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Israel attacks gaza strip

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Elessar

Well-Known Member
I'm so impressed by your words!!
There comes the ugly face!...
Now I can comfortably claim that israel is making this whole thing to occupy the entire land, and maybe somewhere in the next 100 years committ to invade other lands...Nothing would gauruntee us peace this way...

Thanks for making you intentions that clear...

You miss the point entirely - my point is, that territory is taken by the victors from the losers when a war occurs. The Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948, in 1967, and in 1973. Any territory taken by Israel in these defensive wars is legal and legitimate - any claim otherwise is ignorant of historical precedent going back from the Babylonian conquests to the very war which the United Nations gained territory itself against its enemies.

I showed the DISMANTLING of Germany by the two wars instigated by itself (or its allies) - first, the seizure of Danzig for Poland, after World War I, Alsace-Lorraine for France and Schleswig-Holstein for Denmark, and then, the total seizure of Prussia and Silesia after World War II, and its territorial division between four of the five primary members of the United Nations after the war. You show your ignorance of history by calling it "Nazi Germany", when the maps I show are NOT of Nazi Germany at all, but of Imperial Germany, Weimar Germany, and postwar UN-occupied Germany.
 
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gnomon

Well-Known Member
If you are wondering why I'm sympathyzing that much, thats only because Gazans=all arabs, as I stated earlier..

Thanks

Really?

Who is Arab? Arabic languages are older than known Arabic cultures?

Are all speakers of Arabic Arab?

What about the Afro-Arabs? Are they also Gazan?

The janjaweed?

Also, Arabic states range from the majority of the Middle East through North Africa and along the East Coast of Africa including some Saharan areas as well. Is all that land looking to be divided up?

Is all that "your" land? Are all the peoples of that land "Gazan"?
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
You miss the point entirely - my point is, that territory is taken by the victors from the losers when a war occurs. The Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948, in 1967, and in 1973.What are you talking about?..1973 was invading Israel?! Any territory taken by Israel in these defensive wars is legal and legitimate - any claim otherwise is ignorant of historical precedent going back from the Babylonian conquests to the very war which the United Nations gained territory itself against its enemies. Ok, then according to what you say, the "defensive war" by Palestinian people is legal, and accordingly, any territories to be taken are to be Palestinian...am I right?

I showed the DISMANTLING of Germany by the two wars instigated by itself (or its allies) - first, the seizure of Danzig for Poland, after World War I, Alsace-Lorraine for France and Schleswig-Holstein for Denmark, and then, the total seizure of Prussia and Silesia after World War II, and its territorial division between four of the five primary members of the United Nations after the war. You show your ignorance of history by calling it "Nazi Germany", when the maps I show are NOT of Nazi Germany at all, but of Imperial Germany, Weimar Germany, and postwar UN-occupied Germany.Don't get it...The second map shows occupied territories by Germany in WW2...Wasn't that the Nazi Germany?..or am I missing something?!


gnomon said:
Really?

Who is Arab? Arabic languages are older than known Arabic cultures?

Are all speakers of Arabic Arab?

What about the Afro-Arabs? Are they also Gazan?

The janjaweed?

Also, Arabic states range from the majority of the Middle East through North Africa and along the East Coast of Africa including some Saharan areas as well. Is all that land looking to be divided up?

Is all that "your" land? Are all the peoples of that land "Gazan"?
What are you trying to say?!
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
That is a pathetic lie - one that you clearly find obscenely nourishing.
Is the distinction between firing indiscriminate weapons into civilians buildings but with the intention of killing terrorists and simply targeting civilians significant to you? I doubt it is to the fathers rushing their children to hospital or to those who will have to bury their dead in the days ahead.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Is the distinction between firing indiscriminate weapons into civilians buildings but with the intention of killing terrorists and simply targeting civilians significant to you? I doubt it is to the fathers rushing their children to hospital or to those who will have to bury their dead in the days ahead.
Yes, and as a parent I can't imagine what that must feel like to lose a child, never mind a whole family. It's heartbreaking and if Jayhawker can't see that just because he has labelled them as "terrorists", then that is really sad imo.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
What are you trying to say?!

I'm trying to figure out how you justify stating "we" and "our" when you are not Palestinian?

Your reply was arab=Gazan. I asked if you were Palestinian. The modern usage of the term Palestinian equals Arab is a political equation. Not an ethnic one. Palestinian historically includes Arabs and Jews. Just to name two.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
I'm trying to figure out how you justify stating "we" and "our" when you are not Palestinian?

Your reply was arab=Gazan. I asked if you were Palestinian. The modern usage of the term Palestinian equals Arab is a political equation. Not an ethnic one. Palestinian historically includes Arabs and Jews. Just to name two.
Palestinians come from Arabic deciplines...And now, we are all called arabs!
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I'm so impressed by your words!!
There comes the ugly face!...
Now I can comfortably claim that israel is making this whole thing to occupy the entire land, and maybe somewhere in the next 100 years committ to invade other lands...Nothing would gauruntee us peace this way...

Thanks for making you intentions that clear...

The way i took it was that conquests (or failed conquests eg. the 6 day war) effect the lands occupied by people. Thus, in the same way Germany has become a lot smaller, Palestine has as well. Now they lost the war and are pretending that Israel is some kind of land theiving monster. The arab nations gave up Israel by attacking them. Now, they should consider themselves lucky they still have the Gaza strip. Its as though they think they own the land. Well no, they lost it, get over it and stop making your children suffer.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
The way i took it was that conquests (or failed conquests eg. the 6 day war) effect the lands occupied by people. Thus, in the same way Germany has become a lot smaller, Palestine has as well. Now they lost the war and are pretending that Israel is some kind of land theiving monster. The arab nations gave up Israel by attacking them. Now, they should consider themselves lucky they still have the Gaza strip. Its as though they think they own the land. Well no, they lost it, get over it and stop making your children suffer.
All that aside is, what do you make of the situation in Gaza?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
All that aside is, what do you make of the situation in Gaza?

Rediculous. Its a shame so many people (especially the innocent ones) have to die over land. I also hate that Palestinians would rather suffer and fight Israel, than be at peace and recieve essential supplies. I think this war should end but im not holding my breath. I think too much blood has been spilt for there to be a reversal. Its kill or be killed so to speak.
I am annoyed about people claiming Israel to be terrorists because of the excessive force they use. I don't see a reason why they should not, especially when the weapons are avaliable to them. If Palestine had that kind of technology they would use it to. The simple fact is, they're playing with fire, but are whinging about getting burnt. Civilians make up a large percentage of every casualty count, its terrible but it cannot be helped. Sadly i don't think destroying Hamas will stop Palestine's constant war against Israel. There are more radical fools ready to take the mantle. I really do not know what either side can hope to achieve.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Rediculous. Its a shame so many people (especially the innocent ones) have to die over land. I also hate that Palestinians would rather suffer and fight Israel, than be at peace and recieve essential supplies. I think this war should end but im not holding my breath. I think too much blood has been spilt for there to be a reversal. Its kill or be killed so to speak. I am annoyed about people claiming Israel to be terrorists because of the excessive force they use. I don't see a reason why they should not, especially when the weapons are avaliable to them. If Palestine had that kind of technology they would use it to. The simple fact is, they're playing with fire, but are whinging about getting burnt. Civilians make up a large percentage of every casualty count, its terrible but it cannot be helped. Sadly i don't think destroying Hamas will stop Palestine's constant war against Israel. There are more radical fools ready to take the mantle. I really do not know what either side can hope to achieve.
I agree to an extent. However, I cannot see anything other than condemnation being the reasonable response to the killing of civilians. Firing rockets into schools in the complete knowledge that you are going to kill children is not terrorism (probably), but it is murder. There has been an almost complete disregard for human rights, and if this episode doesn't radicalise more Palestinians I'll volunteer to become a human shield for the IDF. Civilians deaths are unavoidable I agree, but more could be done to reduce the threat to people in their homes, on the street, or sheltering in public buildings. The Israeli invasion is in response, remember, to attacks on civilians - killing or injuring people not involved in combat is equally atrocious whether done out of ideological lunacy or for revenge. Is killing another nation's children in tens or hundreds to protect your own not racism?
 
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Elessar

Well-Known Member
EiNsTeiN said:
You miss the point entirely - my point is, that territory is taken by the victors from the losers when a war occurs. The Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948, in 1967, and in 1973.What are you talking about?..1973 was invading Israel?! Any territory taken by Israel in these defensive wars is legal and legitimate - any claim otherwise is ignorant of historical precedent going back from the Babylonian conquests to the very war which the United Nations gained territory itself against its enemies. Ok, then according to what you say, the "defensive war" by Palestinian people is legal, and accordingly, any territories to be taken are to be Palestinian...am I right?

I showed the DISMANTLING of Germany by the two wars instigated by itself (or its allies) - first, the seizure of Danzig for Poland, after World War I, Alsace-Lorraine for France and Schleswig-Holstein for Denmark, and then, the total seizure of Prussia and Silesia after World War II, and its territorial division between four of the five primary members of the United Nations after the war. You show your ignorance of history by calling it "Nazi Germany", when the maps I show are NOT of Nazi Germany at all, but of Imperial Germany, Weimar Germany, and postwar UN-occupied Germany.Don't get it...The second map shows occupied territories by Germany in WW2...Wasn't that the Nazi Germany?..or am I missing something?!


Yes, 1973 was invading Israel -

Wikipedia said:
The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War (Hebrew: מלחמת יום הכיפורים‎; transliterated: Milkhemet Yom HaKipurim or מלחמת יום כיפור, Milkhemet Yom Kipur; Arabic: حرب أكتوبر‎; transliterated: ħarb October or حرب تشرين, ħarb Tishrin), also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War and the Fourth Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973 by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria against Israel. The war began with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria on Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement. Egypt and Syria crossed the cease-fire lines in the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.[7]

Not only that, it was cowardly to invade on the most holy day in Judaism.

But, also, yes, if Palestinians conquered territory in a war against Israel, then that territory would, by the right of conquest, be Palestinian. However, I highly doubt that Palestine would be able to conquer such against a nation which defeated a coalition of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq - some of the most powerful Arab countries - multiple times in defensive actions.

And, no, the maps show no Nazi Germany whatsoever.

Map 1 is of the German Empire, as it existed before the first World War, as ruled by the House of Hohenzollern, from the Treaty of Versailles of 1871 until the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk of 1917.
Map 2 is of the German State, as it existed when under the government of the Weimar Republic government, from the Treaty of Versailles of 1919 until the Anschluss of Germany and Austria in 1938 (the very first Nazi expansion).
Map 3 is of the German Occupied Territory, as it existed from the Potsdam Declaration by the United Nations Organization in 1945 until the merger of the British Quarter, the French Quarter, and the American Quarter into the Federal Republic of Germany and the reconstitution of the Soviet Quarter as the German Democratic Republic in 1949.

None of these maps shows Nazi German acquisitions whatsoever.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
[/color]

Yes, 1973 was invading Israel -



Not only that, it was cowardly to invade on the most holy day in Judaism.

But, also, yes, if Palestinians conquered territory in a war against Israel, then that territory would, by the right of conquest, be Palestinian. However, I highly doubt that Palestine would be able to conquer such against a nation which defeated a coalition of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq - some of the most powerful Arab countries - multiple times in defensive actions.
You know what?...You just showed me how stupid I was thinking there could ever be peace with Israel!...Such a horrible organization can only be treated via weopon!..

I sincerly wish there are few people like you over there, otherwise, it's gonna be an everlasting war...
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
I agree to an extent. However, I cannot see anything other than condemnation being the reasonable response to the killing of civilians. Firing rockets into schools in the complete knowledge that you are going to kill children is not terrorism (probably), but it is murder. There has been an almost complete disregard for human rights, and if this episode doesn't radicalise more Palestinians I'll volunteer to become a human shield for the IDF. Civilians deaths are unavoidable I agree, but more could be done to reduce the threat to people in their homes, on the street, or sheltering in public buildings. The Israeli invasion is in response, remember, to attacks on civilians - killing or injuring people not involved in combat is equally atrocious whether done out of ideological lunacy and for revenge. Is killing another nation's children in tens or hundreds to protect your own not racism?
Good post..

And I'm sorry to turn into this emotional person who speaks with less logic...But I have to when I find people like Elessar legalising conquering others lands, and with the horrible situation at Gaza being humilated and treated with less superiority within the entire context
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I agree to an extent. However, I cannot see anything other than condemnation being the reasonable response to the killing of civilians. Firing rockets into schools in the complete knowledge that you are going to kill children is not terrorism (probably), but it is murder. There has been an almost complete disregard for human rights, and if this episode doesn't radicalise more Palestinians I'll volunteer to become a human shield for the IDF. Civilians deaths are unavoidable I agree, but more could be done to reduce the threat to people in their homes, on the street, or sheltering in public buildings. The Israeli invasion is in response, remember, to attacks on civilians - killing or injuring people not involved in combat is equally atrocious whether done out of ideological lunacy and for revenge. Is killing another nation's children in tens or hundreds to protect your own not racism?

Like i said its rediculous. I agree with you, on one hand i can see what Israel is doing, on the other, i hate it that so many innocent people are dying. A few civilian casuaties are unavoidable, but there seems to be a lot, too many. Israel needs to use its vast superiorority to prevent, as much as possible, the deaths of defenseless people. I support the ground assault if war must be waged, as i believe munitions do not reap havoc like a missile dropped from 10,000 feet.

When you talk about human rights what do you mean? Are you of the opinion that Israel should improve the humanitarian situation of Palestine while they fight? To be honest, its not Israel's problem. They are not responsible for the well being of Palestine, Hamas is. It would have been like the Russians feeding the Nazi's in Stalingrad in WWII. Sure they could help them out. They could feed the women and children, but, what guarantee is there that their aid won't be feeding the radicals instead?

Given your last sentence: Are Americans, Australians and British racists. Our soldiers fight for our protection and they have killed many civilians? Are we racist? I don't think its racism but i sure as hell don't agree with it.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Here are some quotes by the founder of the jewish state, David Ben-Gurion:

"We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

"To maintain the status quo will not do. We have to set up a dynamic state bent upon expansion"

"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country."

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
(Seems Like the guy didn't care much about his people!)

How do you think such a state would settle for peace?...They want war, they want to acquire more lands, they find their vision in making the entire region dynamic and not stable...(David's words, not mine!)
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Like i said its rediculous. I agree with you, on one hand i can see what Israel is doing, on the other, i hate it that so many innocent people are dying. A few civilian casuaties are unavoidable, but there seems to be a lot, too many. Israel needs to use its vast superiorority to prevent, as much as possible, the deaths of defenseless people. I support the ground assault if war must be waged, as i believe munitions do not reap havoc like a missile dropped from 10,000 feet.

When you talk about human rights what do you mean? Are you of the opinion that Israel should improve the humanitarian situation of Palestine while they fight? To be honest, its not Israel's problem. They are not responsible for the well being of Palestine, Hamas is. It would have been like the Russians feeding the Nazi's in Stalingrad in WWII. Sure they could help them out. They could feed the women and children, but, what guarantee is there that their aid won't be feeding the radicals instead?

Given your last sentence: Are Americans, Australians and British racists. Our soldiers fight for our protection and they have killed many civilians? Are we racist? I don't think its racism but i sure as hell don't agree with it.
At least you weren't targetting them!..

I dont care about Hamas, I dont care about Israel...I just care about the conditions of the war...

Israel committed too many war crimes in the last 10 days, breaking all the UN resolutions regarding wars, and causing the misery of an entire nation, and rage everywhere worldwide...
 

Elessar

Well-Known Member
Good post..

And I'm sorry to turn into this emotional person who speaks with less logic...But I have to when I find people like Elessar legalising conquering others lands, and with the horrible situation at Gaza being humilated and treated with less superiority within the entire context

Conquest is and always has been legal. If not, then I guess we have to break Saudi Arabia up into its constituent parts, and I suppose Turkey will have to turn itself back over to Greece and move back to Kazakhstan.

However, it is not unreasonable for nations to trade land which they own, legally, in exchange for things. For example, Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt in exchange for a permanent peace treaty, and negotiated a truce based on occupied East Bank territory, pulling out of that in making a permanent peace treaty with Jordan. As we speak, Israel is in negotiations with Syria concerning the status of the Golan Heights, which may indeed be returned to Syria in exchange for a permanent peace treaty.

The Palestinian Territories, certainly, should be constituted into a State of Palestine which is totally sovereign and independent of the State of Israel, and many steps have been taken in that direction, but peace can never be achieved as long as Palestinian terrorists (and, no, I'm not branding all Palestinians as terrorists) continue to attack Israel in ANY way.

EDIT: And you'll find that I do not hold this opinion solely on Israel. I staunchly believe that it is the right and duty of every government to act in the interests of their citizens, as they understand it, to the exclusion of ALL other concerns to the best of their ability, and that anything else is a violation of their trust as the government.
 
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darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
At least you weren't targetting them!..

I dont care about Hamas, I dont care about Israel...I just care about the conditions of the war...

Israel committed too many war crimes in the last 10 days, breaking all the UN resolutions regarding wars, and causing the misery of an entire nation, and rage everywhere worldwide...

My question to you mate is what would you do if a nation, say Libya which on your border started firing rockets into your cities?
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
At least you weren't targetting them!..

I dont care about Hamas, I dont care about Israel...I just care about the conditions of the war...

Israel committed too many war crimes in the last 10 days, breaking all the UN resolutions regarding wars, and causing the misery of an entire nation, and rage everywhere worldwide...

So Hamas, an organization within its charter equates all the Jews to Zionists, believes that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is real, calls for the elimination of Israel, worked contrary to the PLO by engaging in suicide bombings targeting civilians for years, gains power resulting in Israel blockading the strip (strategically so considering Hamas level of unrestrained violence) not to mention the massive increase in rocket attacks and mortar shelling into Israel after they withdrew from the Gaza strip which has resulted in far more casualties then certain forum members state...........

words fail.

Name all the U.N. resolutions regarding war and how Israel broke them without looking them up.

edit: Also, last time I checked David Ben-Gurion is dead.
 
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