Israel charging money to demolsih Bedouin homes

[Alceste]

Sorry if i don't join you in blinkering my interest in the plight of the Bedouin solely to Israel.

Its a fairly new subject to me so i have endeavoured to look into exactly what and who are the Bedouin .

I have already said Israel can and should do more for these people. I have no idea if the Israeli counterpoint is legitimate or not, and i dont justify anything by including their treatment in say Lebanon,or Kuwait i am just putting it into the debate, and surely if they are all doing bad then they are all doing bad --no?

Tell me what you know of these people?how these Bedouin are not Palestinian! what's the reason they are stateless in many countries? Whats their status in Sinai? It puzzles me how many Arabs see the Bedouin lifestyle as something they share and take part in if only part time but somehow they seem separate? or shall i make another thread about the Bedouin and leave you to it?

In fairness, this IS a thread on Israel's policy toward the Bedouin. Even if you had brought any facts to the table relating to the Bedouin's treatment elsewhere (which you haven't) it would not be relevant to a discussion of Israel's behavior, just as Brazil's worse attitude to their aboriginal population does not excuse Canada's poor attitude to theirs. A policy can be judged right or wrong, legal or illegal, on its face without making such comparisons.

 

[Tamar]

I wonder what would happen in America if a group of people living in a town dates hundreds of years back were inexplicably regarded as squatters, cut off from basic public services, herded into poverty stricken areas, and watched as their cultural herritage was paved for Jewish "settlements" payed for by public funds, all the while being charged for the demolition costs while a group of racists ran amok vandalizing and stealing their few remaining possessions and cheering at their dispossestion.

Gives you a realistic scale of the "only democracy in the Middle East". Such a backward bigoted practice is reminiscent of the dispossession of Native Americans.

It did happen in America. The Indians were here first and had been here for 1000's of years and the Europeans came and settled this land and the Native populations found themselves on reservations and lost all their native lands and rights.

Unfortunately this has happened since the dawn of history. In all fairness the migration of the Jews back to their ancient homeland of which they had been exiled is not the same. The Jews in the middle east have a long history. The Jews of the middle east were expelled from their homes with the rise of Arab nationalism.

Not all see themselves as victims. The Druise joined with Israel and now live in peace and prosperity. They join the IDF and are full Israeli citizens. The Christian populations stayed also. Even Palestinians chose to stay and they are citizens. In fact all the neighboring Arab countries have treated the Palestinians in a much more ruthless manner. The land of Jordon which was Palestine became Jordan and even though the population their is majority Palestinian their citizenship has been revoked.

So why are the Palestinians not angry at the rulers of Jordon? Why are the Palestinians not angry at all the arab nations who force them to live in refugee camps?

 

[Alceste]

It did happen in America. The Indians were here first and had been here for 1000's of years and the Europeans came and settled this land and the Native populations found themselves on reservations and lost all their native lands and rights.

Unfortunately this has happened since the dawn of history. In all fairness the migration of the Jews back to their ancient homeland of which they had been exiled is not the same. The Jews in the middle east have a long history. The Jews of the middle east were expelled from their homes with the rise of Arab nationalism.

Not all see themselves as victims. The Druise joined with Israel and now live in peace and prosperity. They join the IDF and are full Israeli citizens. The Christian populations stayed also. Even Palestinians chose to stay and they are citizens. In fact all the neighboring Arab countries have treated the Palestinians in a much more ruthless manner. The land of Jordon which was Palestine became Jordan and even though the population their is majority Palestinian their citizenship has been revoked.

So why are the Palestinians not angry at the rulers of Jordon? Why are the Palestinians not angry at all the arab nations who force them to live in refugee camps?

Native people have not lost all of their land and rights. Israel's activities in Palestine do not compare to the current state of aboriginal affairs in the new world.

 

[kai]

In fairness, this IS a thread on Israel's policy toward the Bedouin. Even if you had brought any facts to the table relating to the Bedouin's treatment elsewhere (which you haven't) it would not be relevant to a discussion of Israel's behavior, just as Brazil's worse attitude to their aboriginal population does not excuse Canada's poor attitude to theirs. A policy can be judged right or wrong, legal or illegal, on its face without making such comparisons.

It was not my intention to justify Israels actions. It was my intention though to bring to light the history of the particular action in the OP. and it tweaked my curiosity on who the Bedouin are. Which is why i have started my own thread and bowed out of this one.

 

[England my lionheart]

BBC News - Israel sues Bedouin for $500,000 in eviction costs
The level of hypocrisy

Is it only a big deal because it concerns Israel ,the UK has done the same thing,i guess many countries have done the same thing even to their own people:

By: Amnesty International
Washington, D.C. August 23, 2011 – Egyptian authorities and political parties must rapidly consider the rights of the country's 12 million slum-dwellers if they are to meet the demands for social justice and human dignity championed during the "January 25 Revolution," Amnesty International said today in a new report.

We are not dirt: Forced evictions in Egypt's informal settlements released ahead of the country's first elections since the fall of former President Mubarak, documents cases of forced evictions affecting hundreds of families in the country's vast slums. The report describes how people are forcibly evicted from so-called "unsafe areas" where residents' lives or health are said to be at risk.

"People living in Egypt's slums must be given a say in finding solutions to their dire housing conditions, but the authorities are failing to respect their human rights," said Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK. "And when slum residents dare to object, they face unlawful forced evictions and arbitrary arrest under repressive laws."

 

[Alceste]

Is it only a big deal because it concerns Israel ,the UK has done the same thing,i guess many countries have done the same thing even to their own people:

By: Amnesty International
Washington, D.C. August 23, 2011 – Egyptian authorities and political parties must rapidly consider the rights of the country's 12 million slum-dwellers if they are to meet the demands for social justice and human dignity championed during the "January 25 Revolution," Amnesty International said today in a new report.

We are not dirt: Forced evictions in Egypt's informal settlements released ahead of the country's first elections since the fall of former President Mubarak, documents cases of forced evictions affecting hundreds of families in the country's vast slums. The report describes how people are forcibly evicted from so-called "unsafe areas" where residents' lives or health are said to be at risk.

"People living in Egypt's slums must be given a say in finding solutions to their dire housing conditions, but the authorities are failing to respect their human rights," said Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK. "And when slum residents dare to object, they face unlawful forced evictions and arbitrary arrest under repressive laws."

Do you have some particular objection to criticizing human rights violations when they occur in Israel, as opposed to any other country?

You know, it is possible to be opposed to all violations of international human rights law, wherever they occur. You don't have to give anybody a free pass, and you don't have to avoid discussing violations in countries you're fond of in favour of discussing only violations in countries you despise.

 

[England my lionheart]

Do you have some particular objection to criticizing human rights violations when they occur in Israel, as opposed to any other country?

None at all

You know, it is possible to be opposed to all violations of international human rights law, wherever they occur. You don't have to give anybody a free pass, and you don't have to avoid discussing violations in countries you're fond of in favour of discussing only violations in countries you despise.

Of course not,i'm very fond of the UK and criticise it and i agree that no matter who violates Human rights should be openly criticised and exposed but its obvious that any violation by Israel is much worse than any other according to some.

 

[Shermana]

Do you have some particular objection to criticizing human rights violations when they occur in Israel, as opposed to any other country?

You know, it is possible to be opposed to all violations of international human rights law, wherever they occur. You don't have to give anybody a free pass, and you don't have to avoid discussing violations in countries you're fond of in favour of discussing only violations in countries you despise.

I have a problem when people ignore other countries and focus exclusively on Israel and ignore certain key facts like the actual legalities. You gotta wonder what a person's objective is when they couldn't give two rat's behinds less about anywhere else.

And even then, how exactly is Israel having a "Human Rights" situation to begin with? Who defines it, and by what criteria exactly, and why is Israel in the wrong?

If there was a Native American who was living in an illegal building in non-reservation land, and the authorities removed him and gave him a fine, you'd call that a Human rights violation? What about a deportation of an illegal Mexican in Texas, which used to be part of Mexico? Is that a rights violation?

 

[England my lionheart]

Israel is the legal owner of that land,it doesn't matter whether the land was historically the Bedouins home or not,as i said before the UK has and does the same thing,without building permission a building inspector can and do demolish illegal buildings as i suspect is the case for other countries too.

 

[England my lionheart]

Just a footnate - try looking up --bedouin aide.
What you will find is that isreal will not leave the red cross or any other "humanitarian group" give the chilren medicsal aide or food!
I was very disturbed at a group of people who fails to see gods good works something to support!

Does a supposed God really have anything to do with it,after all we are dealing with Human law here with a very Human issue.

 

[Shermana]

Native people have not lost all of their land and rights. Israel's activities in Palestine do not compare to the current state of aboriginal affairs in the new world.

Yes, almost all American Indians have extremely good lives in America, the concept of the "Reservation" is just like Restaraunt Reservations, the Indians chose the best spots to live on and made reservations for them! Australian Aboriginals have never had their children taken from them and their lands exproprirated, and Brazilian natives live like Kings. The Chiapas natives in Mexico hold feasts in honor of the Mexican government. Kurds in Turkey have never been classified as criminals for speaking their native language.

Even the treatment of Korean descendents of slaves in Japan is a model for Western countries.

 

[Tamar]

Native people have not lost all of their land and rights. Israel's activities in Palestine do not compare to the current state of aboriginal affairs in the new world.

Surely you jest..... The history of the white European settlers and the native population was nothing more then genocide and loss of land.

Talk about loss of land and rights, every issue the native Americans have to this day is because of how the Europeans treated them.

Today they can freely leave the reservation, but every right they have is not because of the kindness of the white man.

 

[elmarna]

American native american reservation are governed by their own peoples. It is a seperate entity from USA government able to interfer. They are allowed aide. They are free to live as they have before white men come. I regularly send things to the theservation through the Lililinape tribe. We have paid for regular health care in a program of sendung doctors.
Dispite what people think most reservations are happy as long as people respect their laws and ways.
We americans are supportive of their right to live in their ways and have no intention to see it lost.
I guess that is why I am having a hard time with this subject matter!

 

[Alceste]

I have a problem when people ignore other countries and focus exclusively on Israel and ignore certain key facts like the actual legalities. You gotta wonder what a person's objective is when they couldn't give two rat's behinds less about anywhere else.

And even then, how exactly is Israel having a "Human Rights" situation to begin with? Who defines it, and by what criteria exactly, and why is Israel in the wrong?

If there was a Native American who was living in an illegal building in non-reservation land, and the authorities removed him and gave him a fine, you'd call that a Human rights violation? What about a deportation of an illegal Mexican in Texas, which used to be part of Mexico? Is that a rights violation?

Um - this is a thread about Israel. If you want start a thread to talk about human rights violations other countries, nobody is stopping you.

I only wish that Israel's loyal fan-boys would learn that pointing fingers outside its borders to deflect criticism is not a persuasive argument for allowing Israel to continue to violate international human rights law.

 

[Shermana]

Um - this is a thread about Israel. If you want start a thread to talk about human rights violations other countries, nobody is stopping you.

I only wish that Israel's loyal fan-boys would learn that pointing fingers outside its borders to deflect criticism is not a persuasive argument for allowing Israel to continue to violate international human rights law.

What international human rights Laws exactly? Whose laws? Which ones? Is Israel completely to blame? If so, by what standard? The deflection is simply comparing one situation to another in terms of its legalities and past.

 

[Alceste]

What international human rights Laws exactly? Whose laws? Which ones? Is Israel completely to blame? If so, by what standard? The deflection is simply comparing one situation to another in terms of its legalities and past.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, of course Israel is completely to blame. Do you see any other government forcibly evicting Bedouins from the Negev? By the standards of basic human decency and international treaties Israel has ratified, it is wrong to bulldoze the villages of an ethnic minority and forcibly relocate them to make way for ranchers of your preferred ethnicity.

By what measure have you determined Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Negev is legal?

 

[Shermana]

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, of course Israel is completely to blame. Do you see any other government forcibly evicting Bedouins from the Negev? By the standards of basic human decency and international treaties Israel has ratified, it is wrong to bulldoze the villages of an ethnic minority and forcibly relocate them to make way for ranchers of your preferred ethnicity.

By what measure have you determined Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Negev is legal?

Right, and Israel just bulldozes for no reason without regard to building permits or regulations.

And again, whether you say I'm deflecting or not, the fact YOU bring up "any other government" shows a clear case of ignorance of any other country such as Turkey or Iran or Sudan. I'd say Egypt, but you said "What other countries kicks them out of the Negev"...its kind of hard for other countries to kick them out of Israel. That's like saying "Do you see any other countries arresting illegal Mexicans in Texas"?

And again, since you bring up other countries, shall I ask if all other countries obey these international laws you speak of? Why don't you point out the EXACT regulations that you feel Israel is violating and why. Not just the overall links.

 

[Tamar]

American native american reservation are governed by their own peoples. It is a seperate entity from USA government able to interfer. They are allowed aide. They are free to live as they have before white men come. I regularly send things to the theservation through the Lililinape tribe. We have paid for regular health care in a program of sendung doctors.
Dispite what people think most reservations are happy as long as people respect their laws and ways.
We americans are supportive of their right to live in their ways and have no intention to see it lost.
I guess that is why I am having a hard time with this subject matter!

The op isn't about native americans and I originally answered a question when asked what would the USA do if it had its people subjugated by another and I simply said it happened here.

The United States was Indian land full of native Americans. They neither asked or wanted to give up their land and be moved to reservations. It was taken pure and simple.

Native Americans may be self governing now but the harm the European settlement of this continent to them was horrific, and genocide. History will bear that out.

But for now we ought to stick with the op.

 

[kai]

Ok speaking as a member and not a mod, Alceste and Bismillah are right. This thread is about a particular ongoing situation in Israel and i think we should avoid discussing other issues in other countries. Its easy to digress and i myself am guilty in steering the discussion to the Bedouin in general. so lets stay on topic.

 

[Alceste]

Ok speaking as a member and not a mod, Alceste and Bismillah are right. This thread is about a particular ongoing situation in Israel and i think we should avoid discussing other issues in other countries. Its easy to digress and i myself am guilty in steering the discussion to the Bedouin in general. so lets stay on topic.

Thanks, kai. Human rights violations are a slippery enough topic without the conversation being allowed to become a "who is worse than whom" competition.

I do think Israel's policy, which appears to be ethnic cleansing of an area occupied for centuries by a minority to make room for members of the Jewish majority, is a violation of international law. The argument that it has something to do with building permits is a hollow one indeed, considering the enormous documented differences in the government's handling of unlicensed building by Jews and Bedouins.