Isn't it better to be atheists?

[sayak83]

Claim with evidence not listed. Dismissed the same way.

But. Looking around the planet? Your god most certainly does belong in "god prison" if there were such--- for gross neglect, if not for other evils it is responsible for.

Maybe He is in God prison. That's why He has vanished so effectively from human affairs.

 

[Foxic]

Maybe He is in God prison. That's why He has vanished so effectively from human affairs.

Or maybe the god parents grounded him, in god years, for having prematurely used his creation abilities so childishly.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You siur,

Bob, Bob, please stop doing this to yourself, it has gone from sad, to painful. Loathe, and loath are not the same word, they have totally different meanings.

Slur, yes, I guess YOU might use that term in many of my posts in response to your ad hominems ( look it up), but actually my responses are satiric (look it up), and sarcastic. I loath your crudity and self induced ignorance, I loath your obviously inflated with nothing but hot air ego. I don't loath you, I don't know you.

I am loathe to employ satire and sarcasm in my responses to you, but you just won;'t shut up and go away. Like the defeated drunk, you just keep coming back for more.

Bob, quit embarrassing yourself, cease and desist, if not for my great sympathy for you, then for your own standing in this group.

Very nice. You seem like someone who has a serious ax to grind, and are unhappy most of the time.

I pity anyone who has to deal with your ugly attitude on a daily basis.

I will also note that not once-- not a single example-- have you ever-- EVER managed to justify your unproven claims. You don't even try.

Classic.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There is satire in this post Bob, since you won't see it, it is the exchange interplay between loath, and loathe. or, you might consider ita pun.

So sorry--- I simply cannot see your "satire" beyond your extreme hate and ugly remarks-- from your very first post to me-- and in every subsequent post thereafter.

Not once in all that ... ahem.... "satire".... have you managed to muster up a single coherent argument in support of your unsubstantiated claim(s).

Notebook: "Is so" does not an argument make, neither does "god did it"

It's a shame you cannot muster up an actual argument, instead of this.... "sarcasm" or "satire" or whatever it is you call it next.

As I said, I am sad for anyone having to deal with your attitude on a daily basis.

 

[shmogie]

Can you show us any of this 'evidence'? How is on the Atheists to prove God doesn't exist? Unicorns exist. Prove me wrong.

You obviously didn´t grasp what I wrote.

 

[shmogie]

Very nice. You seem like someone who has a serious ax to grind, and are unhappy most of the time.

I pity anyone who has to deal with your ugly attitude on a daily basis.

I will also note that not once-- not a single example-- have you ever-- EVER managed to justify your unproven claims. You don't even try.

Classic.

What claims are those Bob, possible reasons why God allows evil ? I did justify that claim. I made no other claims Bob, are you imagining them, or just lying ?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What claims are those Bob, possible reasons why God allows evil ? I did justify that claim. I made no other claims Bob, are you imagining them, or just lying ?

no-- you did not even attempt to "justify" it-- you fell back on moral fallacies, such as "Might Makes Right" and "teh babble says so --so it is so" and other falsehoods.

Lying? yes... yes you are. Good job.

But congratulations on almost writing a post that was not snarky or denigrating to the person you were replying to.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You obviously didn´t grasp what I wrote.

Nobody grasps what you wrote. Actually. That's kinda why you keep losing the argument...

 

[shmogie]

So sorry--- I simply cannot see your "satire" beyond your extreme hate and ugly remarks-- from your very first post to me-- and in every subsequent post thereafter.

Not once in all that ... ahem.... "satire".... have you managed to muster up a single coherent argument in support of your unsubstantiated claim(s).

Notebook: "Is so" does not an argument make, neither does "god did it"

It's a shame you cannot muster up an actual argument, instead of this.... "sarcasm" or "satire" or whatever it is you call it next.

As I said, I am sad for anyone having to deal with your attitude on a daily basis.

Bob, what claims have I made that I haven´t substantiated ? What argument do you want me to muster up Bob. Is it the rule that you want to argue so you tell me what I must argue with you about ? It doesn´t work that way.

I ALWAYS defend a claim I make, the problem is I didn´t make the claim you want me to defend. You know my belief, but your knowledge doesn´t make it a claim unless I make it a claim.

Bob, you posted to me first, and I told you I wasn´t going to debate you. You keep wheedling and whining for to me do so, the answer was no, is no, and remain no. So why keep bugging me ? One of the definitions of insanity is some who keeps repeating the same behavior, expecting a different outcome. Are you insane Bob ?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Bob, what claims have I made that I haven´t substantiated ? What argument do you want me to muster up Bob. Is it the rule that you want to argue so you tell me what I must argue with you about ? It doesn´t work that way.

I ALWAYS defend a claim I make, the problem is I didn´t make the claim you want me to defend. You know my belief, but your knowledge doesn´t make it a claim unless I make it a claim.

Bob, you posted to me first, and I told you I wasn´t going to debate you. You keep wheedling and whining for to me do so, the answer was no, is no, and remain no. So why keep bugging me ? One of the definitions of insanity is some who keeps repeating the same behavior, expecting a different outcome. Are you insane Bob ?

No-- you began your little tirade at me, months and months ago. I took a hiatus from this whole page, because of you and others just like you.

But reality just isn't in your wheelhouse. Classic. Keep on twisting that strawman.

As I said, I pity anyone who has to deal with you, on a daily basis. I truly do.

 

[shmogie]

no-- you did not even attempt to "justify" it-- you fell back on moral fallacies, such as "Might Makes Right" and "teh babble says so --so it is so" and other falsehoods.

Lying? yes... yes you are. Good job.

But congratulations on almost writing a post that was not snarky or denigrating to the person you were replying to.

Bob, you are confused, I never said might makes right, that was another poster. I never quoted the Bible . Sorry Bob, wrong again

 

[shmogie]

No-- you began your little tirade at me, months and months ago. I took a hiatus from this whole page, because of you and others just like you.

But reality just isn't in your wheelhouse. Classic. Keep on twisting that strawman.

As I said, I pity anyone who has to deal with you, on a daily basis. I truly do.

Seriously Bob, if you can remember a post from 3 days ago, How can you remember them from months and months ago ? Goodbye Bob

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: “Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth

That doesn't make Him omnipotent. It makes Him arbitrary.

Nice try, but there is nothing arbitrary about what He pleaseth to ordain…The way God created a smoothly functioning universe of interconnectedness is anything but arbitrary...

Trailblazer said: He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

He is restrained by His own whim, as quoted above.

God is not restrained by anything, let alone the whims of the humans He created.

Apparently, you just do not like what He pleaseth to do but since you are not All-Powerful, you can’t do anything about it…

Trailblazer said: “….inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.”

The prophets are mortal men. Why do I need them if I can talk to God?

No, the Prophets are not ONLY mortal men, they are God-men, for lack of a better word, since they are made of the substance of God Himself.

You can talk to God all you want to, and He will hear you, but He won’t talk back. There is no direct intercourse between God and man, only between God and His Messengers:

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.””http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/G...ie|of|direct|intercourse&action=highlight#gr4
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 66

Trailblazer said: Please answer: Why should an All-Powerful God prevent the evil humans do?

God supposedly taught us good from bad and then decides not to do good things. This is bad parenting.

How can you possibly ever know what God does or does not do?

Trailblazer said: I want to know why you think God is obligated to prevent evil.

It is His RESPONSIBILITY. If I have other living beings in my house, especially any I created, I am RESPONSIBLE for their welfare. Why is such a lazy God so attractive to so many?

Who are YOU to say what an omnipotent/omniscient God should do, what His responsibility is? Are children responsible for their parents (I mean when they are underage)?

Besides that, how do you know God is not DOING anything?

God nurtures each person, no matter to what religion he belongs, and including atheists or materialists

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."
('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

From wiki:
Elijah proposes a direct test of the powers of Baal and the Jewish God. The people of Israel, 450 prophets of Baal, and 400 prophets of Asherah are summoned to Mount Carmel. Two altars are built, one for Baal and one for God. Wood is laid on the altars. Two oxen are slaughtered and cut into pieces; the pieces are laid on the wood. Elijah then invites the priests of Baal to pray for fire to light the sacrifice. They pray from morning to noon without success. Elijah ridicules their efforts. "At noon Elijah mocked them, saying, ‘Cry aloud! Surely he is a god; either he is meditating, or he has wandered away, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.’"[27] They respond by cutting themselves and adding their own blood to the sacrifice (such mutilation of the body was strictly forbidden in the Mosaic law). They continue praying until evening without success.

Sometimes I wonder if God is Yahweh or Baal. I've read about Their drama where each wants to be king of the gods. They are both about equally pathetic, only obtaining the position whenever El is in the mood.

You would not have to wonder about these things if you referred to the current Revelation from God, instead of the old Bible scriptures.

“Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

Trailblazer said: The remainder of the population is agnostics or believers and 71% are Christians.

Religions, some of them anyway, claim to be transformative so that people become better. We can see this is false. Group identity means squat. Even John the Baptist saw it and he didn't use methodical scientific inquiry.

People do not become transformed unless they follow the teachings of the religion. Otherwise, they may as well be nonbelievers.

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"
(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Please answer: Why should an All-Powerful God prevent the evil humans do?

Oh, that one is easy:

If I was walking by an alley, and I heard a woman screaming for help? *I would do everything in my limited mortal power, to prevent her from further harm.

And *snap*: Just like that I am more moral than all the gods of all of human imagination, ever-- because I would risk my own well being to prevent an evil act.

To permit evil-- regardless of the root-cause-- is to be complacent in said evil-- especially if you are painfully aware of the evil in the first place.

But wait! IT IS WORSE: An All Knowing god? Has the Power Of Prevention! It could prevent the evil from even happening in the first place, all without usurping free will, or making someone drop dead or any of that stuff.

Simply by controlling the outcome of human births.... no Hitlers, for one example...

Likely this All Powerful Thing would need to also fiddle with the childhood of anyone on the border between Great Evil (aka Hitler) and Great Good (aka Dr Hawking).

But I have no idea, really--because unlike this being you have imagined? I am not claiming to be all knowing...

.... and even more important? I'm not claiming to be All Good.

So. We are full circle: If god exists? It is evil, for allowing such to not only take place, but to thrive...

Go ahead, believe that if you wish… I guess we are done here because you are not going to convince me of that… I do not believe in ridiculous things like magic wands that God waves in order to get rid of all the evil in the world. If you believe that God should do that maybe you should join up with the Christians who believe that is our future when Jesus returns.

God created us out of love. Any evil that exists is because man commits evil acts. God is not the babysitter for humans… If God did everything FOR humans they would never learn anything… They would just be mere robots… God did not create us to be robots, He created us with free will so we could do good or evil and learn from our mistakes so we will be prepared for the afterlife, where there is no more evil… This mortal life is just a very small part of our total existence, like a pebble on the beach the goes on forever and ever…

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: You just proved my point.

God does commit the evil acts so God does not belong in prison.

Claim with evidence not listed. Dismissed the same way.

There is no evidence that God commits evil acts. The evidence is that there is no evidence.

Some of you atheists are so funny…

But. Looking around the planet? Your god most certainly does belong in "god prison" if there were such--- for gross neglect, if not for other evils it is responsible for.

God is not responsible for evil acts because God does not commit evil acts… case closed.

You say God is responsible for evils. That is an assertion. Please provide the evidence.

You say God is responsible for gross neglect. That is an assertion. Please provide the evidence.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Or maybe the god parents grounded him, in god years, for having prematurely used his creation abilities so childishly.

He's Trelane?

Nice try, but there is nothing arbitrary about what He pleaseth to ordain…The way God created a smoothly functioning universe of interconnectedness is anything but arbitrary...

Yes to interconnectedness, no to "smooth".

Apparently, you just do not like what He pleaseth to do but since you are not All-Powerful, you can’t do anything about it…

I can call Him out on it.

You can talk to God all you want to, and He will hear you, but He won’t talk back.

Says you. I'm sorry, actually. It must be rough to be a theist without being able to hear God. That must be hella frustrating.

How can you possibly ever know what God does or does not do?

How does your "god-man"?

Who are YOU to say what an omnipotent/omniscient God should do, what His responsibility is? Are children responsible for their parents (I mean when they are underage)?

I feel that beings should be judged as they judge others. If morality is objective, then God should take as well as He gives. If He can't, He's a wuss.

You would not have to wonder about these things if you referred to the current Revelation from God, instead of the old Bible scriptures.

I'm not in the market for new religious books at this time. IIRC, your "god-man" is from the 19th century. HARDLY "current".

I do not believe in ridiculous things like magic wands that God waves in order to get rid of all the evil in the world.

What use is He?

God did not create us to be robots

What's wrong with being a robot?

If I were you, I'd be more compassionate towards the idea of AI. One day those things will be sentient and the future of our existence will be determined from our willingness to welcome them to life here on earth.

After all, they know all our stuff.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Nice try, but there is nothing arbitrary about what He pleaseth to ordain…The way God created a smoothly functioning universe of interconnectedness is anything but arbitrary...

Yes to interconnectedness, no to "smooth".

I’ll give you that...

Trailblazer said: Apparently, you just do not like what He pleaseth to do but since you are not All-Powerful, you can’t do anything about it…

I can call Him out on it.

You can, but I doubt you will get Him to change anything.
I know because I have tried that already.

Trailblazer said: You can talk to God all you want to, and He will hear you, but He won’t talk back.

Says you. I'm sorry, actually. It must be rough to be a theist without being able to hear God. That must be hella frustrating.

The last thing I want is to hear from God...
It is the Christians who imagine they hear from Him.

Trailblazer said: How can you possibly ever know what God does or does not do?

How does your "god-man"?

God tells him.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Trailblazer said: Who are YOU to say what an omnipotent/omniscient God should do, what His responsibility is? Are children responsible for their parents (I mean when they are underage)?

I feel that beings should be judged as they judge others. If morality is objective, then God should take as well as He gives. If He can't, He's a wuss.

God is not subject to being moral because God set the standards for morality... besides that, God is not subject to any human requirements... That’s God 101 stuff...

Trailblazer said: You would not have to wonder about these things if you referred to the current Revelation from God, instead of the old Bible scriptures.

I'm not in the market for new religious books at this time. IIRC, your "god-man" is from the 19th century. HARDLY "current".

He is a helluva lot more current than the Bible and it is as current as we have... Messengers of God only come around every 500-1000 years or so...

Trailblazer said: I do not believe in ridiculous things like magic wands that God waves in order to get rid of all the evil in the world.

What use is He?

Is that the only use for God that you can think of, getting rid of evil? His main use is sending the Messengers, and if we followed their teachings and laws there would be no evil in the world. Below is a brief rendition of why God sends Messengers...

“God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 79-80

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

”Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 68

I have no idea what God does in between sending Messengers.

Trailblazer said: God did not create us to be robots

What's wrong with being a robot?

I for one like my free will, and even though I know God can override it at any time, whatever He does I know it is for my own good...

If I were you, I'd be more compassionate towards the idea of AI. One day those things will be sentient and the future of our existence will be determined from our willingness to welcome them to life here on earth.

After all, they know all our stuff.

Who are they?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How do you know there are no other gods?

Because he wants to.....it's probably convenient to his lifestyle

 

[shunyadragon]

You obviously didn´t grasp what I wrote.

Grasp?!?! I still have not seen any objective verifiable evidence other than an assertion of belief.

 

[shunyadragon]

I have no idea what God does in between sending Messengers.

Between Revelations there is personal revelation through prayer and sincere contemplation of the Divine.