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Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
UN would not have created Israel if Balfour had not already started it.
And I thought the biased believed a god gave it to them.
Muslims endured the crusades.
Jewish people are accused of killing Jesus.

There is reason for both Jews and Muslims to have common Christian enemy.
Sad but true.

The Jews and Muslims are better friends, than most will ever know because of the fight over that stupid hill.
Reason for everyone to realize how backwards religious beliefs make everyone.
Now you expressing beautifully. No pun. I am quite serious.
Thank you and in the one term.
Shalom
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Hamas cannot be permitted to remain in power. I don't know how many more times or ways to explain this. Your assessment that there's no urgent need to neutralize them or rescue the hostages they're holding is baffling. Mere defensiveness is not a sufficient means of protecting Israel or rescuing hostages. Hamas needs to be defeated.

I never said there was no urgent need to neutralize Hamas or rescue the hostages, but neither has been achieved after a month of intense bombardment, so it is your argument with me that is baffling. The defeat of Hamas is inevitable, but the priority should be humanitarian aid for Gazan civilians and their safety, which is indeed urgent. They are not the combatants, but Israel makes little distinction between them and the terrorists that perpetrated the attacks. No progress has been made in getting the hostages released, and Israel barely expresses any remorse for civilian deaths or concern for their needs.


There are very few neutral parties in this conflict. You can enlist the help of the UN, but as they're not a government I'd assume their help would be more a temporary stop gap.

No, this kind of situation is one of the reasons the UN exists--to try to stop violence and help resolve conflicts. Peacekeeping troops can come from countries that are not involved in this conflict. Israeli troops are not considered neutral parties by anyone, so they should play no role in administering Gaza for the time being. That will just involve more pain and suffering for everyone, including Israel.


... they want to weaken (and ultimately destroy) Israel.

The desire that Palestinians and other Muslims have for revenge against Israel cannot be stopped by Israeli military action, so just get that out of your head. Even if Israel could kill all Gazans, that would not put an end to terrorist attacks on Israel, only guarantee more attacks in the future. There are extremist Israelis who want to drive all Palestinians off their territory now and simply annex those areas, so there is no point in getting hysterical over the existence of people who call for the destruction of Israel. Nothing can be done about the past, but good advice for the future would be for Israel not to allow a known terrorist organization like Hamas be used to divide Palestinians so that they can continue to build illegal settlements in the West Bank. If Israel can't live with a two-state solution, then it needs to rethink its adamant opposition to a one-state solution. Israel's Gaza past policy is what enabled Hamas to build itself up and launch the October 7 attack.


...The hostage takers had nothing to gain by releasing their hostages and surrendering, since that would likely be a death sentence for them.

If they refuse to release them, it will definitely be a death sentence for them.

Then it's like I said. They had no incentive to release the hostages unless something could be worked out in negotiations. If they are going to die anyway, then they why not just take the hostages with them?


...obvious common sense? If you have fewer supplies, you are able to use them for a shorter time than with more supplies.

That's true for Palestinian men, women, and children who are noncombatants, and they are the ones being denied supplies. According to your own admission, Hamas has stockpiled such supplies and could hold out a lot longer while international outrage against Israel builds.


How many times must it be explained? Hamas cannot remain in power.

You yourself admitted that they had been neutralized already. So they aren't really in power now, and nobody, least of all me, is arguing that they should remain in power. You seem to assume that Israel should continue bombarding the Gazan population--killing mostly women and children--because that will make them release the hostages and surrender? This has already been going on for a month. Israel is just now trying to occupy the rubble to see if they can find any surviving hostages and Hamas fighters.


Advisors can't talk to people from a distance? What are we doing right now?

Oh, I see. You think that all military advisers do is talk, so why not just use Zoom and PowerPoint? No need for security, training exercises, or demonstrations of urban warfare tactics. An added bonus is that people can check their email while all of this is going on. :rolleyes:


Aside from which, what makes you think Israel doesn't have military experts of its own to consult?

Think, man.

So now you think that any old military expertise will do? The need is for experts that have the experience in conducting ground operations in urban environments, especially in the Middle East. The IDF might have a few things to learn from experts with the relevant experience from the numerous wars that the US has gotten itself into over the decades, especially in Iraq, where it learned from making a lot of mistakes.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
Murdering the adults is what created this generation of hamas. Are you trying to doing it again?

ie... genocide is what you are intending?

You can't win! That mentality is what perfects an inhumane approach. Be careful as talking like that will make you an enemy of all states.

I know, the pursuit of that stupid hill.

See ezek 22........ the dross dont make it.
And so the circle game goes on. Why is one participant more guilty than any other?
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I never said there was no urgent need to neutralize Hamas or rescue the hostages, but neither has been achieved after a month of intense bombardment, so it is your argument with me that is baffling.

If your view is that the military should only be involved if conflicts end quickly, I'm glad you weren't around in WWII when we fought the Axis powers for years.

The defeat of Hamas is inevitable, but the priority should be humanitarian aid for Gazan civilians and their safety, which is indeed urgent. They are not the combatants, but Israel makes little distinction between them and the terrorists that perpetrated the attacks.

Again, this is just false. Israel is literally the only side of the conflict that does make a distinction between civilians and combatants.

No progress has been made in getting the hostages released, and Israel barely expresses any remorse for civilian deaths or concern for their needs.

Both of these statements are just false. I don't know what else to say.

No, this kind of situation is one of the reasons the UN exists--to try to stop violence and help resolve conflicts. Peacekeeping troops can come from countries that are not involved in this conflict. Israeli troops are not considered neutral parties by anyone, so they should play no role in administering Gaza for the time being. That will just involve more pain and suffering for everyone, including Israel.

The UN's involvement would likely be temporary, I said. Meaning it is not a long term solution.

The desire that Palestinians and other Muslims have for revenge against Israel cannot be stopped by Israeli military action, so just get that out of your head.

This is painfully silly. If you have no means to carry out your desire, you cannot fulfill it. If Hamas is removed from power and its military capacity is destroyed, it cannot carry out further attempts to destroy Israel.

There are extremist Israelis who want to drive all Palestinians off their territory now and simply annex those areas, so there is no point in getting hysterical over the existence of people who call for the destruction of Israel.

This is irrelevant whataboutism.

Nothing can be done about the past, but good advice for the future would be for Israel not to allow a known terrorist organization like Hamas be used to divide Palestinians so that they can continue to build illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Almost like Hamas should be removed from power in Gaza...

If Israel can't live with a two-state solution, then it needs to rethink its adamant opposition to a one-state solution.

Oh for Jesus Christ's Almighty sake. Israel is the only party in this conflict that's open to a two-state solution. It has repeatedly been open to such plans, and Palestinian leadership has repeatedly been oppposed.

Your views here are just not grounded in the facts.

That's true for Palestinian men, women, and children who are noncombatants, and they are the ones being denied supplies.

And Hamas is to blame for that situation.

You yourself admitted that they had been neutralized already.

No, I didn't admit that.

So they aren't really in power now, and nobody, least of all me, is arguing that they should remain in power. You seem to assume that Israel should continue bombarding the Gazan population--killing mostly women and children--because that will make them release the hostages and surrender? This has already been going on for a month. Israel is just now trying to occupy the rubble to see if they can find any surviving hostages and Hamas fighters.

Again, you assume that war is quick and easy business. It isn't.

Oh, I see. You think that all military advisers do is talk, so why not just use Zoom and PowerPoint? No need for security, training exercises, or demonstrations of urban warfare tactics. An added bonus is that people can check their email while all of this is going on. :rolleyes:

First of all, you haven't the slightest clue what military expertise the Israeli military already has. This isn't their first time fighting Hamas. You have no idea what military experts they've already consulted from other allied countries like the US. You have no clue what training they've already received.

In short, you're purely pulling this demand that they get more hands-on training from somebody mid-war out of your anus.

Enough.

We've gone back and forth quite enough now on this topic. Have the last word.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I blame Christians - Christians started zionism, Christians waged ww1, ww2, Christians want Jews in Israel for the Christian version of Armageddon to start. Christians want ww3 to start.
Not in my book, however... Protestants started and continue to uphold zionism, but we didn't start any world wars and won't be doing so. I blame it on the royals.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
If your view is that the military should only be involved if conflicts end quickly, I'm glad you weren't around in WWII when we fought the Axis powers for years.

The scope of Israel's response to Oct 7 is not on the same scale as WWII. False analogy.


Again, this is just false. Israel is literally the only side of the conflict that does make a distinction between civilians and combatants.

Not in a way that matters to the tens of thousands of non-combatant Palestinians who have been massacred by Israeli bombardments.


The UN's involvement would likely be temporary, I said. Meaning it is not a long term solution.

I never claimed it would be a permanent solution. I agree with the US position that Israel should not attempt to occupy and govern Gaza. Huge mistake. (I can shout just as loud as you can in boldface font. :))


This is painfully silly. If you have no means to carry out your desire, you cannot fulfill it. If Hamas is removed from power and its military capacity is destroyed, it cannot carry out further attempts to destroy Israel.

I agree, but I wasn't talking about Hamas. I was talking about Palestinians and Muslim countries that support them. They will still be there when Hamas is gone, and the desire for revenge will only have grown. Asymmetric warfare will come back even without Hamas per se any more than Iraqi Baathists disappeared after Saddam Hussein was overthrown and executed. That led to the birth of ISIS.


Almost like Hamas should be removed from power in Gaza...

Almost, but not quite. That's not where our disagreement lies. My argument was that a new version of Hamas should not be allowed to grow in its place because the same idiots that helped it to grow are still running the Israeli government.


Oh for Jesus Christ's Almighty sake. Israel is the only party in this conflict that's open to a two-state solution. It has repeatedly been open to such plans, and Palestinian leadership has repeatedly been oppposed.

Your views here are just not grounded in the facts.

Actually, the whole point of the Netanyahu strategy of allowing Hamas to become the permanent government in Gaza was to thwart anything like the two-state solution, which would have led to a Palestinian homeland. That is what Netanyahu and the Likud-run governments have been working against.


And Hamas is to blame for that situation.

Hamas is not cutting them off from humanitarian supplies. Israel is. :facepalm:


Again, you assume that war is quick and easy business. It isn't.

Nor can civilian noncombatants live or dodge around Gaza avoiding bombs for long without access to food, clean water, shelter, and power. But that's why Israel is cutting off their supplies--to punish them along with Hamas.


First of all, you haven't the slightest clue what military expertise the Israeli military already has. This isn't their first time fighting Hamas. You have no idea what military experts they've already consulted from other allied countries like the US. You have no clue what training they've already received.

In short, you're purely pulling this demand that they get more hands-on training from somebody mid-war out of your anus.

The US offered advisers and urged restraint at the very beginning of the bombardment. As for having clues and military expertise, I rather suspect we are in the same ballpark on that.


We've gone back and forth quite enough now on this topic. Have the last word.

Agreed. It takes two to tango. Very generous of you. :)
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Let's hope that the 5 day pause succeeds and can be extended. There are people on both sides of the conflict that will attempt to scuttle it so that they can continue fighting. This is a huge victory for the Biden administration, which brokered the deal along with the Qataris, who are a US ally in the region but have also been sponsors of Hamas.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
AFAICT, the deal is still not concluded. Looks like Netanyahu is balking. Far right members of his coalition want to keep fighting. I'm not sure what they think is going to be the outcome. It is probably not possible to completely eradicate Hamas. They are deeply entrenched in their tunnels, and the people on the surface are in desperate need of aid.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Far right members of his coalition want to keep fighting. I'm not sure what they think is going to be the outcome.
They're Kahanists who wish to kill as many Palestinians as possible, drive the rest out and annex Gaza and the West Bank. Multiple members of the Israeli government have already killed for Gaza to be annihilated. One even called for it to be nuked.

 

Orbit

I'm a planet
They're Kahanists who wish to kill as many Palestinians as possible, drive the rest out and annex Gaza and the West Bank. Multiple members of the Israeli government have already killed for Gaza to be annihilated. One even called for it to be nuked.

I was on twitter and someone posted a link to this, which was recently broadcast on Israeli TV. It's a bunch of Israeli girls singing about genocide in Gaza. Here is the first verse:

“The Friendship Song 2023”​


Lyrics by Ofer Rosenbaum and Shulamit Stolero


First Stanza:


Autumn night falls over the beach of Gaza
Planes are bombing, destruction, destruction
Look the IDF is crossing the line
to annihilate the swastika-bearers
In another year there will be nothing there
And we will safely return to our homes
Within a year we will annihilate everyone
And then we will return to plow our fields

Here's the actual video that the TV station broadcast and uploaded to twitter, then deleted:


I don't even know what to make of this.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
AFAICT, the deal is still not concluded. Looks like Netanyahu is balking. Far right members of his coalition want to keep fighting. I'm not sure what they think is going to be the outcome. It is probably not possible to completely eradicate Hamas. They are deeply entrenched in their tunnels, and the people on the surface are in desperate need of aid.
The attempt is to remove palestinians from the whole area. A form of genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Hamas is a small group of rogue terrorist/resistance. Israel has the extremist settlers that are not much different than HAMAS but israel will not stop them.

The bias is sickening and there are so many that defend israel destroying palestine and palestinians is gross to the say the least.

But the israeli defenders do not care about genocide or removing the palestinians as they believe that they have a right and then call it defensive.


The primary reason is the israeli extremists/terrorist are trying to take the mount, remove the gold domed building and intend to build a temple.

The palestinians will not let them. Even if they have to fight with rocks and stones. The reason israelis are so afraid of Iran is the ayatollah imposed a 'red line' that israel will not touch that location/the mount.

If the mess does not end, it will end up as a ww3. Israelis are getting too arrogant with the expectation that 'we the people' will defend that apartheid.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
I was on twitter and someone posted a link to this, which was recently broadcast on Israeli TV. It's a bunch of Israeli girls singing about genocide in Gaza. Here is the first verse:

“The Friendship Song 2023”​


Lyrics by Ofer Rosenbaum and Shulamit Stolero


First Stanza:


Autumn night falls over the beach of Gaza
Planes are bombing, destruction, destruction
Look the IDF is crossing the line
to annihilate the swastika-bearers
In another year there will be nothing there
And we will safely return to our homes
Within a year we will annihilate everyone
And then we will return to plow our fields

Here's the actual video that the TV station broadcast and uploaded to twitter, then deleted:


I don't even know what to make of this.
Have we an equivalent (from the opposing side), so as we can compare the merits, or as to how the children ae just used, like all the media?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I was on twitter and someone posted a link to this, which was recently broadcast on Israeli TV. It's a bunch of Israeli girls singing about genocide in Gaza. Here is the first verse:

“The Friendship Song 2023”​


Lyrics by Ofer Rosenbaum and Shulamit Stolero


First Stanza:


Autumn night falls over the beach of Gaza
Planes are bombing, destruction, destruction
Look the IDF is crossing the line
to annihilate the swastika-bearers
In another year there will be nothing there
And we will safely return to our homes
Within a year we will annihilate everyone
And then we will return to plow our fields

Here's the actual video that the TV station broadcast and uploaded to twitter, then deleted:


I don't even know what to make of this.
Terrible, imo.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Every country has its equivalent of Kahanists, but I have a tough time understanding how the average Israeli Jew thinks about Palestinian Arabs. Most friends and acquaintances feel so threatened by what happened on October 7 that they are reluctant to second guess the behavior of the IDF and the Netanyahu unity government. I think that Netanyahu is currently facing two very big problems--the demands of hostage families to prioritize the safety of their loved ones and international pressure, including from the US, to scale back the amount of civilian casualties, which include a great many women and children. Apparently, there are Palestinian women and children being held by Israel, and part of the deal seems to be to exchange them for as many of the Israeli hostages as can be gotten to safety. If the deal does finally get implemented, there may be a chance for the temporary truce to be extended. There is some reporting now that Netanyahu and other hardliners may realize that they have limited time before they will need to ramp down the war and think about what a peace can be like. It is obvious that the Gaza Strip cannot really be ethnically cleansed, nor can the West Bank. So there will need to be some way for Israelis and Palestinians to live in close proximity of each other, whether they like it or not. The Kahanists are just delusional ethnic supremacists. They can only be part of the problem, not the solution.
 
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