Israel attacks gaza strip

[England my lionheart]

This look like a copy of the plan that the Zionist used to get statehood. It work for them so the Arab aren’t as silly some like to paint them. I am glad that you can see their reasoning. I am sure that by now the learnt the lesson that got debilitated when they trusted the Bits and their empty promise that got them into the revolt against the Turks. As I said before this just go to show how useless an organization the UN is.

I agree the UN is mostly useless,i cannot see why you blame dear old Blighty when you read the history.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well, I'm not going to reply to everyone...​

I'm going to post a one big reply that contains a summery of conclusions drawn from earlier posts, and my personal comments:

General Facts:

1- Any country has the right to dream about conquering others lands, and it's totally legal to committ wars for that aim (Elessar's posts)

2- Any country has the right to defend its lands by whatever ways even if those ways were breaking the UN resolutions (All posts)


Facts about Israel:

1- The jewish state was established solely for a religious purpose, the right of its existance comes from its religious beliefs

2- Israel is the only state on the world established for holding a certain religious group together

3- The basic borders of Israel werent the real target of Israelian, as a matter of facts, they have no problem in expanding their lands (and according to David Ben-Gurion, this should be a strategy for ensuring power)

4- Israel did not committ terrorism against the Palestinian people

5- Israel wants peace, meanwhile, doesnt want the existance of a Palestinian state on 1967 borders

Facts about Hamas:

1- Hamas fire rockets with "high density" against Israelian targets (civilians or military)

2- Hamas were established to fight Israeli citizens

3- Hamas do not play politics, they only fire rockets and committ to suicide bombings

4- Hamas accordingly are not working for the best of its people (although studies showed that they are still the most favorable, even during the crisis over there)


Ok, now to cut the entire "terrorism" thing off, we all agree that both siders committ to targetting civilians. If Hamas are to be called "terrorists", then IDF are to be called "terrorists" as well, maybe even more...Lets just look at simple statistics:

The red is Palestinian children killed since 2000 till now, while the blue show that crossponding Israeli children killed.. (Dont know why is it too small!)

Also the red shows the amount of palestinians killed during the same period against the number of Isaelis killed​

This one shows the UN resolutions targetting Israel VS UN resolutions targetting Palestine (1955-1992)​

This one shows the demolitions of civilian homes since 1967 till now​

Illegal settelments (which Elessar still thinks those are legal, since they were taken by force!)​

Enough for the statistics for now..​

Accordingly, it's very obvious that the terrorism achieved by the IDF is much more effective and more "evil" compared to Hamas's..​

And if I were in Gaza, and had my children, parents, sisters and brothers, friends all killed, and having my home destroyed, and having my job lost, all I'd be thinking of is to take my revenge...I don't find it hard for me then to turn into a suicide bomber to let Israel drink from the same cup..​

People everywhere think those suicide bombers are robots...A suicide bomber has probably lost everything, and just wants to revenge, to fullfil his anger and rage..​

I find suicide bombing more justified (even when targetting civilians) than IDF acts..This doesnt absolutly mean I'm with it..​

If whats Elessar saying is believed by all people there, then it's simply war!
Because we won't accept a nation between us (arabs) that is ready to declare war whenever it needs to expand, and to find ways to make that legal!..​

For the current situation, ceasefire is the only solution for both camps, but with these facts, and with no changes in political perceptions from both sides, it's going to be war forever...​

Palestine would like to conquer Israel would 'nt they,

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Palestine would like to conquer Israel would 'nt they,

And that would be considered "legal" and no one has the right to refuse!!!
(According to Elessar)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ok, now to cut the entire "terrorism" thing off, we all agree that both siders committ to targetting civilians.

Still spewing lies ...

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Still spewing lies ...

Dear Jay, if that was a stupid insult to me, then I won't comment. If that was something related to the topic, then please let me know what is it that is "Still spewing lies"..thanks

 

[kai]

Then of course there's the possibility of Hamas stopping or sinking the ships and blaming it on Israel...

what a hundred of them? all covered by the worlds press( i think i am getting carried away)

 

[kai]

Well, I'm not going to reply to everyone...​

I'm going to post a one big reply that contains a summery of conclusions drawn from earlier posts, and my personal comments:

General Facts:

1- Any country has the right to dream about conquering others lands, and it's totally legal to committ wars for that aim (Elessar's posts)

2- Any country has the right to defend its lands by whatever ways even if those ways were breaking the UN resolutions (All posts)


Facts about Israel:

1- The jewish state was established solely for a religious purpose, the right of its existance comes from its religious beliefs

2- Israel is the only state on the world established for holding a certain religious group together

3- The basic borders of Israel werent the real target of Israelian, as a matter of facts, they have no problem in expanding their lands (and according to David Ben-Gurion, this should be a strategy for ensuring power)

4- Israel did not committ terrorism against the Palestinian people

5- Israel wants peace, meanwhile, doesnt want the existance of a Palestinian state on 1967 borders

Facts about Hamas:

1- Hamas fire rockets with "high density" against Israelian targets (civilians or military)

2- Hamas were established to fight Israeli citizens

3- Hamas do not play politics, they only fire rockets and committ to suicide bombings

4- Hamas accordingly are not working for the best of its people (although studies showed that they are still the most favorable, even during the crisis over there)


Ok, now to cut the entire "terrorism" thing off, we all agree that both siders committ to targetting civilians. If Hamas are to be called "terrorists", then IDF are to be called "terrorists" as well, maybe even more...Lets just look at simple statistics:

The red is Palestinian children killed since 2000 till now, while the blue show that crossponding Israeli children killed.. (Dont know why is it too small!)

Also the red shows the amount of palestinians killed during the same period against the number of Isaelis killed​

This one shows the UN resolutions targetting Israel VS UN resolutions targetting Palestine (1955-1992)​

This one shows the demolitions of civilian homes since 1967 till now​

Illegal settelments (which Elessar still thinks those are legal, since they were taken by force!)​

Enough for the statistics for now..​

Accordingly, it's very obvious that the terrorism achieved by the IDF is much more effective and more "evil" compared to Hamas's..​

And if I were in Gaza, and had my children, parents, sisters and brothers, friends all killed, and having my home destroyed, and having my job lost, all I'd be thinking of is to take my revenge...I don't find it hard for me then to turn into a suicide bomber to let Israel drink from the same cup..​

People everywhere think those suicide bombers are robots...A suicide bomber has probably lost everything, and just wants to revenge, to fullfil his anger and rage..​

I find suicide bombing more justified (even when targetting civilians) than IDF acts..This doesnt absolutly mean I'm with it..​

If whats Elessar saying is believed by all people there, then it's simply war!
Because we won't accept a nation between us (arabs) that is ready to declare war whenever it needs to expand, and to find ways to make that legal!..​

For the current situation, ceasefire is the only solution for both camps, but with these facts, and with no changes in political perceptions from both sides, it's going to be war forever...​

wow a lot of work went into that post Einstein, heres my comment:


all that would be left to the history books if hamas would renounce violence, and use all its recources to form a viable Palestinian state, answer me this and this is a question that all Arabs/Muslims should be asking themselves why arnt they doing that? no excuses please just why arnt they doing that

 

[EiNsTeiN]

wow a lot of work went into that post Einstein

Not as much as you think, but thanks anyways..

all that would be left to the history books if hamas would renounce violence, and use all its recources to form a viable Palestinian state, answer me this and this is a question that all Arabs/Muslims should be asking themselves why arnt they doing that? no excuses please just why arnt they doing that

Did they get a chance?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Btw, this whole big post I sent was only to point out the only reasonable conclusions out of your posts, guys..Which means, I dont neccesairly support all the ideas in there..
So, whatever you find in my post is already concluded from some other posts somewhere

 

[Caladan]

Facts about Israel:

1- The jewish state was established solely for a religious purpose, the right of its existance comes from its religious beliefs

2- Israel is the only state on the world established for holding a certain religious group together

3- The basic borders of Israel werent the real target of Israelian, as a matter of facts, they have no problem in expanding their lands (and according to David Ben-Gurion, this should be a strategy for ensuring power)

as the other two facts are of the grey area I'll adress the first 3.

1. Israel was founded out of a revivalism of Zionism which at its core is a Secular movement, the creation of Israel did not come from religiousf beliefs, but out of practical need for a home land to the Jewish people.

2.While Israel is a state with an ethnic (multi cultured) Jewish nature (and majority), it offered freedom of religion from its beginning. the most holy sites for Christianity and Islam in Israel are not under Jewish hands. after Israel gained control of east Jerusalem in 67 it handed control of the Al Aqsa compound to Islamic hands, (keep in mind that the temple mount in the same area is considered the holiest site in Jewish tradition and religion)

3. Israel accepted the UN partition plan, the expansion of Israel's territory was the result of multiple Arab nations campaign against the newly born state.

Lets just look at simple statistics:

nothing about these statistics is simple, as a many of them simply have no connection to the issue at hand:
-Israel is a modern state with a modern army, by default it is going to suffer a substantial smaller loss of life in this armed struggle. this by itself should be a stimulate for a non violence solutions from the Palestinian factions.
-What Palestinian regular army can march into Israel the same way Israel is demolishing the homes of terrorists? again unrealistic statistic and comparison, Israel is the one who is in control and is the only one capable of executing such an act (note, I am not talking about the justification or pro and cons of this method)
-Settlements building, again, only Israel has the option of building settlments. (again not talking about the justifications of this issue)


Israel is a sovereign nation, Palestine is not. it has no ability to build settlements, to demolish homes or to match the fire power of a regular army. therefore these statistics are purely demagogic.

after making these points, I will add that Israel as the stronger side of this conflict should have been more resourceful in devising a political solution rather than executing its military might, as someone who has served in the Second Intifada I know the problematic asymmetric nature of the warfare at hand, militants fire at the soldiers from densely populated areas. Israel could gain much more if it succeeds on the political level instead of executing a military solution to the ongoing rockets problem. that is a hard thing to admit for political leaders who need to show assertiveness in solving this kind of threat, but there it is.
more cooporation from Arab governments who need to favor normalization in the region should have taken place, when nations which have no diplomatic relations with Israel in the region use the Palestinians as a card on the expense of the Palestinians themselves they are downplaying the stability of the entire region, obviously the leaders of such nation are going to martyr the Palestinians and distract the masses in their nations from their real life problems with passionate slogans about Israel and the Palestinians. the big losers, as always, are the Palestinians.

 

[kai]

This look like a copy of the plan that the Zionist used to get statehood. It work for them so the Arab aren’t as silly some like to paint them. I am glad that you can see their reasoning. I am sure that by now the learnt the lesson that got debilitated when they trusted the Bits and their empty promise that got them into the revolt against the Turks. As I said before this just go to show how useless an organization the UN is.

here you go emeliano one last attempt to get you to understand what its all about, dont forget that the Arabs revolted against Ottoman rule in order to gain independence from Ottoman Turkey--hence all the Arab countries that are now extant.

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kai]

Not as much as you think, but thanks anyways..


Did they get a chance?

Yes, yes, Yes, in 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza , why have they squandered such an opportunity, all the time and effort that they put into their almost rabid anti Israeli policy could have been put into 4 years of peaceful building of a Palestinian state.why haven't they done that?



On August 15, 2005, scenes of delight took place across the Arab world, following the long-ingrained suspicion that the disengagement would not take place.


Israel's unilateral disengagement plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EiNsTeiN]

as the other two facts are of the grey area I'll adress the first 3.

1. Israel was founded out of a revivalism of Zionism which at its core is a Secular movement, the creation of Israel did not come from religiousf beliefs, but out of practical need for a home land to the Jewish people.

2.While Israel is a state with an ethnic (multi cultured) Jewish nature (and majority), it offered freedom of religion from its beginning. the most holy sites for Christianity and Islam in Israel are not under Jewish hands. after Israel gained control of east Jerusalem in 67 it handed control of the Al Aqsa compound to Islamic hands, (keep in mind that the temple mount in the same area is considered the holiest site in Jewish tradition and religion)

3. Israel accepted the UN partition plan, the expansion of Israel's territory was the result of multiple Arab nations campaign against the newly born state.
nothing about these statistics is simple, as a many of them simply have no connection to the issue at hand:
-Israel is a modern state with a modern army, by default it is going to suffer a substantial smaller loss of life in this armed struggle. this by itself should be a stimulate for a non violence solutions from the Palestinian factions.
-What Palestinian regular army can march into Israel the same way Israel is demolishing the homes of terrorists? again unrealistic statistic and comparison, Israel is the one who is in control and is the only one capable of executing such an act (note, I am not talking about the justification or pro and cons of this method)
-Settlements building, again, only Israel has the option of building settlments. (again not talking about the justifications of this issue)


Israel is a sovereign nation, Palestine is not. it has no ability to build settlements, to demolish homes or to match the fire power of a regular army. therefore these statistics are purely demagogic.

after making these points, I will add that Israel as the stronger side of this conflict should have been more resourceful in devising a political solution rather than executing its military might, as someone who has served in the Second Intifada I know the problematic asymmetric nature of the warfare at hand, militants fire at the soldiers from densely populated areas. Israel could gain much more if it succeeds on the political level instead of executing a military solution to the ongoing rockets problem. that is a hard thing to admit for political leaders who need to show assertiveness in solving this kind of threat, but there it is.
more coopoeration from Arab goverments who need to favor normalization in the region should have taken place, when nations which have no diplomatic relations with Israel in the region use the Palestinians as a card on the expense of the Palestinians themselves are downplaying the stability of the entire region, obviously the leaders of such nation are going to martyr the Palestinians and distract the masses in their nations from their real life problems with passionate slogans about Israel and the Palestinians. the big losers, as always, are the Palestinians.

Frubals...

Though I don't understand how Israel being the strongest part of the conflict justifies those acts!..Demolishing civilians houses is not moral, it's not a matter of who is strong and who is not..

Regarding the first three points,

1- I don't believe thats the only reason, simply, because all early statments issued regarding the establishment of Israel made it clear that the jewish people are returning to thier "home land", which makes the objective quite clear.

2- Also if the the land was controlled by Arabs, jews would have enjoyed political stability and freedom for expressing their religious rituals..

3- Doesnt justify or gauruntee anything...

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Yes, yes, Yes, in 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza , why have they squandered such an opportunity, all the time and effort that they put into there almost rabid anti Israeli policy could have been put into 4 years of peaceful building of a palestinian state.why havnt they done that?

Well, Hamas has committed lots of political mistakes indeed, but on the other side, Israel doesn't respect the requirments of Hamas and other Arabs for establishing a Palestinian state according to 1967 borders and others regarding the refugees..Hamas obviously won't recognize Israel unless those requirments are fullfiled by the Israelian camp. And as long as Israel is not fulfilling them, Hamas will keep on not recognizing Israel, and hence treated as a terrorist organization rather than an elected government.

 

[kai]

Well, Hamas has committed lots of political mistakes indeed, but on the other side, Israel doesn't respect the requirments of Hamas and other Arabs for establishing a Palestinian state according to 1967 borders and others regarding the refugees..Hamas obviously won't recognize Israel unless those requirments are fullfiled by the Israelian camp. And as long as Israel is not fulfilling them, Hamas will keep on not recognizing Israel, and hence treated as a terrorist organization rather than an elected government.

they could have still made peaceful demands and protests and no one would have died, and Gaza and west bank would be Palestinian and apart from Jerusalem that would be pre 1967 wouldn't it? and peaceful negotiations could have taken place concerning Jerusalem. Once Hamas denounced violence and stopped calling for destruction of Israel its no longer a terrorist organization in anyones book.

There is so much to gain from peaceful coexistence

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

all that would be left to the history books if hamas would renounce violence, and use all its recources to form a viable Palestinian state, ...

Did they get a chance?

< this would be embarrassing if it weren't so typical >

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, Hamas has committed lots of political mistakes indeed, but on the other side, Israel doesn't respect the requirments of Hamas and other Arabs for establishing a Palestinian state according to 1967 borders and others regarding the refugees ...

Thankfully!

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Forgot to add that within the context of Elessar's claims, lands occupied by Israel since 1967 are not legal..

Thankfully!

Excuse me?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Israel refuses to negotiate for an establishment of a Palestinian state according to UN resolutions...What do you expect Palestine to negotiate for then?

 

[Breathe]

Israel refuses to negotiate for an establishment of a Palestinian state according to UN resolutions...What do you expect Palestine to negotiate for then?

But Israel -agreed- to the 1967 plan. The Arabs didn't.