Isn't it better to be atheists?

[sayak83]

I find it difficult to imagine a more dangerous ideology. No wonder climate change deniers and suchlike are so prevalent.

I concur. It's better to be an atheist than believing this moral nonsense.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So God created a system such that it would collapse as soon as God did good deeds involving preventing evil?
I am still unclear as to why my free will is not tampered with when another man intervenes (a police officer) and prevents me from doing evil, but will be tampered with if God did something similar.

Indeed. Could not this god of theirs give police a sort of Godly Inspiration? Such that the officer gets a hunch, and gets there just in time to intervene....

Why not?

Apparently, this god of theirs has absolutely zero imagination... !

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Bob, as I pointed out, you have done NOTHING to prevent anything, just run your mouth. ¨You people¨ ? LOL. You ranting is duly noted. It has been weighed in the balance, and found to be very wanting. I note the emotion. Why do you rail so much, and blame so much, and hate so much, a God you say doesn´t exist ? Deep waters here Bob. Deeper than you want to admit, deeper than you even consciously know. To paraphrase Shakespeare , methinks you protesteth way, way too much.

How very christian of you. Did you know that unhumble talk is unattractive and is not a good example of jesus and his humility to believers coming to his father?

Any critic to this isnt helping the matter. I know it may be hard. We're all human. Take a break and come back with an open mind. The arguments may make more sense and your fustration wont cloud the points youre making.

 

[Trailblazer]

So God created a system such that it would collapse as soon as God did good deeds involving preventing evil?
I am still unclear as to why my free will is not tampered with when another man intervenes (a police officer) and prevents me from doing evil, but will be tampered with if God did something similar.

Good question...

If someone stops you from doing something you wanted to do, or if they made you do something you did not want to do, then they interfered with a free will decision you might have otherwise made.

Likewise, God can intervene in free will decisions we might have made, but God does not do that all the time, and we cannot ever know if and when God does that because God is unknowable. I am sure God prevents a lot of evil, but how do you think we can know it was God doing it?

If God is benevolent and All-Knowing God knows when to intervene and when not to. Some bad things that happen to us end up being for our good, even if we do not realize that until later. If we cannot believe in that kind of God that cares and knows what He is doing, it is better not to believe in God at all.

The issue here is not that God cannot tamper with our free will but rather the issue is that we cannot order God around and expect God to do what we want. Why should an Almighty God who created the entire universe do what we want Him to do? It is really illogical and arrogant to think we could ever know as much or more than God because no human is All-Knowing. How could we mere humans know better than God what is best for us?

God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise so whatever God does (or does not do) is better than anything we could ever think to do. Any God who is not all of those things is not worthy of our belief or our worship.

If we do not want to believe in God we don't have to because God does not need our belief. But if we choose to believe in God it is just silly to think we know more than God and it is an exercise in futility to think we can make God do anything.

People who do not like what they believe God does or does not do can stay angry at God if they want to, but they only hurt themselves... I know, because I was angry at God for about 10 years.

 

[Trailblazer]

So God created a system such that it would collapse as soon as God did good deeds involving preventing evil?
I am still unclear as to why my free will is not tampered with when another man intervenes (a police officer) and prevents me from doing evil, but will be tampered with if God did something similar.

Good question...

If someone stops you from doing something you wanted to do, or if they made you do something you did not want to do, then they interfered with a free will decision you might have otherwise made.

Likewise, God can intervene in free will decisions we might have made, but God does not do that all the time, and we cannot ever know if and when God does that because God is unknowable. I am sure God prevents a lot of evil, but how do you think we can know it was God doing it?

If God is benevolent and All-Knowing God knows when to intervene and when not to. Some bad things that happen to us end up being for our good, even if we do not realize that until later. If we cannot believe in that kind of God that cares and knows what He is doing, it is better not to believe in God at all.

The issue here is not that God cannot tamper with our free will but rather the issue is that we cannot order God around and expect God to do what we want. Why should an Almighty God who created the entire universe do what we want Him to do? It is really illogical and arrogant to think we could ever know as much or more than God because no human is All-Knowing. How could we mere humans know better than God what is best for us?

God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise so whatever God does (or does not do) is better than anything we could ever think to do. Any God who is not all of those things is not worthy of our belief or our worship.

If we do not want to believe in God we don't have to because God does not need our belief. But if we choose to believe in God it is just silly to think we know more than God and it is an exercise in futility to think we can make God do anything.

People who do not like what they believe God does or does not do can stay angry at God if they want to, but they only hurt themselves... I know, because I was angry at God for about 10 years.

 

[sayak83]

Good question...

If someone stops you from doing something you wanted to do, or if they made you do something you did not want to do, then they interfered with a free will decision you might have otherwise made.

Likewise, God can intervene in free will decisions we might have made, but God does not do that all the time, and we cannot ever know if and when God does that because God is unknowable. I am sure God prevents a lot of evil, but how do you think we can know it was God doing it?

If God is benevolent and All-Knowing God knows when to intervene and when not to. Some bad things that happen to us end up being for our good, even if we do not realize that until later. If we cannot believe in that kind of God that cares and knows what He is doing, it is better not to believe in God at all.

The issue here is not that God cannot tamper with our free will but rather the issue is that we cannot order God around and expect God to do what we want. Why should an Almighty God who created the entire universe do what we want Him to do? It is really illogical and arrogant to think we could ever know as much or more than God because no human is All-Knowing. How could we mere humans know better than God what is best for us?

God is All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise so whatever God does (or does not do) is better than anything we could ever think to do. Any God who is not all of those things is not worthy of our belief or our worship.

If we do not want to believe in God we don't have to because God does not need our belief. But if we choose to believe in God it is just silly to think we know more than God and it is an exercise in futility to think we can make God do anything.

People who do not like what they believe God does or does not do can stay angry at God if they want to, but they only hurt themselves... I know, because I was angry at God for about 10 years.

So... there is no evil in the world, since God would have actually stopped them if they were actually evil? Is that your position?

So the following argument is sound?

I wish to do X.
Other people perceive X to be evil.
But when I actually go about doing X, I encounter no resistance from the ultimate knower of what is good and what is evil, God.
Thus these other people are mistaken and X is actually good, and it's our limited knowledge that make it appear evil.
Further no person other than God has the right to stop me from doing X, as God is not stopping me and only He has perfect knowledge about whether this act of mine is good or evil.


Do you agree?

 

[Trailblazer]

Look, I understand: YOU BELIEVE THAT MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

I think that is one of the most UNETHICAL things imaginable.

Straw man. I do not believe might makes right. Being All-Knowing and All-Wise makes right.

What can you do? You prefer bronze age ethics. I prefer modern era ethics.

Spoiler Alert! I am not a Christian, I am a Baha'i. My religion began in 1844 and it is the "current" revelation from God. I do not live according to the Bible. I live according to the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

The ethics Baha'u'llah taught were for the modern age.
Bahá'í teachings - Wikipedia

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No, that does not compute because the ALL POWERFUL GOD delegated the responsibility for preventing evil to humans.

Isn't that a bit like a parent delegating doing the taxes to their newborn infant?

Too bad some people just cannot accept that they have ANY responsibilities or accountability...

Well, we are supposed to be like God, right? Shirking duty is a concept that comes from somewhere.

That would be like a parent who does not allow their children to grow up.

A SMART parent, though, won't think a 5 year old is ready to drive a car or vote in an election or do the taxes.

God is all powerful. WE are not. The one with the superior skills should shoulder most of the burden.

Moses:
The city is made of bricks. The strong make many, the starving make few, the dead make none. So much for accusations.

In other words, asking humans to do something that would be solved much more efficiently with superpowers isn't nice nor smart.

Just because God does not do what you expect does not make God evil.

No, when God defines actions and thoughts as good or evil and then does things that He Himself labeled "evil" makes God evil.

HE supposedly defined morality. He doesn't get to evade the implications of it.

Mature adults accept responsibility for their actions and they accept that the world is not perfect.

Mature gods do, too.

The creator is not accountable to the created.

Why not? I feel it is my moral responsibility to treat whatever and whoever I bring into my house with love and care. Why must I be more moral than God?

Why shift the blame somewhere else ?

Because watching Superman tell a normal human being to lift the speeding train off the track to save some innocents is stupid.

I do not believe God is indifferent to our suffering but rather there is a reason for suffering that we cannot fully understand.

I think Job portrays it quite well, though it does read more like a fairy tale than a historical event. Sometimes Satan just jerks God's chain thanks to God's incessant insecure pettiness.

People just need to do the best they can to be good and help others and endure suffering, knowing that this mortal life is not forever, it is a small part of our total existence.

If we are doing the work, the Boss doesn't get any of the credit.

What you apparently do not understand is that God cannot just prevent evil with the wave of a magic wand.

I am willing to concede that more ancient versions of gods didn't have omnimax powers. It explains a lot.

If you want God not to be evil, then He must be unable. As soon as you declare Him able but not willing, He becomes a villain, not just some poor schlep who can't get the job done because He's not qualified.

God has intervened by sending Messengers who brought the teachings and laws we need to do good and prevent evil, but if people do not recognize the Messenger or follow what He taught, it is not God's fault.

Messengers with curious lessons. If the sign of a false prophet is one who can't get it right, then ....

Many states allow lists of pedophiles and the neighborhoods where they live to be published. Since you are so worried about evil, and since statistically we know a high percentage will re offend, what have you done to stop this ? Nothing.

So you're saying delegating to those powerless to do anything about it is a dumb idea?

As the STATE freed the pedo, then it is the STATE'S responsibility to protect society's children from them.

It wants us to have free will and use it, so that is why we have it.

Why is He misusing HIS?

I am no Special Messenger.

Are you and others not on here to declare the superiority of your religion? I mean, I believe I talk to God and God communicates back. I don't want followers, in myself or even maybe God. The WAY is more important, because individuals in the Way can be corrupted.

Indeed. Could not this god of theirs give police a sort of Godly Inspiration? Such that the officer gets a hunch, and gets there just in time to intervene....

God's armies are defeated by chariots of iron. Imagine the slaughter of the holy legions when modern guns and missiles are involved.

Likewise, God can intervene in free will decisions we might have made, but God does not do that all the time, and we cannot ever know if and when God does that because God is unknowable. I am sure God prevents a lot of evil, but how do you think we can know it was God doing it?

If He is truly unknowable, neither you nor your prophet have anything to say.

My religion began in 1844 and it is the "current" revelation from God.

There are more current religions than yours, though, and there always will. Everyone boasts of the Last Prophet and the next day LO AND BEHOLD, yet another one appears!

 

[Trailblazer]

So... there is no evil in the world, since God would have actually stopped them if they were actually evil? Is that your position?

No, that is not exactly what I meant. God stops some evil from happening but not all evil from happening. Sometimes what happens is for the ultimate good, even if it appears to be evil to us or to other people. So in that sense maybe you could say there is no evil even though there are evil deeds.

Actually, according to my beliefs, evil has no independent existence. Evil is just the absence of Good:
74: THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

So the following argument is sound?

I wish to do X.
Other people perceive X to be evil.
But when I actually go about doing X, I encounter no resistance from the ultimate knower of what is good and what is evil, God.
Thus these other people are mistaken and X is actually good, and it's our limited knowledge that make it appear evil.

Further no person other than God has the right to stop me from doing X, as God is not stopping me and only He has perfect knowledge about whether this act of mine is good or evil.

Do you agree?

Yes, I think you are in the ball park. Only God knows what is best for us. We should act according to our own sense of morality and things may or may not go as we hope. If they do not, we can assume it was God's will and choose another path.

Nobody has the right to make you do anything or stop you from doing anything, but we all live with or among other people so we should consider them when we decide what to do for ourselves.

 

[sayak83]

No, that is not exactly what I meant. God stops some evil from happening but not all evil from happening. Sometimes what happens is for the ultimate good, even if it appears to be evil to us or to other people. So in that sense maybe you could say there is no evil even though there are evil deeds.

Actually, according to my beliefs, evil has no independent existence. Evil is just the absence of Good:
74: THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

Yes, I think you are in the ball park. Only God knows what is best for us. We should act according to our own sense of morality and things may or may not go as we hope. If they do not, we can assume it was God's will and choose another path.

Nobody has the right to make you do anything or stop you from doing anything, but we all live with or among other people so we should consider them when we decide what to do for ourselves.

But could not Hitler make the same argument as he proceeded to gas the Jews. God allowed it. So it must be an ultimate good. So Hitler was doing good?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: No, that does not compute because the ALL POWERFUL GOD delegated the responsibility for preventing evil to humans.

Isn't that a bit like a parent delegating doing the taxes to their newborn infant?

No, because adult humans are not newborns. God does not delegate responsibilities to newborns. Their parents are responsible for taking care of them.

Trailblazer said: Too bad some people just cannot accept that they have ANY responsibilities or accountability...

Well, we are supposed to be like God, right? Shirking duty is a concept that comes from somewhere.

No, we are not expected to be like God. NOBODY is like God. We are only expected to follow the teachings of the Messengers who God sends.

Trailblazer said: That would be like a parent who does not allow their children to grow up.

A SMART parent, though, won't think a 5 year old is ready to drive a car or vote in an election or do the taxes.

God is all powerful. WE are not. The one with the superior skills should shoulder most of the burden.

It does not work that way. God is not a human being. God does not have skills. You are anthropomorphizing God and putting God on the same level with a human, like an All-Powerful human.

Children grow up to be adults and as soon as they are adults they are considered accountable under the law. That means that they are capable of making their own decisions. If they murder someone, they pay the penalty.

Trailblazer said: Just because God does not do what you expect does not make God evil.

No, when God defines actions and thoughts as good or evil and then does things that He Himself labeled "evil" makes God evil.

HE supposedly defined morality. He doesn't get to evade the implications of it.

God sets the standards of morality by virtue of sending Messengers who reveal teachings and laws. God is not subject to His own laws. God is not a human. Only humans have morals.

Trailblazer said: Mature adults accept responsibility for their actions and they accept that the world is not perfect.

Mature gods do, too.

God is All-Knowing and All-Wise and infallible, the Creator of the whole universe, yet you try to bring him down to a human level. This is illogical on its face. God is not subject to being mature. God is not a human being.

Trailblazer said: People just need to do the best they can to be good and help others and endure suffering, knowing that this mortal life is not forever, it is a small part of our total existence.

If we are doing the work, the Boss doesn't get any of the credit.

God does not need credit or take credit. God is fully self-sufficient, above the need for any of His creatures.

Trailblazer said: What you apparently do not understand is that God cannot just prevent evil with the wave of a magic wand.

I am willing to concede that more ancient versions of gods didn't have omnimax powers. It explains a lot.

If you want God not to be evil, then He must be unable. As soon as you declare Him able but not willing, He becomes a villain, not just some poor schlep who can't get the job done because He's not qualified.

God is not responsible to do anything just because God is able. God gave man free will so man can do what he needs to. God sent Messengers with messages so we would know what to do.

Trailblazer said: God has intervened by sending Messengers who brought the teachings and laws we need to do good and prevent evil, but if people do not recognize the Messenger or follow what He taught, it is not God's fault.

Messengers with curious lessons. If the sign of a false prophet is one who can't get it right, then ....

But the true Prophet got it right, and the lessons are from God. If people shoose to disobey they will suffer the consequences.

Trailblazer said: It wants us to have free will and use it, so that is why we have it.

Why is He misusing HIS?

Who says He is? Do you really think you know more than an All-Knowing God? That is logically impossible.

Trailblazer said: I am no Special Messenger.

Are you and others not on here to declare the superiority of your religion? I mean, I believe I talk to God and God communicates back. I don't want followers, in myself or even maybe God. The WAY is more important, because individuals in the Way can be corrupted.

I am here just to converse with people. I do not consider my religion superior, just more current than the older religions.

Trailblazer said: Likewise, God can intervene in free will decisions we might have made, but God does not do that all the time, and we cannot ever know if and when God does that because God is unknowable. I am sure God prevents a lot of evil, but how do you think we can know it was God doing it?

If He is truly unknowable, neither you nor your prophet have anything to say.

That is true.

Trailblazer said: My religion began in 1844 and it is the "current" revelation from God.

There are more current religions than yours, though, and there always will. Everyone boasts of the Last Prophet and the next day LO AND BEHOLD, yet another one appears!

There might be newer religions but there are no revelations from God that are more current.

 

[Trailblazer]

But could not Hitler make the same argument as he proceeded to gas the Jews. God allowed it. So it must be an ultimate good. So Hitler was doing good?

No, it is not that simple. There is much more to this than what we have been talking about but I cannot get into it tonight. Suffice to say, some things happen for a reason we cannot understand. Only God knows. Some of what happens is punishment for humanity not heeding God's warnings that come through His Messengers, and innocent people are hurt or killed in the crossfire. But they are recompensed in the afterlife, according to God's justice and mercy.

 

[sayak83]

No, it is not that simple. There is much more to this than what we have been talking about but I cannot get into it tonight. Suffice to say, some things happen for a reason we cannot understand. Only God knows. Some of what happens is punishment for humanity not heeding God's warnings that come through His Messengers, and innocent people are hurt or killed in the crossfire. But they are recompensed in the afterlife, according to God's justice and mercy.

I will wait. Feel free to go into it when you have time.

 

[MangoJuice]

hunnh? I am so sorry-- I read your post... twice... and whereas you say a lot of things, I did not get any point you may have been trying to make, towards my post.

If you are complaining that I refuse to capitalize the first letter of god-labels, because they have never been proven to exist?

Well...... that's nice. You can easily make me look the fool, by producing the god in question.

It ought to be easy enough, right? Seeing as there is all this .... "evidence"?

Right?

Wow, I think I was complaining about the wording of somebody else's post, not necessarily yours. As far as the rest, you know as well as I that using capital letters on both fictional and non-fictional creatures is not only common practice it is normal English. My point is when you know you are talking about God as a singular such as the Christian or Catholic Church believe or Allah for Islam or Santa for children, you use a starting capital letter because you know that the appropriate form is that of a proper noun. Wow. Here's a question for you, for the following, do you capitalise the word, Allah, Thor, Odin. These are all gods and you would capitalise them. If my name was Table, would you capitalise that, of course it is the name for a specific entity even though there are lots of tables, Santa, Peter Pan whatever. Making a point of not doing so is small-minded and typical of Atheism trying to insult specifically religions which believe in God.

You also know that I cannot produce proof and neither am I interested in producing proof. There might be a number of things you believe are true, for example, you might believe that planets circle the stars of one of our sister galaxies. Can you produce proof, of course not, you just know that it is true and I'm not going to ask you for proof because I know there is none.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it is not that simple. There is much more to this than what we have been talking about but I cannot get into it tonight. Suffice to say, some things happen for a reason we cannot understand. Only God knows. Some of what happens is punishment for humanity not heeding God's warnings that come through His Messengers, and innocent people are hurt or killed in the crossfire. But they are recompensed in the afterlife, according to God's justice and mercy.

From what I can see, that alone makes your deity evil. Allowing Hitler to gas millions of people, even as a 'punishment', is evil.

And yes, I will judge your deity by *at least* the same standards I would a human being. If that deity is all knowing and all powerful, it is already more responsible for evil than any person could ever be.

 

[Polymath257]

No, that is not exactly what I meant. God stops some evil from happening but not all evil from happening. Sometimes what happens is for the ultimate good, even if it appears to be evil to us or to other people. So in that sense maybe you could say there is no evil even though there are evil deeds.

Actually, according to my beliefs, evil has no independent existence. Evil is just the absence of Good:
74: THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

Yes, I think you are in the ball park. Only God knows what is best for us. We should act according to our own sense of morality and things may or may not go as we hope. If they do not, we can assume it was God's will and choose another path.

Nobody has the right to make you do anything or stop you from doing anything, but we all live with or among other people so we should consider them when we decide what to do for ourselves.

And this is how people justify the evil of a deity. I'm sorry, but child or torture are NOT just the 'absence of God'. They are evil acts whether or not a God exists. making a claim that they are 'for a higher good' is an excuse to justify inaction by a responsible party.

 

[Polymath257]

I'd be careful what you ask for. God is Almighty even if you do not believe that.
He is not my God and I do not have any control over Him because I am not Almighty.

Empty threats based on a non-existent entity are not a reason to refrain from critique of evil.

 

[Sunstone]

...when you know you are talking about God as a singular... you use a starting capital letter...

@MangoJuice, please quit butchering English grammar, for Pete's sake! You are misleading people.

Do You Capitalize the word "God"?

God (Capitalization)

God or god? To capitalize or not to Capitalize

Honestly, this is basic grammar that was taught to every primary level school child in my day. If it was not taught to you, your teachers were incompetent in that specific regard.

Making a point of not doing so is small-minded and typical of Atheism trying to insult specifically religions which believe in God

[yawn] ignorant atheist-bashing drivel [/yawn]

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Wow, I think I was complaining about the wording of somebody else's post, not necessarily yours. As far as the rest, you know as well as I that using capital letters on both fictional and non-fictional creatures is not only common practice it is normal English. My point is when you know you are talking about God as a singular such as the Christian or Catholic Church believe or Allah for Islam or Santa for children, you use a starting capital letter because you know that the appropriate form is that of a proper noun. Wow. Here's a question for you, for the following, do you capitalise the word, Allah, Thor, Odin. These are all gods and you would capitalise them. If my name was Table, would you capitalise that, of course it is the name for a specific entity even though there are lots of tables, Santa, Peter Pan whatever. Making a point of not doing so is small-minded and typical of Atheism trying to insult specifically religions which believe in God.

You also know that I cannot produce proof and neither am I interested in producing proof. There might be a number of things you believe are true, for example, you might believe that planets circle the stars of one of our sister galaxies. Can you produce proof, of course not, you just know that it is true and I'm not going to ask you for proof because I know there is none.

Would I capitalize "proper" names of god? That would depend on how insistent the god-pusher was, that I "respect his 'god-given' authority".

Would I use a capital G at the beginning of a sentence? Yes, but I could also rewrite the sentence to make than unnecessary.

Making a point of not doing so is small-minded ...

Is it, now? It seems to have bothered you a great deal-- sufficient that you felt needful to reply.

And thus you illustrate at least one very good reason for not using capital letters when naming gods. It reminds god-pushers that their gods do not automatically deserve respect they insist that they are due.

If the purveyors of gods would keep their religion out of local politics? And quit taking a tax-dodge on the backs of taxpayers? I would not bother them at all, nor would I care what they were about.

But that isn't the case, is it? They insist that we "respect their authority!" by passing laws ensuring we are forced to.

 

[shmogie]

How very christian of you. Did you know that unhumble talk is unattractive and is not a good example of jesus and his humility to believers coming to his father?

Any critic to this isnt helping the matter. I know it may be hard. We're all human. Take a break and come back with an open mind. The arguments may make more sense and your fustration wont cloud the points youre making.

Obviously you haven't followed my exchanges with this poster. Your judgement is noted.Go back, reread all the exchanges before you judge. I am not frustrated, dear girl, I am amused. I have an open mind, nevertheless, in an open mind nonsense is nonsense. I suggest you re familiarize yourself with Christ's exchanges with the pharisee's, and see what you think. Yes, humility is of extreme value.