Isn't it better to be atheists?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Let me ask you this...

(a) How do you know that God is indifferent?
(b) How do you know what God is doing/not doing?
(c) What do you expect God to do?

A) the existence of god-preventable EVIL in the world.
B) See my point A---- since the god-preventable evil exists? NO god is preventing it... or there simply is no god in the first place.
C) see A and B.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Not sure what you are getting at here?

Let's try something else

1. Life exists on other planets (the claim)
2. Really, show me. Have you got an alien there in your pocket? (inquiring for more info)
1. I can't show you but there are lots of stars and planets and stuff so life on other planets must exist (Counterclaim)
2. Okay, so what does this life look like (Asking again for more info)
1. I cannot answer your question (Then you don't have proof??)
2. But you made a claim that life exists on other planets, why should I believe you when you cannot produce said life?

I personally think we are alone in the universe and you cannot prove otherwise.
Interestingly, a lot of atheists I have met and know do believe in alien life, not sure how that works.

Oh, and God is spelt with a capital 'G', thanks.

I think you are miss-characterizing these atheists.

It isn't that they believe in alien life-- it's just that looking at the odds to the best of our knowledge? It seems a likely hypothesis.

Vastly different from believe.

I'll be happy to use a capital G, just as soon as you manage to have your god show up in person.

Until then? It gets all the respect it deserves. Which is to say, none at all.

 

[shmogie]

you had a point? I thought you could not possibly care less? Just like the indifferent deity you call "god"....

You can´t read Bob. goodbye

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't understand that, but I like the term, "palpable ignorance".
That's me!

To paraphrase that passage, it means it is clear and plain ignorance to think that a God that created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, created the sun and all of the material existence for man’s benefit, would not love man.

God bestows kindness and sheds His Light upon everyone, no matter what religion he belongs to, even if he is an atheist or a materialist

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How would God prevent evil without taking away the free will choices of humans and making them do only good things, like robots programmed only to do good?

I can think of at least a dozen ways-- and I'm not a god with All The Knowledge--- EVER.

So what are they? Talk is cheap.

It appears we have found yet another thing your supposedly "all powerful" god cannot do...

I never said God could not do it; I said God would have to override free will in order to do it.

You presume that every action is all good or all evil-- when in fact, the majority of actions are neutral, or only partly good, or even some good with some evil too.

Take surgery: it is evil, because it is literally cutting someone up. But it is good, because in the process, the person gets better, and/or lives longer or is healthier/happier/etc.
Your simplistic approach? Is too simple, which is why you fail.

I never presumed that there are only two states, good or evil. Of course, everything exists along a continuum I talk about good and evil only in the context of human moral actions, not to things like surgery. Good and evil actions of humans exist along a continuum, and there are value judgements involved, because what is good to one person might be considered evil by another person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: And again I ask why a good deity would do that and how would a deity do that without taking away free will choices? What if the evil serves a good purpose?

I would say that #3 is the most likely of the three.
How would a parent, be a Good Parent to his or her child?

Oh Noes! The Parent won't let the kid go play in traffic! Parent is taking away child's Free Will! Child wants to play in traffic, child needs to play in traffic-- is FUN! Why is Parent being so MEAN?

Parent sadly watches child frolic in traffic right up until the bus smacks the now dead thing into the next county...

Poor, pitiful parent-- if only there was some way to prevent the child from playing in traffic that did not take away it's free will?

How would a parent, be a Good Parent to his or her child?

Oh Noes! The Parent won't let the kid go play in traffic! Parent is taking away child's Free Will! Child wants to play in traffic, child needs to play in traffic-- is FUN! Why is Parent being so MEAN?

Parent sadly watches child frolic in traffic right up until the bus smacks the now dead thing into the next county...

Poor, pitiful parent-- if only there was some way to prevent the child from playing in traffic that did not take away it's free will?

Your analogy falls flat on its face because the way God set it up is that children have HUMAN parents to protect them and make their choices for them when need be.

Your analogy falls flat on its face because adults are not children so they do not NEED God making their choices for them. They have free will so they can make their own choices, and they are adults so they are responsible for their OWN choices.

Humans do not need God on their coattails telling them what to do. God sent Messengers who brought what humans need to know in order to make the right moral choices. That is how God intervenes in human affairs... There is no reason for God to do ANYTHING ELSE because people can read what the Messenger wrote.

God does not go on trial if a negligent parent allows a child to play in traffic and that child gets killed as a result. The parent might go on trial because all rational people understand that adult humans are FULLY responsible for their actions, thus accountable for their actions.

Only a few atheists hold God accountable for human moral choices. That is completely irrational since all humans have the free will to make their own moral choices. Most atheists are more rational than to ever say God is responsible for what humans do. Most atheists simply say that they do not believe in God because there is not enough evidence. There is nothing irrational about that since not all people view the evidence we have the same way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Let me ask you this...

(a) How do you know that God is indifferent?
(b) How do you know what God is doing/not doing?
(c) What do you expect God to do?

A) the existence of god-preventable EVIL in the world.
B) See my point A---- since the god-preventable evil exists? NO god is preventing it... or there simply is no god in the first place.
C) see A and B.

It is not God's responsibility to prevent evil. God gave humans the tools humans need to prevent their own evil. Now it is humans' responsibility to use the tools...

Dear boss: I do not want to come to work anymore. I just want to play golf all day long. Can you pay me anyway?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So what are they? Talk is cheap.
I never said God could not do it; I said God would have to override free will in order to do it.

I never presumed that there are only two states, good or evil. Of course, everything exists along a continuum I talk about good and evil only in the context of human moral actions, not to things like surgery. Good and evil actions of humans exist along a continuum, and there are value judgements involved, because what is good to one person might be considered evil by another person.

And yet... .parents the world over manage to raise children without ruining their free will.

Amazing!

So much more capable than the god you claim is "good".

"God works in mysterious, ineffective and breathtakingly cruel ways." ~ Penn Jillette

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your analogy falls flat on its face because the way God set it up is that children have HUMAN parents to protect them and make their choices for them when need be.

Your analogy falls flat on its face because adults are not children so they do not NEED God making their choices for them. They have free will so they can make their own choices, and they are adults so they are responsible for their OWN choices.

Humans do not need God on their coattails telling them what to do. God sent Messengers who brought what humans need to know in order to make the right moral choices. That is how God intervenes in human affairs... There is no reason for God to do ANYTHING ELSE because people can read what the Messenger wrote.

God does not go on trial if a negligent parent allows a child to play in traffic and that child gets killed as a result. The parent might go on trial because all rational people understand that adult humans are FULLY responsible for their actions, thus accountable for their actions.

Only a few atheists hold God accountable for human moral choices. That is completely irrational since all humans have the free will to make their own moral choices. Most atheists are more rational than to ever say God is responsible for what humans do. Most atheists simply say that they do not believe in God because there is not enough evidence. There is nothing irrational about that since not all people view the evidence we have the same way.

The above apologetics utterly fails to answer the point I made.

It is merely excuses for why the god you believe in, utterly and completely fails to be Responsible.

So, my original argument stands:

Your god is either evil or indifferent, but cannot possibly be considered good.

Of course-- it is far more likely your god simply doesn't exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: So what are they? Talk is cheap.
I never said God could not do it; I said God would have to override free will in order to do it.

I never presumed that there are only two states, good or evil. Of course, everything exists along a continuum I talk about good and evil only in the context of human moral actions, not to things like surgery. Good and evil actions of humans exist along a continuum, and there are value judgements involved, because what is good to one person might be considered evil by another person.

And yet... .parents the world over manage to raise children without ruining their free will.

Amazing!

Spoiler Alert... Posting to nonbelievers of all shapes and sizes is my hobby, so I have been down this road before...

That is a straw man. I never said that overriding free will would ruin free will... My boss might override a decision I make but that does not take away my decision-making powers.

I only ever said that if God were to prevent all evil in the world God would have to override free will choices of everyone who was planning to do evil. If God did that, God would be making them into robots for that period of time.

 

[Trailblazer]

The above apologetics utterly fails to answer the point I made.

It answered it perfectly. You just did not like my answer.

It is merely excuses for why the god you believe in, utterly and completely fails to be Responsible.

To say that an omnipotent/omniscient God is Responsible to humans for anything it does is the MOST illogical thing I have ever heard.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I only ever said that if God were to prevent all evil in the world God would have to override free will choices of everyone who was planning to do evil. If God did that, God would be making them into robots for that period of time.

Nice little strawman you have there.

I never said **all** evil. I specifically, and on multiple occasions, said god-preventable evil.

Silly me-- I thought that was clear enough a distinction.

You are content with a do-nothing god, who sits back and serenely looks on as evil is done on a daily basis in the world.

Such a creature is beyond immoral, demonstrates absolutely zero empathy and is unworthy of any title except "beast".

It is certainly unworthy of any form of worship.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It answered it perfectly. You just did not like my answer.

To say that an omnipotent/omniscient God is Responsible to humans for anything it does is the MOST illogical thing I have ever heard.

Gotcha: by "illogical" what you mean is "does not agree with my silly beliefs"

Your "answer" was a tirade of idiotic (and sad) excuses why your god utterly fails to be Godly.

Don't feel bad-- all gods fail that test.

"God works in mysterious, ineffective and breathtakingly cruel ways. " ~ Penn Jilette.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I only ever said that if God were to prevent all evil in the world God would have to override free will choices of everyone who was planning to do evil. If God did that, God would be making them into robots for that period of time.

100% false BS claim. Your statement presumes a god who is rather INEPT and incapable of looking forward to how a newborn will grow up to behave.

But. IF YOUR GOD IS ALL-KNOWING? IT KNOWS THIS INFORMATION.

It even knows this BEFORE that would-be-evil-doer is conceived. Do SPERM have free will?

All this ALL KNOWING thing has to do? Is select for a DIFFERENT sperm-- and viola! No grow-up-to-do-evil is even born!

Over several generations? NO MORE EVIL IN THE WORLD. Not unlike growing a specific strain of roses in a garden-- only with PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Is your god a GOD or is your god just some pathetic, can't do sh--- looky-loo?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is not God's responsibility to prevent evil.

Then? YOUR GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL --- REPEAT--- ALL EVIL, EVER.

Because, according to you? Your god is ALL POWERFUL.

The two really do go hand-in-glove, in spite of your silly apologetics.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nice little strawman you have there.

I never said **all** evil. I specifically, and on multiple occasions, said god-preventable evil.

Silly me-- I thought that was clear enough a distinction.

How do you know that God does not prevent some evil?

You are content with a do-nothing god, who sits back and serenely looks on as evil is done on a daily basis in the world.

Such a creature is beyond immoral, demonstrates absolutely zero empathy and is unworthy of any title except "beast".

It is certainly unworthy of any form of worship.

How do you know that God is sitting back and looking at evil and doing nothing?
Do you know the mind of God and his daily itinerary?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

How do you know that God does not prevent some evil?

If true? The immoral beast you worship is then playing Special Favorites-- picking and choosing a Select Few, while ignoring the vast majority.

Evil.

How do you know that God is sitting back and looking at evil and doing nothing?
Do you know the mind of God and his daily itinerary?

Because the evil keeps happening? And nothing godlike is bothering to intervene?

This is kind of a duuuuuuhhh question you asked.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: It answered it perfectly. You just did not like my answer.

To say that an omnipotent/omniscient God is Responsible to humans for anything it does is the MOST illogical thing I have ever heard.
Gotcha: by "illogical" what you mean is "does not agree with my silly beliefs"

NO, by illogical I mean that a God that has All Power and All Knowledge, a God that is Responsible for all of existence, cannot be Accountable to humans for anything it does... if you cannot figure out why that is, I cannot help you. It is logic 101 stuff.

Your "answer" was a tirade of idiotic (and sad) excuses why your god utterly fails to be Godly.

God does not have to answer to YOU or to any human... If you cannot figure out why I suggest you take some courses in logic.

Hint: All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise does not answer to those who are not any of those things because they do not know as much or have as much power.

ANY God that does what humans think it should do ceases to be Godly; because the definition of Godly is an omnipotent God that does only what it wants to do... Too bad you don't like it. There is nothing you can do about it except complain.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I only ever said that if God were to prevent all evil in the world God would have to override free will choices of everyone who was planning to do evil. If God did that, God would be making them into robots for that period of time.

100% false BS claim. Your statement presumes a god who is rather INEPT and incapable of looking forward to how a newborn will grow up to behave.

No, it just presumes a God that knows more than you do about how to create and run a universe, since it created the entire universe.

But. IF YOUR GOD IS ALL-KNOWING? IT KNOWS THIS INFORMATION.
It even knows this BEFORE that would-be-evil-doer is conceived. Do SPERM have free will?
All this ALL KNOWING thing has to do? Is select for a DIFFERENT sperm-- and viola! No grow-up-to-do-evil is even born!
Over several generations? NO MORE EVIL IN THE WORLD. Not unlike growing a specific strain of roses in a garden-- only with PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Is your god a GOD or is your god just some pathetic, can't do sh--- looky-loo?

Do you think you know more than an ALMIGHTY GOD about how to create humans and run a universe?
This would be funny if you were not serious.

 

[sayak83]

NO, by illogical I mean that a God that has All Power and All Knowledge, a God that is Responsible for all of existence, cannot be Accountable to humans for anything it does... if you cannot figure out why that is, I cannot help you. It is logic 101 stuff.

God does not have to answer to YOU or to any human... If you cannot figure out why I suggest you take some courses in logic.

Hint: All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise does not answer to those who are not any of those things because they do not know as much or have as much power.

ANY God that does what humans think it should do ceases to be Godly; because the definition of Godly is an omnipotent God that does only what it wants to do... Too bad you don't like it. There is nothing you can do about it except complain.

Refusing to answer is the last recourse of those who bluff... just like the being who pretends to be God in Job.
Papa Hitler always knows best... who can know the deep reasons for what papa Hitler does... so says all his blind followers.