Israel attacks gaza strip

[EiNsTeiN]

can anyone honestly with all their heart tell me that Hamas have the wishes of the Palestinian people as their first priority? Actually, Hamas AND the Palestinian people have wishes for "Palestine" as their first priority.

isnt it the case that if Hamas was to lay down its arms and seak a political solution to this decades old unwinable war that peace would prevail that there would be massive investment in palestine and that the Palestinian people would benefit a thousand fold. Again, nothing guaruntees that if Hamas laid down its arms Israel is gonna leave it alone..As TashaN stated, Israel is a threat to the Palestinians through other ways like taking illegal lands and turning them into settelments!

just what is the priority of Hamas and Arabs in general ?a viable Palestinian state which has been at their fingertips for sometime now or war?
Well, a viable palestinian state is a priority indeed, but also ensuring the balance of power in the region is another priority.

please dont insult our intelligence by saying that Hamas is protecting the Palestinians. Come on it all just doesnt add up.
And dont also insult our intelligence by saying that Israel is protecting its civilians!

The major stumbling block for peace is the Hamas charter,how can you deal with an organisation that is bent on your destruction,they must stop the Rockets which was a stupid but calculated thing to do in the first place and show the world they can convey themselves as a country should which is in the best interest of the People.

It's just unfair to keep asking guaruntees from Hamas, and treating Israel as the innocent side out there..

Israel keeps developing technologies to aquire total destruction weopons like nuks and other stuff...Which significantly messes up with the balance of power in the region..

Can you please tell me how is Israel intending to protect its citizens with those weopons?!

Israel too must show some peacful intentions regarding the region..

 

[Poisonshady313]

Israel too must show some peacful intentions regarding the region..

All Israel does is show peaceful intentions... and for its trouble, Israel gets 7000 Qassam rockets up its ***.


Tell me... how many Arab countries would evacuate any region that used to be heavily populated by Jews... in order to make room for Jews who were displaced from there?

My guess: None. No Arab nation would do anything for the Jews like Israel did for Palestinians when they completely withdrew from Gaza.

How many Jews are part of the government in Jordan? Syria? Lebanon?

How many Arabs/Muslims are part of the Knesset? (There have been Arab members of the Knesset since the very first Knesset elections. In the past, there have been 47 Arab members... today, there are 12, one of which is Currently Deputy Knesset speaker.)


Israel has been more than fair... more than tolerant... more than willing to sacrifice, compromise... and every time, the palestinian leadership spits in their face.... shoots rockets at them... blows up buses and pizza shops, fakes videos for the news to make it look like Israel was attacking them when indeed Palestinians were firing at Palestinians...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's just unfair to keep asking guaruntees from Hamas, and treating Israel as the innocent side out there.

Is it unfair to demand the repudiation of terrorism and the operational goal of the eradication of Israel?

Israel keeps developing technologies to aquire total destruction weopons like nuks and other stuff...Which significantly messes up with the balance of power in the region..

Can you please tell me how is Israel intending to protect its citizens with those weopons?!

Look at a map. Now think back to 1948 and 1967 ...

Israel too must show some peacful intentions regarding the region..

It has, repeatedly.

Imagine a world unified and unambiguous in its rejection of terrorism, an Arab Brotherhood and Al Qaeda militantly denounced by the local population, and a Gaza firmly in the hands of the PLO, and it's easy to imagine a robust environment in which the Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians, and Israelis could thrive.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Two interesting articles from ynetnews ...

1. New initiative calls for PA control over Gaza-Egypt border
   
   UK's London Times reports of new diplomatic plan meant to help Palestinian Authority regain control of Gaza, Rafah crossing. Plan also proposes international force deploys at Kerem Shalom crossing
   
   A new initiative meant to create a new foothold in Gaza for the Palestinian Authority and bring in international monitors, has apparently been drawn up by diplomats on Friday, as the UN ceasefire call was dismissed by both sides.
   
   According to a Saturday report in the UK's London Times, the plan would allow for the PA, led by the secular Fatah faction, to reclaim the territory; 18 months after it was expelled by the Islamist Hamas.
   
   Diplomats are considering taking a triangle at the southern end of Gaza, including the Rafah crossing leading into Egypt and the Kerem Shalom crossing leading into Israel, to be policed by Turkish and French military monitors, who would be tasked with thwarting arms smuggling into the Gaza Strip.
   
   The zone would nominally be controlled by the PA, which is the internationally recognized Government. Such a plan would allow the Gaza crossings to reopen for the first time since Hamas seized power in Gaza in June 2007.
   
2. Abbas: Israel must accept truce initiative
   
   Palestinian, Egyptian presidents, German foreign minister meet in Cairo in yet another attempt to end Gaza fighting. Abbas urges Israel to agree to armistice; asks for international force to be deployed in Gaza
   
   Diplomatic efforts to end the fighting in the Gaza Strip were underway in Cairo Saturday, as German Foreign Minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, met with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to discuss the Egypt-sponsored initiative to end the Gaza conflict.
   
   Separately, Hamas officials are slated to meet with Egyptian officials as well.

A bit of image development is going on here. Note that Abbas does not insist that "Hamas must accept truce initiative."

 

[kai]

Originally Posted by EiNsTeiN
Actually, Hamas AND the Palestinian people have wishes for "Palestine" as their first priority.


yes but isnt that "Palestine" including the land which is now Israel?


Again, nothing guaruntees that if Hamas laid down its arms Israel is gonna leave it alone..As TashaN stated, Israel is a threat to the Palestinians through other ways like taking illegal lands and turning them into settelments!

But not in Gaza

Well, a viable palestinian state is a priority indeed, but also ensuring the balance of power in the region is another priority.

and what is the desirable balance of power and is that second priority Hamas's?

And dont also insult our intelligence by saying that Israel is protecting its civilians!

I havent !,i think its a purely offensive in nature with the intent of providing a deterant to Hamas and anyone else who wishes to attack Israel and due to a state of war existing between Israel and Hamas.

 

[kai]

and here
AFP: Egypt bids to square conflicting Gaza truce demands

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

and here
AFP: Egypt bids to square conflicting Gaza truce demands

Noteworthy is ...

Solving the border issue has emerged as crucial to ending Israel's onslaught on the Gaza Strip which is now in its third week and has killed more than 800 Palestinians.

Under a 2005 deal, Egypt's Rafah crossing with Gaza, the only one to bypass Israel, can only be opened to normal traffic if European Union observers and Palestinian Authority forces are at the border.

But Hamas bloodily ousted forces loyal to Abbas from the Gaza Strip in June 2007 and the EU monitors subsequently left, making it impossible legally to keep the border open.

Several EU countries have offered to send troops to the border as part of an eventual monitoring mission but an EU diplomat who requested anonymity told AFP that "Egypt will never accept foreign forces on its side of the border."​

Under that bloodily established Hamas control it has managed to double the range of the missles it lobs at arbitrary civilian targets in Israel.

 

[Caladan]

What the heck?!! :areyoucra Faisal, what are you saying?!!

No one denies that the Arab nations are *a bit* uncomfortable with the Iranian power projection. and I dont believe you are that naive or uninformed concerning the discourse in Arab and middle eastern politics.


Destruction of Iran's nuclear program good, if done by Israel, even better: Kuwaiti analyst


Arab States, Wary of Iran, Add to Their Arsenals but Still Lean on the U.S.

 

[emiliano]

How the entity acquired control is irrelevant in any and all cases. Legitimacy is a lie. There is only actuality. The actuality is, that Israel has all the properties of a state, and is thus a state. "Palestine" does not have all the properties of a state, and is thus, not a state. Whether one side is more "in the moral right" than the other is irrelevant for the purposes of politics. A state exists has the properties of a state. Claiming to be a state is irrelevant.

Western Sahara is not a state, it does not have the properties of a state, despite its claim to be a state and international recognition thereof. Palestine is not a state, it does not have the properties of a state, despite its claim to be a state and international recognition thereof. Taiwan is a state, it has the properties of a state, despite its claim to NOT be a state and international nonrecognition thereof. Somaliland is a state, it has the properties of a state, and thus proves its claims to be a state, despite international nonrecognition thereof. Somalia is not a state, it does not have the properties of a state, despite its claim to be a state and international recognition thereof.

I could go on, but you get the picture. A "state" is a state whether or not it claims to be, and a "nonstate" is not a state, whether or not it claims to be. "Legitimacy" is a lie. For any state to fail to recognize or act in accord with the existance of another state is ignorance, at best, and delusional, at worst. Did UN recognizing the Republic of China in Taiwan as the "one true China" from 1945-1975 make the People's Republic of China a nonstate? Of course not! Has the UN recognizing the People's Republic of China as the "one true China" from 1975-present made the Republic of China in Taiwan a nonstate? Of course not!

I hate the cliche, but, in the simplest of terms, "might makes right". Existence creates true legitimacy.

Let question this one, what came before the recognition of all this states that you cited? Were they legitimated states before recognition? How did they get recognised as states, we have seen more than enough history here about how was the Zionist state established and who supported them, why then is it that the Palestinian can’t do the same, straggle for statehood and seek the support of an influential natation such Russia to achieve it? Remember that an international tribunal will not propose violence as means of resolving any impasse in the negotiations, just good cause and arguments to demonstrate legitimacy and ownership.

 

[kai]

emeliano does you generosity extend to Aboriginals in who's country you are sat in. you seem to be a bastion of freedom for the oppressed why don't you pack up and leave that epitome of colonialism and leave it to the real Australians. or are you cherry picking your sentiments only for the Palestinians.

 

[.lava]

emeliano does you generosity extend to Aboriginals in whos country you are sat in.

is this off sight or foul?

.

 

[kai]

is this off sight or foul?

.

if i am little curt than excuse me i have had a long day and emeliano is i am sure a fine fellow, only those who live in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones. do you think i have gone to far? i am always ready and willing to admit my mistakes? :yes:

 

[.lava]

if i am little curt than excuse me i have had a long day and emeliano is i am sure a fine fellow, only those who live in glass houses really shouldnt throw stones. do you think i have gone to far? i am always ready and willing to admit my mistakes? :yes:

reminding unrelated issues can be distractive, that's all

.

 

[kai]

reminding unrelated issues can be distractive, that's all

.

well there is a slight relation in the fact that emeliano constantly asks for justification of Israels status as a state , when he lives in a young and modern state himself. but you are right Lava i digress, back to the nightmare at hand eh.

 

[England my lionheart]

It's just unfair to keep asking guaruntees from Hamas, and treating Israel as the innocent side out there..

Israel keeps developing technologies to aquire total destruction weopons like nuks and other stuff...Which significantly messes up with the balance of power in the region..

Can you please tell me how is Israel intending to protect its citizens with those weopons?!

Israel too must show some peacful intentions regarding the region..

Apart from the settlers i have to disagree,this is surely not about a balance of power but what is good for your people,Israel would be completely mad to use a Nuke and has no intention of using one,apart from anything else they would blow themselves off the map.
The latest bad news is the Israelis are going to escalate the operation and have been dropping leaflets to warn whats comming,these are very worrying times.

 

[TashaN]

See, here's another problem we have - a language barrier. I had a book once - Among the Righteous: Lost Stories from the Holocaust's Long Reach into Arab Lands by Robert Satloff. While, primarily, it is about exactly what the title says, the stories of Sephardi Jews arrested and annihilated in the Holocaust (often forgotten by history due to the much larger Ashkenazi deathcount), and the Arabs who saved thousands of Jewish lives during that dark time.

In a tangent, though, during the book, Satloff (a Jewish-American neoconservative, who is one of the preeminant American scholars on the Arab World) speaks about a friend of his, an Egyptian Muslim (I cannot remember the name, even if he told it), who said, "It is not Israel or the Jews I am against, it's Zionists". He then goes into the absurdity of this statement in English. A "zionist" in normal English simply means someone who favors a Jewish homeland in the Land of Israel, and that's all it means to anyone who speaks English natively. A "zionist" in Arabic, however, if I remember correctly, means exactly what you intend it to mean - an anti-Arab or anti-Muslim bigot who sees European-Jewish culture as better than Middle Eastern.

The latter certainly does exist, and they do have power and influence in Israel (though not absolute power or overwhelming influence). But, in English, they're not called "zionists", they're called "bigots" and "racists", at least in the English-speaking Jewish-American community, or, in nicer terms, "Eurocentrists". And these are as denounced in the Jewish-American community as any Israeli is - the problem comes, therefore, when you say "I'm anti-zionist", meaning the Arabic sense of racism, and it feels like an attack to American Jews, most of them zionists in the English sense, of simple support for a Jewish homeland in Israel.

I do appreciate your explanation and i'll certainly keep it in mind when i discuss this issue in the future.

I'm in a hurry now and i'll come back here to post when i can, but for now, i would like you to read these threads first.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/68535-judaism-against-state-israel.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...port-zionism-decline-among-american-jews.html

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I don't think I'd be able to participate effectively for the next few days...I'm doing horrible in my final exams cuz of RF...Will have to cut it off a bit..

Thanks for understanding..

 

[Breathe]

I don't think I'd be able to participate effectively for the next few days...I'm doing horrible in my final exams cuz of RF...Will have to cut it off a bit..

Thanks for understanding..

Oh man, good luck!

 

[DallasApple]

I don't think I'd be able to participate effectively for the next few days...I'm doing horrible in my final exams cuz of RF...Will have to cut it off a bit..

Thanks for understanding..

Hit the books! And good luck to you..

Love

Dallas

 

[England my lionheart]

I don't think I'd be able to participate effectively for the next few days...I'm doing horrible in my final exams cuz of RF...Will have to cut it off a bit..

Thanks for understanding..

Good luck