Whatever one thinks of Israel, and however one views the current conflict, this callous, intentional, and oft times ignorant game of weaponizing terms with deep and traumatic associations with the Shoah is disgusting.
The glass house syndrome.
Weaponized terms like "anti-semitic" & "blood libel"
are tossed about like confetti by Israel's apologists.
More terminological mischief....
Millions of others were executed in the Holocaust,
but their plight fades into obscurity, despite most
victims not being Jews....
Excerpted (underlining added)...
The term Holocaust, derived from a Greek word meaning "burnt offering",[4] has become the most common word used to describe the Nazi extermination of Jews in English and many other languages.[a] The term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of other groups that the Nazis targeted,The Holocaust - Wikipedia especially those targeted on a biological basis, in particular the Roma and Sinti, as well as Soviet prisoners of war and Polish and Soviet civilians.[5][6][7] All of these groups, however, were targeted for different reasons.[8]By the 1970s, the adjective Jewish was dropped as redundant and Holocaust, now capitalized, became the default term for the destruction of European Jews.[9] The Hebrew word Shoah ("catastrophic destruction") exclusively refers to Jewish victims.
Right now in Gaza it is Thursday Feb. 1st at 6:18AM. This is what Gaza looks like. The row of buildings closest to the border are 80-90% destroyed. The buildings along the horizon line beyond that first layer look better. However, this is how it looked yesterday. The worst appears to be over. I'll keep monitoring the web-cam daily to see if there are any changes.
BTW, I get news 5 days a week from Israel on the JBS, and they show plenty of pictures.
Also, our oldest granddaughter just got back home from Israel as she volunteered to go there for 2 weeks on her own dime and prepare medical kits for both the IDF and Palestinians. Three days ago, she had to go into a bomb shelter because of rockets being fired at them from Gaza.
BTW, I get news 5 days a week from Israel on the JNS, and they show plenty of pictures.
Also, our oldest granddaughter just got back home from Israel as she volunteered to go there for 2 weeks on her own dime and prepare medical kits for both the IDF and Palestinians. Three days ago, she had to go into a bomb shelter because of rockets being fired at them from Gaza.
Thank you, and thank you to your daughter. I have a friend volunteering there as well. I'll check out the JNS, thanks for the tip. One aspect of the article in the OP that is obviously ignored are the vast number of unprovoked / unjustified rockets that have been fired into israel over the past several decades.
One aspect of the article in the OP that is obviously ignored are the vast number of unprovoked / unjustified rockets that have been fired into israel over the past several decades.
Also, our oldest granddaughter just got back home from Israel as she volunteered to go there for 2 weeks on her own dime and prepare medical kits for both the IDF and Palestinians. Three days ago, she had to go into a bomb shelter because of rockets being fired at them from Gaza.
Since those Palestinians were injured to begin with because of the IDF's bombing, it seems to me that the best way not to create more of them would be not to aid or support the IDF in what it is currently doing.
I'm glad your granddaughter is safe and back home. I wish the same for the civilians, whether Palestinian or Israeli, who have suffered as a result of the war.
I have no idea what this has to do with my post, since I was addressing the IDF's actions and didn't make any arguments about "'stolen land' and 'storming Al-Aqsa.'"
Thank you, and thank you to your daughter. I have a friend volunteering there as well. I'll check out the JNS, thanks for the tip. One aspect of the article in the OP that is obviously ignored are the vast number of unprovoked / unjustified rockets that have been fired into israel over the past several decades.
Unprovoked? I do not support the killing of innocent people. But are we ignoring that the Gazans are basically living in an open air prison? Decades of oppression, unlawful imprisonment and the Palestinians living in an Apartheid state? 75 years of oppression. Children seeing their parents die in front of them, their houses destroyed, their land being taken from them. Are you really surprised that they turn to violence? They have given up on the international community because they can't even call for a ceasefire.
What did you expect them to do throw flowers over the fence instead. Let us keep a single standard..if Hamas needs to be dismantled for firing rockets and for what they did on the 7th October then likewise the current Israeli government and IDF needs to be dismantled for the crimes they have committed against innocent civilians.
Whatever one thinks of Israel, and however one views the current conflict, this callous, intentional, and oft times ignorant game of weaponizing terms with deep and traumatic associations with the Shoah is disgusting.
I prefer to use the term open air prison instead. We can recognize a nation's suffering while not denying the other. The term " never again” after the Holocaust was supposed to ensure the world would never stand by as human rights atrocities were committed. And I hope that because of that we can stand with the Gazans..
I have no idea what this has to do with my post, since I was addressing the IDF's actions and didn't make any arguments about "'stolen land' and 'storming Al-Aqsa.'"
Also, our oldest granddaughter just got back home from Israel as she volunteered to go there for 2 weeks on her own dime and prepare medical kits for both the IDF and Palestinians. Three days ago, she had to go into a bomb shelter because of rockets being fired at them from Gaza.
Since those Palestinians were injured to begin with because of the IDF's bombing, it seems to me that the best way not to create more of them would be not to aid or support the IDF in what it is currently doing.
"... to begin with ... " indicates assigning the root cause as the IDF bombing. That is a false narrative employed by propagandists, historical revisionists. Because of this I corrected your statement directing you to the *actual* root cause and a better way to prevent bombings. Don't aid the propagandists who are revising history and/or lying by omission.
The root cause of the conflict, and thus the root cause of the bombings, was omitted from your post.
@Debater Slayer, Metis is talking about individuals leaving their homes because of rockets coming from Hezbollah.
"... to begin with ... " indicates assigning the root cause as the IDF bombing. That is a false narrative employed by propagandists, historical revisionists. Because of this I corrected your statement directing you to the *actual* root cause and a better way to prevent bombings. Don't aid the propagandists who are revising history and/or lying by omission.
When I was in elementary school, I bought the propaganda
that "Israel made the desert bloom" by moving into a vacant
land. Later I discovered this lie. Israelis killed many, drove
out many, stole their land, & imposed brutal apartheid.
But are we ignoring that the Gazans are basically living in an open air prison? Decades of oppression, unlawful imprisonment and the Palestinians living in an Apartheid state?
1) Oppression: The "oppression" is a direct consequence of ongoing, rocket fire, suicide bombings, and innocents being murdered. ALL of that is omitted from the article that was posted in the OP. Specifically, Metis and I are discussing the ongoing rocket fire.
The oppression is a consequence. That means the rockets came first. The suicide bombings came first. THEN the oppresssion came after. This is self-determination of the Palestinain people. There are many of them who have determined that terroists can find safe harbor within their communities. Because of this, their borders are severely restricted just like the border between any two countries where one of them harbors terrorists.
2) Unlawful imprisonment: During times of war, the laws for imprisonment change. Israel has been in a consttant state of war, declared by the Arabs.
3) Apartheid: The purpose of Israel is to be a refuge of the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland. It is not a refuge for Palestinians. But that does not make it an apartheid state. It is a young nation wiith some problems to work out, but, Palestinians which are not israeli citizens do not have equal rights because... they are not israeli citizens. In France, I do not have equal rights compared to a French citizen, because ... I am not a citizen of France.
75 years of oppression. Children seeing their parents die in front of them, their houses destroyed, their land being taken from them. Are you really surprised that they turn to violence?
Not at all surprised. It's still wrong. All of it is a consequence of the unjustified attacks on jewish people and the rumors, propaganda, and false history being taught and believed.
Let us keep a single standard..if Hamas needs to be dismantled for firing rockets and for what they did on the 7th October then likewise the current Israeli government and IDF needs to be dismantled for the crimes they have committed against innocent civilians.
The single standard is called "first-blood". None the less, this is a massively false equivalence.
Hamas and the other factions which are working with them intentionally target innocents. Israel does not.
Hamas executes its political rivals. Hanging them from control towers. Intimidating / terrorising any who oppose them. Enough Palestinians respect this and seemingly enjoy it to permit the violent extremists to remain in power. And to make sure thhey remain in power, Hamas cancelled elections after their 2006-2007 coup.
The israeli government doesn't do this to its political rivals. The israeli government holds regular elections.
Here's pictures in a spoiler of Hamas' torture of fellow Palestinians. Notice that torture leaves a mark. Israel doesn't do this. Many accuse israel of torturing the detainees. The detainee is released andd claims of constant beating. But the only marks are on their wrists are from the zip-tie restraints. Sometimes pictures of those injured in battle and then detained are taken and presented on twitter or in arab media with misleading captions. But so far, there is nothing happening in israel which is comparable to what Hamas does to its victims.
Hopefully you noticed I located these by searching the document for "Al-Shifa" the hospital in Gaza which many deny was a base of operations. It's been known for a decade that Hamas used the facility. Torturing people this wway does not go unnoticed. The staff of the hospital either cooperated with Hamas or were too initimidated or terrified to do anything about it.
The source of these pictures is amnesty.org This is what "daming evidence" looks like.
When I was in elementary school, I bought the propaganda
that "Israel made the desert bloom" by moving into a vacant
land. Later I discovered this lie. Israelis killed many, drove
out many, stole their land, & imposed brutal apartheid.
The "root cause of the conflict" would require its own thread to discuss, and it has no bearing on what I said. The IDF's bombardment of Gaza has killed over 26,000 Palestinians and injured over 65,000 others. That's what I referred to in my post.
If you mean the "root cause of the conflict," then you misinterpreted what I posted. You could have asked instead of concluding something and responding based on it. If you mean the "root cause" of the current death and injury among tens of thousands of Gazans, then I stand by what I said.
The cause of over 26,000 deaths and over 65,000 injuries among Palestinians is the IDF's bombing. The "root cause of the conflict" is an altogether different topic.
That is a false narrative employed by propagandists, historical revisionists. Because of this I corrected your statement directing you to the *actual* root cause and a better way to prevent bombings. Don't aid the propagandists who are revising history and/or lying by omission.
You seem to have reacted to something you assumed I was implying, not the point I was actually making. Besides, I see no "correction" in what you said. I think anyone who tries to rationalize the IDF's current actions toward Gazan civilians as acceptable is, intentionally or not, adopting a dehumanizing and one-dimensional view that brushes aside the basic rights and concerns of Palestinian civilians. There are people on this very forum whose posts about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have fundamentally changed my views over the years, but a common factor among them is that none of them have been proponents of such an oversimplified and casually dehumanizing belief, be it toward Palestinian or Israeli civilians.
It doesn't inspire confidence that discussion will be productive when I see any argument that the killing and injuring of tens of thousands of civilians is simply something I must find acceptable or justifiable. I wouldn't expect you to be optimistic about discussions with people who think Hamas' massacring of Israeli civilians was acceptable or justifiable either. I know I'm not.
Metis and I were discussing the intentional omission of the long history of continuous rocket fire into israel.
Metis references the current rocket fire from Hezbollah into israel.
You interjected, further obscuring the long history of continuous rocket fire into israel so that you can refer to the 26,000 Palestinians and 65,000 injured in this recent conflict.
The cause of those deaths and injuries, as you wrote, "to begin with" are the false narratives, revision of history, and omission of facts.
The bombs are a consequence not a cause. The Palestinians attacked, they were given opportunity to leave. THEN the bombs occured. None of it would have happened without the Palestinian attack and their support for the violent extremists.
Metis and I were discussing the intentional omission of the long history of continuous rocket fire into israel.
Metis references the current rocket fire from Hezbollah into israel.
You interjected, further obscuring the long history of continuous rocket fire into israel so that you can refer to the 26,000 Palestinians and 65,000 injured in this recent conflict.
I pointed out that the best way to avoid further injuries and deaths among Palestinians would be not to support the IDF in its current actions. I fully stand by that. It is simply a fact that the IDF's actions are the cause of the tens of thousands of injuries among Palestinians, and the different topic of the region's history doesn't change that.
The IDF bears responsibility for its actions. When the IDF bombs a residential building and entire families are buried under the rubble, the direct cause is the bombing.
The bombs are a consequence not a cause. The Palestinians attacked, they were given opportunity to leave. THEN the bombs occured. None of it would have happened without the Palestinian attack and their support for the violent extremists.
It doesn't inspire confidence that discussion will be productive when I see any argument that the killing and injuring of tens of thousands of civilians is simply something I must find acceptable or justifiable. I wouldn't expect you to be optimistic about discussions with people who think Hamas' massacring of Israeli civilians was acceptable or justifiable either. I know I'm not.
Feel free to tag me for a discussion when or if you're no longer inclined to label the utter atrocity of killing and injuring tens of thousands of Gazan civilians as "necessary." Seeing the "other side" as equal humans might lead to a more productive discussion, because your current arguments, whether intentionally or not, don't seem to me to be giving equal consideration to civilian lives from the "other side."
Consider what you would think and how you would feel if someone called Hamas' October 7 massacre "necessary." That should give you an approximate idea of what many people, me included, think of statements like the one I just responded to.
The IDF bears responsibility for its actions. When the IDF bombs a residential building and entire families are buried under the rubble, the direct cause is the bombing.
Argument from ignorance... unless you have access to israeli military intelligence. You don't know whether or not there is military necessity of striking that building. It is no longer a "residential building" if it used by an enemy fighter for military purposes. The direct cause is the military use of a residential structure.
That's also rather one dimensional. Weakening israel encourages it to be attacked on multiple fronts. Reducing its military capability encourages rocket fire, suicide bombings, and terrorist attacks on innocent people. Hezbollah and others are looking for signs of weakness which they can exploit.
That's a multi-dimensional view. Considering the conversation was about hezbollah rockets entering israel. And the most recent threat referred to was rocket fire from Gaza. The suggestion to reduce military aid to israel would likely make things worse regarding rocket fire into israel, and a whole host of other threats to innocent individuals.
When israel is perceived as weak, the terroists attack. This has a consequence where the neighboring countries get attacked in order to create a buffer between the israeli border and those which wage unjustified war against it. Innocent non-israelis get caught in the cross-fire. Weakening israel will harm the people of whom you and others are advocating.
