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Isn't it better to be atheists?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Actually, the opposite is true. You have the burden of proof. Let me show you your twisted logic. All the clouds are sentient, and secretly control all government. Now prove it.
I have NO burden of proof, I made no claims I need to prove or choose to debate theology with theists. I have been providing a plethora of evidences for God, in debating atheists, for years. Atheists never provide anything. I can pretty easily demolish the atheist life boat of natural explanations by their god science

I don't do it anymore. like voracious furnaces consuming everything shoved into them atheists only demand more evidence, more evidence, but they provide none of their own for their position, except the magic SOMEDAY when science will support it's unsupported theories about a whole host of issues.

I don't do it anymore, As a trolling troubadour atheist that raced into a nonexistent debate to tell me what I must prove, I say pure pap.

You made the claim god doesn't exist, the burden is with you, prove it. You can't. So long
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: No, just All-Powerful.

Can't find the only two humans in a small garden.

Can't name nonhumans without delegating to new human.

Can't make a woman using the same recipe He used for man.

Can't raise anyone from the dead who died from pretty serious things (like beheading or stabbing), only vague medical conditions that apparently can resolve with time.

Can't give gays kids. At least science can pull that off in various ways.

Can't rescue POWs Himself. Needs random guys for the job.

Can't defeat chariots of iron. Must be a fairy or something.

Forgets how to forgive people and must delegate to Jesus, who then forgets he can do it because now we can only get it if we believe he died for us.

Slowly and surely disappears from the bible in a fascinating study of a religion's de-evolution of God's presence. Goes from walking with us to speaking from on high to angels to prophets to dead authors claiming to work for prophets.
I am a Baha'i so I do not believe all those Bible stories literally happened, sorry...

God is All-Powerful.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You initiated this response, I didn't seek you out, I made no claims to you I want to defend. Therefore, your claim to me that no God exists is yours to prove. I couldn't care less what your opinion is, I didn't solicit it.

I debate theology with theists, not unprovable propositions with trolling rabid atheists.

You say you can't prove a negative, I say you can.

You believe there is no God, I say prove it.

otherwise, buzz off

Neither the existence nor the non-existence of God(s) can be proven. Both require a philosophical/theological conclusion that cannot be objectively determined.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: The one doing the convincing could be wrong which is why it is not a good idea to let other people prove things TO YOU, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. It is however fine to gather evidence from other people for purposes of your own investigation.

Yes, the one attempting to convince another might be wrong, and yet still succeed.

That is the inherent danger in believing something someone else convinced you is true. Baha’u’llah said that.

“….inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

I often challenge a poster who says, "I just proved ..."
You won’t be challenging me then, because all I will ever to is present evidence. The burden of proof is not on me because I am not trying to prove anything. I am just acceding to posters’ requests for evidence. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Evidence of ... what, exactly?
Certainly not evidence of any Divine Beings-- in fact, a very good case can be argued that the bible is evidence there cannot be any Divine Beings --- of any stripe-- simply by existing.

So, yeah, the bible is evidence of something--- just not anything supernatural.

More accurately, the bible is evidence that humans love to control other humans, by any means they can.

From that perspective, the bible has been pretty successful: Look at the number of gullible folk, giving hard-earned cash-money to obvious charlatans and con men... for example, the private-jet owning Joel Osteen. How on earth can anyone think that guy is anything but a con man and an outright thief?

You certainly raise some good points… :)

Whether or not the Bible is evidence of a God existing depends upon how you interpret the Bible. If you expect it to represent actual events that occurred or things God said then you will be sorely disappointed, and deluded. :oops:

The Bible is the spiritual history of mankind over an extensive time period and if understood as such one gains a new perspective.

I. The Bible as Universal History
II. History as Spiritual Evolution
III. Man's Destiny and Man's Effort

From: The Heart of the Gospel
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: Sorry, that is not a reason. Just because God CAN prevent evil does not mean God SHOULD prevent evil.

No, all the evil is caused by humans.


So. God is NOT --- repeat NOT all-powerful as previously claimed?
And therefore? The future is indeterminate-- this god does not even know?
Okay... Gotcha. Why call it "god" in that case? It's at best, a demi-god....
Please answer: Why should an All-Powerful God prevent the evil humans do?

The fact that God is Al-Powerful so God could prevent the evil humans do is not an answer.

I want to know why you think God is obligated to prevent evil.
Trailblazer said: See any God in prison?
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Oh, absolutely!!! In fact, prisons in the USA, are nearly all Genuine Christians! And the scant few that are not? Muslim.

Atheists in prisons-- are grossly under-represented, point of fact.

Hmmmm.... it seems that prison life is BENEFICIAL to god-belief...!
You just proved my point. :D God does commit the evil acts so God does not belong in prison.

Christians are not God. They are humans. Some humans commit evil acts and end up in prison.

It is true that atheists are grossly under-represented in the prison population but that can be accounted for by the fact that only about 3% of the U.S. population are atheists. The remainder of the population is agnostics or believers and 71% are Christians.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Talking about proof requires that we talk about objective vs subjective. I feel that belief is subjective but that subjective is just as important as objective truth.

Only the "scope" to use a programming term of subjective truth is much smaller than is the scope of objective truth. But in creating an objective truth we lose personal applicability in many cases. Objective truths "don't care about us" while subjective truths are "all about us".
I would only add that subjective proof is only valuable to the person who has it, whereas objective proof can be seen by anyone. Subjective proof is all about us but it is meaningless to everyone else…

Regarding religion, I have to have some objective proof, and from that subjectivity cooperates with objectivity, as you said. In a religious context two people can be looking at the same religion from two different perspectives and both can come to the same conclusion or a different conclusion.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
You wouldn't know what is logical if it bit you on the butt.

Oh! My mistake-- by "logic" you really meant "subtle, but invalid lying and StrawMan fallacies."

Now your post begins to make sense... wait... no, not even then.


Ah, you believe C.S Lewis was giving a lecture on logic, do you ? Ignorance and you are becoming more and more synonymous. Keep it up and when anyone sees your nom de plume, the word ignorant will automatically flash into their mind.

Did I say "lecture"? Go look up "Straw Man".

C.S. Lewis was a hack writer. He never had a single sensible thing to say, and his horrible propaganda pieces have ruined reading for countless generations since he put it to pen.

What a waste of trees.
C.S.Lewis was a lecturer in English literature at Oxford and and Cambridge University's in England. Do you have a globe you can look at ? Hint, England isn't in America.

That matters.... how? He is regarded as a hack by modern day ethics. His Bible Apologizing has done more to turn people away from the bible than anything a rational person could have done.

As far as I know, he never lectured on logic.

True. No theist, who promotes his religion first, lectures on logic. Proof is in your posts, herein.

Regardless, I couldn't have a video disc of him lecturing on anything before a video camera, since he died long before they were in common use.

Nice little strawman you built up there... .be a shame if anything happened to it...

Are you just challenged by reading simple English ? I understand, get it off your chest, you will feel better. Maybe we collectively could help you find a 9th grade reading course to improve your skills.

Aaaaaand the inevitable Ad Hom. Nice.

So. Is the 9th grade above your reading level, then? I'll see if I can dumb it down some more---- just for you. How low do we need to go, here?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth
That doesn't make Him omnipotent. It makes Him arbitrary.

He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.
He is restrained by His own whim, as quoted above.

“….inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”
The prophets are mortal men. Why do I need them if I can talk to God?

Please answer: Why should an All-Powerful God prevent the evil humans do?
God supposedly taught us good from bad and then decides not to do good things. This is bad parenting.

I want to know why you think God is obligated to prevent evil.
It is His RESPONSIBILITY. If I have other living beings in my house, especially any I created, I am RESPONSIBLE for their welfare. Why is such a lazy God so attractive to so many?

From wiki:
Elijah proposes a direct test of the powers of Baal and the Jewish God. The people of Israel, 450 prophets of Baal, and 400 prophets of Asherah are summoned to Mount Carmel. Two altars are built, one for Baal and one for God. Wood is laid on the altars. Two oxen are slaughtered and cut into pieces; the pieces are laid on the wood. Elijah then invites the priests of Baal to pray for fire to light the sacrifice. They pray from morning to noon without success. Elijah ridicules their efforts. "At noon Elijah mocked them, saying, ‘Cry aloud! Surely he is a god; either he is meditating, or he has wandered away, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.’"[27] They respond by cutting themselves and adding their own blood to the sacrifice (such mutilation of the body was strictly forbidden in the Mosaic law). They continue praying until evening without success.
Sometimes I wonder if God is Yahweh or Baal. I've read about Their drama where each wants to be king of the gods. They are both about equally pathetic, only obtaining the position whenever El is in the mood.

The remainder of the population is agnostics or believers and 71% are Christians.
Religions, some of them anyway, claim to be transformative so that people become better. We can see this is false. Group identity means squat. Even John the Baptist saw it and he didn't use methodical scientific inquiry.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Please answer: Why should an All-Powerful God prevent the evil humans do?

Oh, that one is easy:

If I was walking by an alley, and I heard a woman screaming for help? *I would do everything in my limited mortal power, to prevent her from further harm.

And *snap*: Just like that I am more moral than all the gods of all of human imagination, ever-- because I would risk my own well being to prevent an evil act.

To permit evil-- regardless of the root-cause-- is to be complacent in said evil-- especially if you are painfully aware of the evil in the first place.

But wait! IT IS WORSE: An All Knowing god? Has the Power Of Prevention! It could prevent the evil from even happening in the first place, all without usurping free will, or making someone drop dead or any of that stuff.

Simply by controlling the outcome of human births.... no Hitlers, for one example...

Likely this All Powerful Thing would need to also fiddle with the childhood of anyone on the border between Great Evil (aka Hitler) and Great Good (aka Dr Hawking).

But I have no idea, really--because unlike this being you have imagined? I am not claiming to be all knowing...


.... and even more important? I'm not claiming to be All Good.

So. We are full circle: If god exists? It is evil, for allowing such to not only take place, but to thrive...
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Careful with your enthusiasm, your denigrating atheism is not grounded in superior evidence, logic or reasoning. In fact the objective verifiable evidence of the nature of our physical existence offers no support for Theism.
Although the ultimate answer is unprovable, as you stated, and thus my enthusiasm I take issue with your term, denigrate. Atheism is a philosophical position worthy of consideration, one that I held for a long time. I would suggest that in discussion, personal denigration is often a tool of atheists, one I am loathe to employ, and only use in response to continuous ad hominems from a verbally rabid participant.

I again take issue with your contention that my position is not grounded in superior evidence, and the use of true logical thinking. Your statement is an opinion, not a fact. As mine is.

For me, the evidence for a God is compelling, and a logical assessment of it comes to that conclusion.

After countless circular debates with atheists on the issue, this type of debate is is a waste of my time.

I am only in this thread at all because a poster was giving, in my view, a very skewed. and ignorant view of the attributes of God. This is a theological issue, not a philosophical one re the existence of God.

Since this poster had virtually no knowledge of the various theological answers to his observations, I gave him some.

Of course the atheists here, many circling like vultures, seeing a believers post, dropped down and in hoping to have a carcass to feed on, jumped to their inevitable and apparently only feeding mode, prove God exists. When told I had no intention in engaging in that debate, I was bluntly told what I had to prove. When told I had to prove nothing, others in their flock joined the feeding frenzy, to whom I had to waste more time in responding.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
,... personal denigration ... , one I am loathe to employ, ....

And one you use with every single post so far.... hmmmm.... mayhap you should re-read up on the definition of "loathe"....

Or is it you enjoy loathing? Hmmmm..... difficult to determine which it is.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
And one you use with every single post so far.... hmmmm.... mayhap you should re-read up on the definition of "loathe"....

Or is it you enjoy loathing? Hmmmm..... difficult to determine which it is.
You siur,
And one you use with every single post so far.... hmmmm.... mayhap you should re-read up on the definition of "loathe"....

Or is it you enjoy loathing? Hmmmm..... difficult to determine which it is.
Bob, Bob, please stop doing this to yourself, it has gone from sad, to painful. Loathe, and loath are not the same word, they have totally different meanings.

Slur, yes, I guess YOU might use that term in many of my posts in response to your ad hominems ( look it up), but actually my responses are satiric (look it up), and sarcastic. I loath your crudity and self induced ignorance, I loath your obviously inflated with nothing but hot air ego. I don't loath you, I don't know you.

I am loathe to employ satire and sarcasm in my responses to you, but you just won;'t shut up and go away. Like the defeated drunk, you just keep coming back for more.

Bob, quit embarrassing yourself, cease and desist, if not for my great sympathy for you, then for your own standing in this group.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You siur,

Bob, Bob, please stop doing this to yourself, it has gone from sad, to painful. Loathe, and loath are not the same word, they have totally different meanings.

Slur, yes, I guess YOU might use that term in many of my posts in response to your ad hominems ( look it up), but actually my responses are satiric (look it up), and sarcastic. I loath your crudity and self induced ignorance, I loath your obviously inflated with nothing but hot air ego. I don't loath you, I don't know you.

I am loathe to employ satire and sarcasm in my responses to you, but you just won;'t shut up and go away. Like the defeated drunk, you just keep coming back for more.

Bob, quit embarrassing yourself, cease and desist, if not for my great sympathy for you, then for your own standing in this group.
There is satire in this post Bob, since you won't see it, it is the exchange interplay between loath, and loathe. or, you might consider ita pun.
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
I have NO burden of proof, I made no claims I need to prove or choose to debate theology with theists. I have been providing a plethora of evidences for God, in debating atheists, for years. Atheists never provide anything. I can pretty easily demolish the atheist life boat of natural explanations by their god science

I don't do it anymore. like voracious furnaces consuming everything shoved into them atheists only demand more evidence, more evidence, but they provide none of their own for their position, except the magic SOMEDAY when science will support it's unsupported theories about a whole host of issues.

I don't do it anymore, As a trolling troubadour atheist that raced into a nonexistent debate to tell me what I must prove, I say pure pap.

You made the claim god doesn't exist, the burden is with you, prove it. You can't. So long
Can you show us any of this 'evidence'? How is on the Atheists to prove God doesn't exist? Unicorns exist. Prove me wrong.
 
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