Israel charging money to demolsih Bedouin homes

[kai]

I agree completely.

I agree completely too

 

[Bismillah]

Show me a link of the ethnically targeted ejection of a people predating the state by centuries and you'll have a point." Comparing them to expats is retarded.

bulldozed the houses because their Bedouin .

Pretty sure they did

Bedouins' lack of access to land occurs in a wider context affecting Israel's Palestinian Arab population generally. Not only has the state confiscated pre-1948 Palestinian Arab lands, it has not allowed Arab citizens to establish new towns; nor has it approved adequate expansion of existing ones. Since 1948 the state has authorized the creation of about 1,000 Jewish communities, but not a single Arab community except for the seven government-planned townships and the nine new or newly recognized villages, which concentrate the Bedouin in limited areas in the Negev, and some similar towns in the Galilee.

The state rarely grants expansion requests to Arab local authorities.

In the northern Negev region, Bedouin municipalities have jurisdiction over 1.9 percent of the land, while Bedouin citizens comprise 25.2 percent of the population in that area.

For example, the Abu Basma Regional Council in the Negev, which includes the newly recognized or established Bedouin villages/townships, covers just 49,000 dunams.[72] The Jewish Regional Council of Bnei Shimon in the Negev covers approximately half a million dunams, and the Ramat HaNegev Regional Council covers 4.3 million dunams.

In the Negev today many Jewish localities are expanding and new ones are being created. The spokesperson of the Bnei Shimon Regional Council, in the northern Negev, told Human Rights Watch that many of the council's kibbutzim and moshavim (collective farming communities) are developing new neighborhoods and each is planning to add more than a hundred new homes.

[75] On the other hand, planning officials have not allocated sufficient land for the residential, infrastructural, and livelihood needs of the seven government-planned Bedouin townships in the Negev or the newly recognized villages.

Nili Baruch, an urban planner working with Bimkom, highlights the plight of Segev Shalom, one of the seven Bedouin townships:

"Segev Shalom … has no developed industrial areas, even though the master plan for the town designates about 100 dunams for local industry. Most of the town's area is designated for residential dwellings. Despite this, the town lacks residential land… Lack of space for residential use is characteristic of most of the Arab Bedouin towns.[76]"

Minister of Interior Roni Bar-On told Knesset members in December 2006, "We will not permit and not supply all the wishes of the [Bedouin] sector on the issue of rural construction… there is a problem of land and it is impossible that everyone will build for himself a house with a plot of land next to it."[77] In fact, the Negev contains the regional council with the largest land mass and smallest population in all of Israel. Ramat HaNegev Regional Council covers an area of 4.3 million dunams (over 250,000 acres) with a population of just 3,700 residents in 10 rural communities, one of them numbering just nine families.[78] The Regional Council, actively trying to attract new residents, has hired a publicity company and started an advertising campaign. In the Ramat HaNegev Regional Council, moreover, the ILA has allocated large tracts of land to single families in order to create individual farms (see below).[79]

Ramat HaNegev Regional Council has ignored the Bedouin already living within its jurisdiction and has not offered to recognize villages or give them any place within the council's exclusively Jewish communities.[80]

And I love this part regarding Jewish "farms"

State agencies built many of these settlements without the zoning or planning documents necessary to acquire permits; the farms are thus illegal. The ILA did not publicly tender the farms nor allocate the large plots in a transparent way, based on clear criteria. Government agencies allocated public funds to establish the farms and connect them to infrastructure and utilities, even where the farms were built illegally and are not close to other inhabited communities. This stands in direct contradiction to the government's assertion that they cannot provide services to Bedouin living in illegal housing and in dispersed locations.

officials approved the "Wine Route" Plan... main goal appears to be to legalize retroactively existing individual farms that were built illegally, and to construct new ones.[88] The plan is remarkably similar to an earlier plan for individual farms in the Negev that the ILA and Ramat HaNegev officials promoted as a means to help "prevent the takeover of Negev lands by the Bedouin" and to strengthen the Jewish population in the region.[89]

From the perspective of the Bedouin population, the proposal is part of a series of plans aimed at establishing dozens of Jewish communities in the Naqab, for the purpose of, among other aims, limiting Bedouin control of their ancestors' land. For example, in July 2003, a government-approved plan to create 30 new Jewish settlements within the Green Line, 14 of which were to be built in the Naqab. This plan included the rhetoric of "creating a buffer between the Bedouin communities," "preventing a Bedouin takeover," and ensuring the security of the (Jewish) residents of the Naqab.[93]

I am not dismissing anything i am pointing out that its not particular to Israel

Yeah it is and people have the audacity to call this disgusting excuse of a country a democracy.

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/03/30/map-0

 

[kai]

On March 31, Human Rights Watch released a 130-page report headlined “Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages”. A preliminary analysis of this report demonstrates a number of fundamental flaws:

In contrast to the complexity of the issues related to the massive growth of the Bedouin population in Israel, and the very damaging impact on the desert ecology resulting from illegal construction, this report presents a highly simplistic and misleading image designed to demonize Israel. The absence of any discussion of the Bedouin in Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia highlights the primacy of HRW’s political goals.
Many of the claims in this report are copied from highly politicized NGOs, such as Alternative Information Center, and lack credibility. In contrast, detailed Israeli government responses to HRW’s request for information are distorted or erased.
Important factors that do not support the political message are omitted, such as the core issue of Bedouin polygamy and the huge social welfare budget necessary to support the children in these families.
The use of terms such as “indigenous people” and “land rights” with reference to the nomadic Bedouin population is misleading.
This 130 page report, and HRW’s large scale public relations campaign that accompanied it is another expression of this NGOs highly distorted and obsessive emphasis on demonizing Israel.


The Israel policy response, as addressed by the Israeli Ministry of Justice of July 23, 2007 in a memo addressed to HRW, is based on the effort to move members of this population to government planned towns. The memo notes that "The Government offers the residents of the Bedouin diaspora permanent housing solutions in permanent towns which include all the necessary facilities and infrastructures, according to the present policy." The authors of the HRW report also choose to remove the following details of assistance provided to the Bedouin who agree to move to these authorized communities:

Financial compensation for demolition of illegal buildings and relocation to permanent towns.
Option to purchase a developed building plot for a low price (or at no cost).
Single residents over age of 24 who do not receive compensation for illegal buildings receive a building plot without cost.
Special benefits to Bedouin members of the security forces.
Optional extra building plots purchase – every Bedouin citizen is eligible to purchase another two building plots per family at reduced prices.



http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/...estructive_contribution_to_a_complex_problem_





http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/Ministry_of_Justice_response_to_hrw_2007.pdf

 

[Bismillah]

In terms of compensation

My brother moved to the new town because he has disabled children, and he needed a real home. He got 180,000 NIS compensation for the structure he left here and an 800-meter plot. But it turns out the compensation they paid him wasn't enough to build a new house. He had to use all his savings, and it still wasn't enough.

I can't finish the house and live in it due to lack of money. I even managed to save a lot of money because I'm a builder, so I laid my own tile and did the pipes and electricity myself. But still there are no light fixtures, no counters in the kitchen, no toilets or sink, no furniture. Thirty percent of the compensation I received was gone before I even started to build because we had to pay for the utility companies to open electricity, sewerage, and water infrastructure on our plots.

The exact compensation offered Bedouin over the years has increased slightly, although the basic formula has remained the same: Bedouin with less than 400 dunams of land receive no alternative land but only monetary compensation, while those with more than 400 dunams receive 20 percent in alternative land and 80 percent in monetary compensation. In the unrecognized villages, the actual monetary compensation varies between 1,100 and 3,000 NIS per dunam, a fraction of the market value of the land[215]

By way of comparison, the average Jewish family who owned a housing plot in a Gaza settlement received or will receive between 1.5 and 2 million NIS in compensation.[216] Owners of agricultural land confiscated to build the Trans-Israel Highway received compensation in the form of the same amount of good quality farmland at nearby Kibbutz Bahan.http://www.hrw.org/node/62284/section/8#_ftn217

The Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics periodically compiles a chart showing the socioeconomic ranking of all localities in Israel with 1 being the lowest and 198 being the highest. The following extract from the 2003 chart shows that the Bedouin townships constitute seven of the poorest eight localities in Israel.[218] For comparison, some of the Jewish locales in the Negev are also included below. Two of them fall within the five wealthiest communities in Israel.

Kseifa 1
Tel Sheva 2
Rahat 3
Arara 4
Segev Shalom 5
Lagiya 7
Hura 8
Dimona 95
Arad 109
Beer Sheva 118
Meitar 193
Lehavim 195
Omer 197

The budgets available to the local authorities in the seven government-planned Bedouin townships are the lowest in the entire country.

At the end of the 1990s, half of the houses in the townships were still not connected to a sewerage system.

There is no public transportation either within the townships or between the townships and other cities.

Ariel Dloomy from Dukium points out that there are no public libraries, sports centers, swimming pools, or real industrial areas in any of the townships. Some of the townships lack post offices or community centers.[220] And according to researchers at BenGurionUniversity of the Negev, the townships also suffer from poor roads, the absence of economic activity, and inadequate health, education, social, and recreational services.[221]

Another major problem facing the government-planned townships, mentioned earlier, is the fact that the state confiscated land for the townships that is claimed by other Bedouin.In the areas of townships where Bedouin have registered ownership claims over the land, it has been difficult for planning and land authorities to develop housing plots, exacerbating a real shortage of housing options in the townships. Ahmed al-Asad, head of Lakiya Local Council, claims that of the township's 9,000 residents, 3,000 live outside the official municipal borders, in unrecognized neighborhoods. Meanwhile, there are 4,000 empty plots inside Lakiya that cannot be allocated due to Bedouin ownership claims over them.[223]

The problems are known, and yet planning authorities continue to issue demolition orders and demolish homes, while claiming that the Bedouin can simply relocate to one of the seven government-planned townships.

The Abu 'Bayid clan is originally from Sharia (near today's Netivot), but the military government forcibly transferred them to Lakiya, and later to Tel Arad, in the early 1950s. When the government announced the building of the recognized township of Lakiya in the 1970s, many members of the Abu 'Bayid clan were eager to go, as some clan members had ancestral land in the area.

I wrote the number of this plot on my ID card-here you can see it-I am supposed to be in neighborhood 3, plot 281, Lakiya. I went to the Ministry of Interior and asked it to register this as my official address, and now it is in my ID card as you see. And yet today it is still an empty plot. From the beginning the real Bedouin owner of this piece of land agreed to let me take the plot there and to build on it. I am an active member of the community and have been active in the struggle to recognize the villages and improve the quality of life in Lakiya and the townships. I don't have enemies in the community. In 1992 the Bedouin owner of this plot agreed to let me use the land and gave me a signed letter. When I got this letter from the owner in '92 and went with my wife to the ILA I even had to pay more money since the plot was a bit larger than the original one dunam option I had purchased. So I paid the additional money. But I still didn't get the plot. Then two years ago the Bedouin owner said, "Let's go together so you can finally get the plot." While there are many other people who have a problem because the real Bedouin owner or claimant of the land won't let them develop, that is not my problem-on the contrary he is willing to help solve the problem.http://www.hrw.org/node/62284/section/8#_ftn231

Despite all of Sultan Abu 'Bayid's efforts, today he still lives in an unrecognized neighborhood in an unlicensed building, waiting for the ILA to hand over his plot. "It is almost 30 years later, and I still don't have my plot."[232]

 

[Bismillah]

What you have linked me is an article stating that the Human Rights Watch is biased from a Jerusalem based Israeli propaganda machine. One is obviously biased, the other is not. You want to accuse it of inaccuracy? Then examine each source and discount it, otherwise my statements stands yours falls. In fact it is hilarious that the propaganda machine throws up a random red herring pointing to Saudi Arabia.

Sorry no, we are discussing Israel's own policy of discrimination and seizure of Bedouin land.

 

[Bismillah]

I've just highlighted two examples of the discriminatory practices of land allocation and access as well the lack of compensation and alternatives. This does not go into the actual approach to the demolitions such as the ubiquitous destruction of personal property or the lack of representation and consultation with the Bedouins.

 

[Shermana]

What you have linked me is an article stating that the Human Rights Watch is biased from a Jerusalem based Israeli propaganda machine. One is obviously biased, the other is not. You want to accuse it of inaccuracy? Then examine each source and discount it, otherwise my statements stands yours falls. In fact it is hilarious that the propaganda machine throws up a random red herring pointing to Saudi Arabia.

Sorry no, we are discussing Israel's own policy of discrimination and seizure of Bedouin land.

Naturally, if it comes from an Israeli site its biased and if it doesn't, it's not. Al-Jazeera is very objective in this logic.

 

[Bismillah]

Naturally, if it comes from an Israeli site its biased and if it doesn't, it's not. Al-Jazeera is very objective in this logic.

It's an Israeli funded propaganda watchdog. I got my information from the Human Rights Watch, I'll let whatever common sense is present in this thread decide which is more trustworthy. Naturally if you wish to disprove my claims disprove the sources cited.

 

[kai]

What you have linked me is an article stating that the Human Rights Watch is biased from a Jerusalem based Israeli propaganda machine. One is obviously biased, the other is not. You want to accuse it of inaccuracy? Then examine each source and discount it, otherwise my statements stands yours falls. In fact it is hilarious that the propaganda machine throws up a random red herring pointing to Saudi Arabia.

Sorry no, we are discussing Israel's own policy of discrimination and seizure of Bedouin land.

Sorry no, we are discussing Israel's own policy of discrimination and seizure of Bedouin land Theres the crux of the matter right there, Bedouin land its an ownership dispute those Bedouin who claim ownership have Ottoman deeds which of course are worthless.


What you have done Bismillah is brought up a very interesting subject of the Bedouin and their relationship with the countries in which they lay claim to ancestral land as former nomadic people. The problem as i see it is that some of them may indeed hold Ottoman deeds but there are worthless. So whatever Israel is doing and its doing it through their legal system is based on the fact that the land is not Bedouin in the first place but Israeli.

I dont really have an argument other than i don't believe the issue can be looked at without the legality issue having a bearing. Its for me the most important factor when looking at how Bedouin compensation etc are treated in comparison with Israelis who hold legitimate deeds ( in the eyes of the Israelis of course). Do the Egyptians recognize Ottoman deeds In the Sinai ? Do the Lebanese recognize them in Bekaa? They are indeed in a plight a very similar plight to the Roma in Europe.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ismail Khaldi is the first Bedouin deputy consul of the State of Israel and the highest ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service.[85] Khaldi is a strong advocate of Israel. While acknowledging that the state of Israeli Bedouin minority is not ideal, he said
I am a proud Israeli - along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deals honestly. By any yardstick you choose -- educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation -- Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East.

Negev Bedouin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I know you dont want to leave Israel in this discussion but they are not treated much better in Arab countries either are they? except for Jordan and even there the relationship is becoming strained.

I believe there are 100 thousand Bedouin in Lebanon who are denied citizenship and are unable to purchase land in their own name nor to have access to education and public health care. But we don't want to go there,I suggest its not the Bedouin you are really concerned about so lets just concentrate on the enemy Israel.

 

[Levite]

It still sounds to me like this is not so much a revelation of the Israeli government using powers it does not or should not have, so much as an abuse of powers it does and should have.

I still say that the mere removal of people from land is, at heart, eminent domain, and in theory, there is nothing wrong with it. Most countries have such governmental powers, and few exceptions are based on length of familial tenancy.

What does appear to be wrong with the current scenario is that the Israeli government is not providing adequate compensation (both financial and in terms of land recompense), and such compensation as they are, in fact, providing is being undercut by systematic delays in necessary governmental installation of infrastructure and basic services.

Is the Israeli government failing these citizens and not rendering them the due of their civil rights? Yes. Is what they are doing, unfortunately, much different than what goes on in most democratic nations? No.

Of course these are shameful problems, and Israel ought to deal with them, and correct them sooner rather than later. To my mind, that is not even a question. But making this out to be a major international issue is, as far as I can see, nothing but the usual anti-Zionist bluster. Not when the same issues are found, in one form or another, pretty much everywhere.

 

[kai]

The Bedouin are unfortunately finding themselves in much the same situation as the Roma in Europe, in as much as a nomadic lifestyle confronted by the inevitable march of time which has produced international boundaries and the inexorable absorption or destruction of any nomadic peoples who attempted to survive into the twenty-first century.
The Israelis can and must do better, as should other nations that have boundaries that encompass areas in which the Bedouin consider ancestral land.

 

[Alceste]

I wonder what would happen in America if a group of people living in a town dates hundreds of years back were inexplicably regarded as squatters, cut off from basic public services, herded into poverty stricken areas, and watched as their cultural herritage was paved for Jewish "settlements" payed for by public funds, all the while being charged for the demolition costs while a group of racists ran amok vandalizing and stealing their few remaining possessions and cheering at their dispossestion.

Except for the bit about charging costs that's exactly how America came to exist in the first place. (Canada too.) Humans are jerks.

Gives you a realistic scale of the "only democracy in the Middle East". Such a backward bigoted practice is reminiscent of the dispossession of Native Americans.

 

[Alceste]

On March 31, Human Rights Watch released a 130-page report headlined “Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages”. A preliminary analysis of this report demonstrates a number of fundamental flaws:

In contrast to the complexity of the issues related to the massive growth of the Bedouin population in Israel, and the very damaging impact on the desert ecology resulting from illegal construction, this report presents a highly simplistic and misleading image designed to demonize Israel. The absence of any discussion of the Bedouin in Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia highlights the primacy of HRW’s political goals.
Many of the claims in this report are copied from highly politicized NGOs, such as Alternative Information Center, and lack credibility. In contrast, detailed Israeli government responses to HRW’s request for information are distorted or erased.
Important factors that do not support the political message are omitted, such as the core issue of Bedouin polygamy and the huge social welfare budget necessary to support the children in these families.
The use of terms such as “indigenous people” and “land rights” with reference to the nomadic Bedouin population is misleading.
This 130 page report, and HRW’s large scale public relations campaign that accompanied it is another expression of this NGOs highly distorted and obsessive emphasis on demonizing Israel.


The Israel policy response, as addressed by the Israeli Ministry of Justice of July 23, 2007 in a memo addressed to HRW, is based on the effort to move members of this population to government planned towns. The memo notes that "The Government offers the residents of the Bedouin diaspora permanent housing solutions in permanent towns which include all the necessary facilities and infrastructures, according to the present policy." The authors of the HRW report also choose to remove the following details of assistance provided to the Bedouin who agree to move to these authorized communities:

Financial compensation for demolition of illegal buildings and relocation to permanent towns.
Option to purchase a developed building plot for a low price (or at no cost).
Single residents over age of 24 who do not receive compensation for illegal buildings receive a building plot without cost.
Special benefits to Bedouin members of the security forces.
Optional extra building plots purchase – every Bedouin citizen is eligible to purchase another two building plots per family at reduced prices.



http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/...estructive_contribution_to_a_complex_problem_





http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/File/Ministry_of_Justice_response_to_hrw_2007.pdf

OK, so now we know what the Israeli government thought of the HRW report on the subject. What did YOU think of it, kai?

As a person who relies pretty heavily on HRW in my research, it's impossible for me to take the assertion that they are "anti-Israel" seriously. They are pro-human rights. They're equally critical of all violations in all countries. A brief perusal of their website should be enough to make that crystal clear to anyone.

Edit: here, in case you didn't get a chance to read it yet:
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/03/30/map-0

 

[kai]

OK, so now we know what the Israeli government thought of the HRW report on the subject. What did YOU think of it, kai?

As a person who relies pretty heavily on HRW in my research, it's impossible for me to take the assertion that they are "anti-Israel" seriously. I didnt say they were "anti Israel" They are pro-human rights. They're equally critical of all violations in all countries. A brief perusal of their website should be enough to make that crystal clear to anyone.

Edit: here, in case you didn't get a chance to read it yet:
Off the Map | Human Rights Watch

see post 131,For my opinion.

i did read it.

couldnt find much there about Bedouin treatment in any other country, but will take another search when i have more time because it must be there .I am interested in how the Bedouin are classed as "stateless Arabs" in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Lebanon and Kuwait and other Arab countries


http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/13/kuwait-stateless-bidun-denied-rights

But i suppose i digress from the original OP in that it concerns Israel.

 

[sadiq]

I wonder what would happen in America if a group of people living in a town dates hundreds of years back were inexplicably regarded as squatters, cut off from basic public services, herded into poverty stricken areas, and watched as their cultural herritage was paved for Jewish "settlements" payed for by public funds, all the while being charged for the demolition costs while a group of racists ran amok vandalizing and stealing their few remaining possessions and cheering at their dispossestion.

Gives you a realistic scale of the "only democracy in the Middle East". Such a backward bigoted practice is reminiscent of the dispossession of Native Americans.

I wonder what would happen if it what you said would have occured in an Arab/Muslim country.

Wait it did!
it also involved the killing of thousands of my people including several relatives and the world did nothing and not a word uttered.

Gives you a realistic scale of the "world's most peaceful religion" and its adherents. Such a backward bigoted practice is reminiscent of...the holocaust?

 

[Bismillah]

Really alceste it's pretty obvious kai's opinion on the issue. He tries to justify discriminatory cleansing of Bedouins from their ancestral lands, the total absence of any compensation, and the second class citizenship that they suffer while Israeli Jews receive private lands through public funding on the basis of moral relativity. And not even that! He hints that there may be mistreatment of Bedouins amongst Arab countries as well as if that somehow justifies real and documented discriminatory, racist, and despicable policies of Israeli Zionism.

I think it is obvious that once someone fails to look at a these practices from an objective moral scale but resorts to weaseling and demeaning the actual issue through unfounded, unproven, and unrelated guilt by association of neighboring countries. "Hey thus must be doing something bad too! That makes it ok".

It's clear cut when one starts to regurgitate the crap the Israeli propaganda machine spews out as a legitimate counterpoint where one's opinion lies and it certainly isn't on the fence.

 

[kai]

Really alceste it's pretty obvious kai's opinion on the issue. He tries to justify discriminatory cleansing of Bedouins from their ancestral lands, the total absence of any compensation, and the second class citizenship that they suffer while Israeli Jews receive private lands through public funding on the basis of moral relativity. And not even that! He hints that there may be mistreatment of Bedouins amongst Arab countries as well as if that somehow justifies real and documented discriminatory, racist, and despicable policies of Israeli Zionism.

I think it is obvious that once someone fails to look at a these practices from an objective moral scale but resorts to weaseling and demeaning the actual issue through unfounded, unproven, and unrelated guilt by association of neighboring countries. "Hey thus must be doing something bad too! That makes it ok".

It's clear cut when one starts to regurgitate the crap the Israeli propaganda machine spews out as a legitimate counterpoint where one's opinion lies and it certainly isn't on the fence.

Sorry if i don't join you in blinkering my interest in the plight of the Bedouin solely to Israel.

Its a fairly new subject to me so i have endeavoured to look into exactly what and who are the Bedouin .

I have already said Israel can and should do more for these people. I have no idea if the Israeli counterpoint is legitimate or not, and i dont justify anything by including their treatment in say Lebanon,or Kuwait i am just putting it into the debate, and surely if they are all doing bad then they are all doing bad --no?

Tell me what you know of these people?how these Bedouin are not Palestinian! what's the reason they are stateless in many countries? Whats their status in Sinai? It puzzles me how many Arabs see the Bedouin lifestyle as something they share and take part in if only part time but somehow they seem separate? or shall i make another thread about the Bedouin and leave you to it?

 

[Bismillah]

There is a difference between "blinkering interest" and weasal words and judging things on a scale of relativity instead of objectivity. It's interesting that you do this every time for example whenever we discuss Israel.

That you always seek to divert the issue is really just strengthening my point that you will never ever look at Israel with a critical eye but seek to divert your attention else where. Even if that means responding vis a vis Israel's own propaganda machine.

But what do I know, I just hate Israel! It's not like I have valid proof or anything.

 

[kai]

There is a difference between "blinkering incest" and weasal words and judging things on a scale of relativity instead of objectivity. It's interesting that you do this every time for example whenever we discuss Israel.

That you always seek to divert the issue is really just strengthening my point that you will never ever look at Israel with a critical eye but seek to divert your attention else where. Even if that means responding vis a vis Israel's own propaganda machine.

But what do I know, I just hate Israel! It's not like I have valid proof or anything.

I shall start my own thread on the Bedouin and I will leave you to it then!

 

[elmarna]

Just a footnate - try looking up --bedouin aide.
What you will find is that isreal will not leave the red cross or any other "humanitarian group" give the chilren medicsal aide or food!
I was very disturbed at a group of people who fails to see gods good works something to support!