Isn't it better to be atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: It is not God's responsibility to prevent evil.

Then? YOUR GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL --- REPEAT--- ALL EVIL, EVER.

Because, according to you? Your god is ALL POWERFUL.

The two really do go hand-in-glove, in spite of your silly apologetics.

No, that does not compute because the ALL POWERFUL GOD delegated the responsibility for preventing evil to humans.

Too bad some people just cannot accept that they have ANY responsibilities or accountability....

All-Powerful does not mean God has to do everything for lazy do-nothing humans who don't want to take any responsibility. That would not be doing those humans any favors. That would be like a parent who does not allow their children to grow up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How do you know that God does not prevent some evil?

If true? The immoral beast you worship is then playing Special Favorites-- picking and choosing a Select Few, while ignoring the vast majority.

Evil.

Sorry, that is just the way the cookie crumbles because you cannot control an Almighty God. My lot in life has not been good but I finally accepted that is just the way it is. Suffering is not equally distributed.

Just because God does not do what you expect does not make God evil. I am sorry you cannot understand that.

Trailblazer said: How do you know that God is sitting back and looking at evil and doing nothing?
Do you know the mind of God and his daily itinerary?

Because the evil keeps happening? And nothing godlike is bothering to intervene?

This is kind of a duuuuuuhhh question you asked.

The evil keeps happening because humans do evil or fail to prevent it. I am sorry you cannot understand that. God is not responsible for what humans do.

God is not responsible to intervene just because YOU want him to... God is not a short order cook. Mature adults accept responsibility for their actions and they accept that the world is not perfect. Moreover, they work to make the world a better place, rather than complaining about God.

 

[sayak83]

Sorry, that is just the way the cookie crumbles because you cannot control an Almighty God. My lot in life has not been good but I finally accepted that is just the way it is. Suffering is not equally distributed.

Just because God does not do what you expect does not make God evil. I am sorry you cannot understand that.
The evil keeps happening because humans do evil or fail to prevent it. I am sorry you cannot understand that. God is not responsible for what humans do.

God is not responsible to intervene just because YOU want him to... God is not a short order cook. Mature adults accept responsibility for their actions and they accept that the world is not perfect. Moreover, they work to make the world a better place, rather than complaining about God.

You have a confused and incoherent theology. It is an extremely strange argument that if a moral being observes an evil occuring which he could prevent, he ought not to do so because somebody else is supposed to be responsible for its prevention. You appear sincere and a nice person, but it does appear that your thinking about God's proper role and form is not well fleshed out.

 

[MangoJuice]

I think you are miss-characterizing these atheists.

It isn't that they believe in alien life-- it's just that looking at the odds to the best of our knowledge? It seems a likely hypothesis.

Vastly different from believe.

I'll be happy to use a capital G, just as soon as you manage to have your god show up in person.

Until then? It gets all the respect it deserves. Which is to say, none at all.

Now hang on there a second Bob,

Carlita's post clearly had the following;

"Do you understand the type of logic in this convo?
Also, I cannot prove god does not exist. He does not exist to begin with.
How do you prove god does not exist when he does not to begin with?"

The use of God here is as a name, much as I would use Thor, or Odin or the like, this is strengthened by the use of the phrase "He does not exist...". That's fine but when it is used as a singular, clearly in the context of a proper noun, a Capital is called for or a lesson in grammar for the clumsy English.

The author in this case is simply trying to insult the beliefs and intelligence of the audience.

Try replacing the god with toaster or the like and even you might be able to concede that the lower case 'g' is a subtle insult which atheists like to use but it doesn't work here. When you are talking singular about an entity that some-one believes exists by name, for example santa, panda or whatever, you respect that the object is a single definitive entity unless it is a group, as in the gods of Rome in which case the lower case is okay.

If you were referring to the Allah of Islam, would you drop the case for example? The poster in this case, might have correctly used the below, still sounds awkward but hey, I didn't want to muck about with other peoples posts too much.

Possible revision:
Also, I cannot prove the gods does not exist. They do not exist to begin with.
How do you prove gods do not exist when they do not to begin with?

"I'll be happy to use a capital G, just as soon as you manage to have your god show up in person. "

I'm going to get back to my original idea here which was that hey, I know and count as friends a lot of really intelligent atheists. There is a sense that the odds favour life on other worlds but I would offer to you the same proof of God as you might offer of intelligent life elsewhere. Just because you think my understanding of the universe is wrong because it doesn't match yours, does not make you right. I cannot drop an angel at your feet and neither can you drop and alien at mine.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

NO, by illogical I mean that a God that has All Power and All Knowledge, a God that is Responsible for all of existence, cannot be Accountable to humans for anything it does... if you cannot figure out why that is, I cannot help you. It is logic 101 stuff.

God does not have to answer to YOU or to any human... If you cannot figure out why I suggest you take some courses in logic.

Hint: All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise does not answer to those who are not any of those things because they do not know as much or have as much power.

ANY God that does what humans think it should do ceases to be Godly; because the definition of Godly is an omnipotent God that does only what it wants to do... Too bad you don't like it. There is nothing you can do about it except complain.

Okay-- let me sum up your apologistics above:

"Gawd Is Mysterious an' stuff. 'Eee don' answer to nuthin'. Gawd, 'Eee is All Moighty and Stuff. Gawd, 'Eee does whatever 'Eee wanst!"

In short: Might Makes Right.

Except? That it doesn't under modern ethics. Alas, you are still living in the Dark Ages, here.

Your god? Is nothing short of an EVIL MONSTER.

Which is GOOD: because your god is also clearly MYTH.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, it just presumes a God that knows more than you do about how to create and run a universe, since it created the entire universe.

Do you think you know more than an ALMIGHTY GOD about how to create humans and run a universe?
This would be funny if you were not serious.

To Sum Up: Might Makes Right.

(except that it actually does not... it's Evil. Ergo, your god? Evil.)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, that does not compute because the ALL POWERFUL GOD delegated the responsibility for preventing evil to humans.

Too bad some people just cannot accept that they have ANY responsibilities or accountability....

All-Powerful does not mean God has to do everything for lazy do-nothing humans who don't want to take any responsibility. That would not be doing those humans any favors. That would be like a parent who does not allow their children to grow up.

Dude! Your god is worse than a DEADBEAT DAD, who refuses to pay child support for .... *ahem*.... "reasons".

You worship an EVIL BEING. Period.

Good thing it's myth, now isn't it?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Now hang on there a second Bob,

Carlita's post clearly had the following;

"Do you understand the type of logic in this convo?
Also, I cannot prove god does not exist. He does not exist to begin with.
How do you prove god does not exist when he does not to begin with?"

The use of God here is as a name, much as I would use Thor, or Odin or the like, this is strengthened by the use of the phrase "He does not exist...". That's fine but when it is used as a singular, clearly in the context of a proper noun, a Capital is called for or a lesson in grammar for the clumsy English.

The author in this case is simply trying to insult the beliefs and intelligence of the audience.

Try replacing the god with toaster or the like and even you might be able to concede that the lower case 'g' is a subtle insult which atheists like to use but it doesn't work here. When you are talking singular about an entity that some-one believes exists by name, for example santa, panda or whatever, you respect that the object is a single definitive entity unless it is a group, as in the gods of Rome in which case the lower case is okay.

If you were referring to the Allah of Islam, would you drop the case for example? The poster in this case, might have correctly used the below, still sounds awkward but hey, I didn't want to muck about with other peoples posts too much.

Possible revision:
Also, I cannot prove the gods does not exist. They do not exist to begin with.
How do you prove gods do not exist when they do not to begin with?

"I'll be happy to use a capital G, just as soon as you manage to have your god show up in person. "

I'm going to get back to my original idea here which was that hey, I know and count as friends a lot of really intelligent atheists. There is a sense that the odds favour life on other worlds but I would offer to you the same proof of God as you might offer of intelligent life elsewhere. Just because you think my understanding of the universe is wrong because it doesn't match yours, does not make you right. I cannot drop an angel at your feet and neither can you drop and alien at mine.

hunnh? I am so sorry-- I read your post... twice... and whereas you say a lot of things, I did not get any point you may have been trying to make, towards my post.

If you are complaining that I refuse to capitalize the first letter of god-labels, because they have never been proven to exist?

Well...... that's nice. You can easily make me look the fool, by producing the god in question.

It ought to be easy enough, right? Seeing as there is all this .... "evidence"?

Right?

 

[shmogie]

Spoiler Alert... Posting to nonbelievers of all shapes and sizes is my hobby, so I have been down this road before...

That is a straw man. I never said that overriding free will would ruin free will... My boss might override a decision I make but that does not take away my decision-making powers.

I only ever said that if God were to prevent all evil in the world God would have to override free will choices of everyone who was planning to do evil. If God did that, God would be making them into robots for that period of time.

Interesting hobby ! Some demand absolute free will so that anybody can do anything without the slightest consideration of Gods view on what they are doing. When this abuse of free will run amok has hideous results, they demand that God immediately erase all results and consequences of that free will they demanded. Certainly there are innocents harmed by this abuse, but that itself is the result of aberrant use of free will. As my Mom used to say, they want to have their cake, but gobble it down as well.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Interesting hobby ! Some demand absolute free will so that anybody can do anything without the slightest consideration of Gods view on what they are doing. When this abuse of free will run amok has hideous results, they demand that God immediately erase all results and consequences of that free will they demanded. Certainly there are innocents harmed by this abuse, but that itself is the result of aberrant use of free will. As my Mom used to say, they want to have their cake, but gobble it down as well.

No. We simply expect accountability.

If a forking COMIC BOOK gets it?

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibility.

We expect that a being classed as "god" would be the Ultimate Example of Responsible.

Looking around the place? If there is a god-- it's most notable trait is one of cruel indifference.

 

[Looncall]

Sorry, that is just the way the cookie crumbles because you cannot control an Almighty God. My lot in life has not been good but I finally accepted that is just the way it is. Suffering is not equally distributed.

Just because God does not do what you expect does not make God evil. I am sorry you cannot understand that.
The evil keeps happening because humans do evil or fail to prevent it. I am sorry you cannot understand that. God is not responsible for what humans do.

God is not responsible to intervene just because YOU want him to... God is not a short order cook. Mature adults accept responsibility for their actions and they accept that the world is not perfect. Moreover, they work to make the world a better place, rather than complaining about God.

What about natural evils: floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, droughts etc? People do not cause those.

What about the constant, horrific suffering in nature? People do not cause that either.

Reality exhibits only pitiless indifference. No gods to be seen.

 

[shmogie]

No. We simply expect accountability.

If a forking COMIC BOOK gets it?

With Great Power, comes Great Responsibility.

We expect that a being classed as "god" would be the Ultimate Example of Responsible.

Looking around the place? If there is a god-- it's most notable trait is one of cruel indifference.

The creator is not accountable to the created. You are responsible, I am responsible, humanity is responsible. Why shift the blame somewhere else ? Ultimately justice will be served and those responsible without good legal and moral representation, along with evil itself will cease to exist, bank on it. The interlocutory decree is granted, it's implementation cannot be stopped. Everything you demand will be given. It's a done deal.

 

[Trailblazer]

What about natural evils: floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, droughts etc? People do not cause those.

What about the constant, horrific suffering in nature? People do not cause that either.

Reality exhibits only pitiless indifference. No gods to be seen.

You are right. There is a lot of suffering in the world and people do not cause all of the suffering. Some of the suffering is the result of how the world was created, so in that sense we could blame God, but since we do not understand everything God does we cannot know why it was created this way. we can know some of that, from what religions teach, but we cannot know all of it. We will know more after we die.

Bob and I were talking about evil, and I was talking in the sense of moral choices humans make that cause suffering for other humans and animals. Much human suffering is causes by man's inhumanity to man because of moral choices man makes.

We cannot know if God is indifferent to our suffering by the mere fact that we do not SEE God doing anything. I do not believe God is indifferent to our suffering but rather there is a reason for suffering that we cannot fully understand. More of it is the nature of the material world, which is a storehouse of suffering. Some people suffer more, some less, and that does not seem fair, yet another thing we cannot fully understand while still in this mortal life.

This mortal life is just a very small part of our total existence. If we do what is needed to prepare for the afterlife, there will be no more suffering in the afterlife. There will be only joy.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have a confused and incoherent theology. It is an extremely strange argument that if a moral being observes an evil occuring which he could prevent, he ought not to do so because somebody else is supposed to be responsible for its prevention. You appear sincere and a nice person, but it does appear that your thinking about God's proper role and form is not well fleshed out.

What you apparently do not understand is that God cannot just prevent evil with the wave of a magic wand. God gave man free will, so humans are responsible to do good and prevent evil.

If God stepped into this world and interfered by preventing evil, it would upset the entire system that God created. God is not going to do that because there was a reason it was created this way. People just need to do the best they can to be good and help others and endure suffering, knowing that this mortal life is not forever, it is a small part of our total existence.

God has intervened by sending Messengers who brought the teachings and laws we need to do good and prevent evil, but if people do not recognize the Messenger or follow what He taught, it is not God's fault.

 

[Trailblazer]

To Sum Up: Might Makes Right.

(except that it actually does not... it's Evil. Ergo, your god? Evil.)

I think we are done here because all that can be said has been said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay-- let me sum up your apologistics above:

"Gawd Is Mysterious an' stuff. 'Eee don' answer to nuthin'. Gawd, 'Eee is All Moighty and Stuff. Gawd, 'Eee does whatever 'Eee wanst!"

In short: Might Makes Right.

Except? That it doesn't under modern ethics. Alas, you are still living in the Dark Ages, here.

Your god? Is nothing short of an EVIL MONSTER.

Which is GOOD: because your god is also clearly MYTH.

I think we are done here because all that can be said has been said.
You will have to find another sounding board for your hate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dude! Your god is worse than a DEADBEAT DAD, who refuses to pay child support for .... *ahem*.... "reasons".

You worship an EVIL BEING. Period.

Good thing it's myth, now isn't it?

I think we are done here because all that can be said has been said.
You will have to find another sounding board for your hate.

God is not a myth, God is a reality, one you will be faced with after you die.
It will not be so funny then.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting hobby ! Some demand absolute free will so that anybody can do anything without the slightest consideration of Gods view on what they are doing. When this abuse of free will run amok has hideous results, they demand that God immediately erase all results and consequences of that free will they demanded. Certainly there are innocents harmed by this abuse, but that itself is the result of aberrant use of free will. As my Mom used to say, they want to have their cake, but gobble it down as well.

It is a hobby I am getting bored with... I do not mind talking to nonbelievers but I cannot deal with the irrationality and the hate of some. They will never understand why an All-Powerful God is not responsible to do everything for them because they do not want to take any responsibility. It is always God's fault. Woe betide them on judgment day. I can only do what I can do. I cannot break through their delusions.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The creator is not accountable to the created. You are responsible, I am responsible, humanity is responsible. Why shift the blame somewhere else ? Ultimately justice will be served and those responsible without good legal and moral representation, along with evil itself will cease to exist, bank on it. The interlocutory decree is granted, it's implementation cannot be stopped. Everything you demand will be given. It's a done deal.

Sure-- humanity is responsible for a lot of things that turned out evil.

However-- there are countless examples of god-preventable evil in the world.

That evil does, in fact, exist-- if there is an All Powerful God? IT IS PURE EVIL FOR ALLOWING IT TO HAPPEN.

And no-- it doesn't count if god stands by, watching the evil happen, with the empty promise:

"Oh, I am SO SORRY, little Jimmy, that the priest is hurting you. But You Betcha! I'll torture him FOREVER. Just You Wait. Once he dies at 80 of a bad heart, you BET I'll get right on that Torture! Too bad the entire time you live-- too short-- will also be torturous. But, hey, I'm all mysterious and stuff."

 

[Looncall]

You are right. There is a lot of suffering in the world and people do not cause all of the suffering. Some of the suffering is the result of how the world was created, so in that sense we could blame God, but since we do not understand everything God does we cannot know why it was created this way. we can know some of that, from what religions teach, but we cannot know all of it. We will know more after we die.

Bob and I were talking about evil, and I was talking in the sense of moral choices humans make that cause suffering for other humans and animals. Much human suffering is causes by man's inhumanity to man because of moral choices man makes.

We cannot know if God is indifferent to our suffering by the mere fact that we do not SEE God doing anything. I do not believe God is indifferent to our suffering but rather there is a reason for suffering that we cannot fully understand. More of it is the nature of the material world, which is a storehouse of suffering. Some people suffer more, some less, and that does not seem fair, yet another thing we cannot fully understand while still in this mortal life.

This mortal life is just a very small part of our total existence. If we do what is needed to prepare for the afterlife, there will be no more suffering in the afterlife. There will be only joy.

I find it difficult to imagine a more dangerous ideology. No wonder climate change deniers and suchlike are so prevalent.