems that these crimes are not merely being committed by Muslims, but by Muslims doing what Islam tells them to, turning their actions into great injustices.

TC

what's your point, TC?



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[Thought Criminal]

what's your point, TC?
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That the reason these things were reported as Muslim is that they were done under the banner of Islam, not merely coincidentally by Muslims. They were great injustices, not crimes.

TC

 

[.lava]

That the reason these things were reported as Muslim is that they were done under the banner of Islam, not merely coincidentally by Muslims. They were great injustices, not crimes.

TC

no, they apply some rule does not exists in Islam and they call it Islamic


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[Thought Criminal]

no, they apply some rule does not exists in Islam and they call it Islamic


.

Ok, so here you're saying that what they're doing is not Islamic. The problem is that they disagree. Who should I believe?

TC

 

[.lava]

Ok, so here you're saying that what they're doing is not Islamic. The problem is that they disagree. Who should I believe?

TC

Qur'an of course. if you want to know what Islam is that's the source. but then there would be a translation problem you have to face though it is easier to get over with comparing to learning Islam from acts of Muslims



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[Thought Criminal]

Qur'an of course. if you want to know what Islam is that's the source. but then there would be a translation problem you have to face though it is easier to get over with comparing to learning Islam from acts of Muslims



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Talk to a few Christians, and you'll quickly learn that, even among those who claim to follow their scriptures literally, there is great disagreement as to the meaning and interpretation. Islam is no different; it's one book, with many readings. Just as I would not tell a Catholic that they're not real Christians just because they disagree with a Baptist, how can I judge which Muslim is "real"?

TC

 

[kai]

Talk to a few Christians, and you'll quickly learn that, even among those who claim to follow their scriptures literally, there is great disagreement as to the meaning and interpretation. Islam is no different; it's one book, with many readings. Just as I would not tell a Catholic that they're not real Christians just because they disagree with a Baptist, how can I judge which Muslim is "real"?

TC

surely you should be judging the Bangladeshi's who are involved. Whether its Islamic or not is a judgement call based on what the Bangladeshi's are saying.

 

[Thought Criminal]

surely you should be judging the Bangladeshi's who are involved. Whether its Islamic or not is a judgement call based on what the Bangladeshi's are saying.

I don't know that there really is a fact of the matter regarding whether their actions were truly Islamic. I know that some Muslims say it was and at least some say otherwise, but I have no basis for deciding which ones are correct. There are primary and secondary scriptures, plus years of divergent traditions, and I can imagine a plausible case made for both sides.

What's important here is that these actions were not merely done by Muslims but in the name of Islam, which means it reflects on all Muslims who do not disavow them. So If a Muslim tells me that they find those actions reprehensible and deny that they are allowed (much less required) by Islam, then that's enough information to let me decide that this particular Muslim does not share the blame. However, it tells me nothing about other Muslims, and less than nothing about whether the blameless one was correct.

TC

 

[.lava]

Talk to a few Christians, and you'll quickly learn that, even among those who claim to follow their scriptures literally, there is great disagreement as to the meaning and interpretation. Islam is no different; it's one book, with many readings. Just as I would not tell a Catholic that they're not real Christians just because they disagree with a Baptist, how can I judge which Muslim is "real"?

TC

qucikly learn? really? i am sorry but since i got this place and have chance to talk to Christians i basicly stopped talking about Christianity and began to ask questions. does not matter if they have different angles. i have my own personal intellect and conscience and as a believer of a loving creator, i don't expect any illogical and cruel thing from religion. if there is then there is a human factor in it. because it is human who is cruel and injust. there are a few thousands of verses in Qur'an. when we study, we learn relations between verses. noone could understand it from reading one verse or two. you got to study it. when you do, it is clear. though there are inner meanings, there is also one meaning for all to see on the surface. and that obvious one is meant for anyone who reads it. i don't mean to be rude but i think you are being irresponsible. that's a choice, of course but not good enough to tell your opinion by reasoning that i could take account


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