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Israel dragging USA down

Tellurian

Active Member
Correct me if I am wrong here, but did not the Israeli's give up the Gaza strip so that peace could be established?

"Give up the Gaza strip"? The Gaza strip did not belong to Israel. It was under Israeli military occupation. Israel ended the occupation because they came to realize that if they tried to annex Gaza it would add millions more Muslim Arabs to the population of Israel bringing the day closer to when the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel. Since no other country was accepting the Palestinians, the Israelis could not deport the Gaza Arabs to any other country, so they would have had to keep Hamas and the other people of Gaza as their own citizens, and the Israelis decided they did not want to do that, so they ended their military occupation of Gaza.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Well, there are exceptions to any rule. My experience comes from going to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. I was not allowed to wear a cross, so I just assumed most everyone was Muslim there.

I want to say that I was treated very well during my stay as a contractor and to date, I have always got along with any Muslims I have encountered state side and over seas.

I am currently reading the Koran and to tell the truth, agree with monotheism and have even considered converting and have not yet decided. I have much more to read and understand before making any decision.
Well go to Egypt, and see the beautiful Coptic Churches.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I have to post it one more time (sorry) because I am truly interested to hear other viewpoints on the issues I brought up. If they're really irrelevent to the conversation, I apologize for repeating them, and I'll get over my confusion shortly I guess.

Kuwait expelled 450,000 Palestinians at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. Prior to that expulsion, Palestinians made up nearly 30 percent of Kuwait's population.

Jordan continues to refuse citizenship applications from Palestinians -they absolutely will not allow a Palestinian to become a citizen, no way, no how. In fact, in the case of Palestinians who have in the past been able to become citizens, their Jordanian citizenship has been REVOKED.

Lebanon greatly restricts the basic rights of Palestinian refugees. They are denied access to Lebanese healthcare. They are not allowed to own property, and have to have special permission to even leave their camp. They are not alllowed to work in most job categories. Amnesty International has decried their treatment repeatedly.

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13 declares that "Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country." Every single Arab League state voted AGAINST this resolution!

The Arab States are no friends to the Palestinians - in part because loosely affiliated people in the Palestine area opposed heavy handed Muslim rule in the 19th century.

In fact, Palestinians have NEVER ruled themselves - they were dominated by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British, then by Jordan and Egypt, and of course Israel.

The "Palestinian Identity" is a fairly new concept, dating back to the early twentieth century. Prior to that time frame, the people living in the Palestine area identified themselves via religious and clan affiliation. In fact, genetically speaking, most Palestinians are descended from Levantine Christians and Jews, though over the centuries many converted to Islam. Before the 1948 war, the term "Palestinian" meant ANYONE from "Palestine," - including Jews living in the area.

The British Census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

In 1968 the Palestine National Council defined "Palestinian" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian."

(Various Wiki articles as source.)

I just thought this was all pretty interesting.

I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.

Great post Kathryn,really its never been about the Palestinian people,for many Arabs its about Arab land,ie Jrusalem being an Islamic Waqf which is something that can never be given up.

After 80 years of being used and snubbed at the same time by its allies one wonders when the penny will drop,IMO the Palestinians are the Masters of their own disaster,it could have been so different and the wrongs inflicted by both sides needn't have occurred and until the Palestinians become true partners in peace there will never be any,shame.
 

Shermana

Heretic
"Give up the Gaza strip"? The Gaza strip did not belong to Israel. It was under Israeli military occupation. Israel ended the occupation because they came to realize that if they tried to annex Gaza it would add millions more Muslim Arabs to the population of Israel bringing the day closer to when the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel. Since no other country was accepting the Palestinians, the Israelis could not deport the Gaza Arabs to any other country, so they would have had to keep Hamas and the other people of Gaza as their own citizens, and the Israelis decided they did not want to do that, so they ended their military occupation of Gaza.

Not necessarily, why did they evacuate all the Jews living there too and not keep it like the "West Bank"? I'm sure you're aware Gaza was relatively prosperous with a 4.5% economic growth rate for a decade straight before they voted in Hamas. Perhaps all that extra wealth made them arrogant and think they could destroy Israel and then dwindled themselves to nothing. Nonetheless, most Gazans actually get by better than people in many other countries. Perhaps if they didn't have a government whose national charter was dedicated to the deaths of every Jew in Israel, there'd be no need for a blockade and things could go back to the relatively wealthy 1995-2005 period.

The population issue is not as much of a dilemma as people think. All Israel has to do is force the rest of the world to accept that Israel has as much right to be a Jewish state with Jewish policies as much as the Arabs have the right to implement an Arabist/Islamist state within their legally held borders. If the Arab citizen population starts to become a problematic democraphic and their voting block becomes at odds with Israel, that's where the concept of an Israeli Constitution must come in. If you call it Apartheid, then you must call every other regime which policies of a minority/Cronyist rule (Syria, Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, Tribal LIbya, UAE, etc) the same thing or accept that Israel has a right to enforce certain inalienable policies to be a Jewish state without internal threat. And even then, the Charedim will breed fast enough to keep apace, they are the only ones who can save Israel's population from imploding anyway. Forcing Jordan to become Palestine as it rightfully should be (being 80% of Palestine) would most certainly fix this. If they refuse to accept Plan Jordan, then Israel should refuse to accept Plan West Bank. Israel should refuse to accept giving the West Bank either way, but Jordan is still 80% of Palestine any day of the week and to say they shouldn't have to be Palestine is sheer bias.

Also, if Palestinian Arabs are to be given Israeli citizenship and compensation, then every single Jewish family and their descendents who escaped from the Arab countries in 1948 and had their $300 billion in property confiscated needs to be addressed as well. Perhaps a simple "placement" exchange in the offending nations could work, relative to their resources and population. Morocco accepts $20 billion in development and 500,000 Arabs, Algeria accepts $30 billion and 1.2m, Libya accepts $40B and takes in 250,000, etc.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
"Give up the Gaza strip"? The Gaza strip did not belong to Israel. It was under Israeli military occupation. Israel ended the occupation because they came to realize that if they tried to annex Gaza it would add millions more Muslim Arabs to the population of Israel bringing the day closer to when the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel. Since no other country was accepting the Palestinians, the Israelis could not deport the Gaza Arabs to any other country, so they would have had to keep Hamas and the other people of Gaza as their own citizens, and the Israelis decided they did not want to do that, so they ended their military occupation of Gaza.

^ This. It seems a good majority of the political opinion and decision makers in Israel recognize the absolute necessity of a Palestinian state to preserve the "Jewish character" of Israel. Unfortunately, public sentiment in Israel seems to make progress on the issue rather difficult. I think your average Joe (or Yosef) in Israel would prefer a somewhat less nuanced approach to maintaining a Jewish majority, to put it mildly.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Not necessarily, why did they evacuate all the Jews living there too and not keep it like the "West Bank"? I'm sure you're aware Gaza was relatively prosperous with a 4.5% economic growth rate for a decade straight before they voted in Hamas. Perhaps all that extra wealth made them arrogant and think they could destroy Israel and then dwindled themselves to nothing. Nonetheless, most Gazans actually get by better than people in many other countries. Perhaps if they didn't have a government whose national charter was dedicated to the deaths of every Jew in Israel, there'd be no need for a blockade and things could go back to the relatively wealthy 1995-2005 period.

The population issue is not as much of a dilemma as people think. All Israel has to do is force the rest of the world to accept that Israel has as much right to be a Jewish state with Jewish policies as much as the Arabs have the right to implement an Arabist/Islamist state within their legally held borders. If the Arab citizen population starts to become a problematic democraphic and their voting block becomes at odds with Israel, that's where the concept of an Israeli Constitution must come in. If you call it Apartheid, then you must call every other regime which policies of a minority/Cronyist rule (Syria, Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, Tribal LIbya, etc) the same thing or accept that Israel has a right to enforce certain inalienable policies to be a Jewish state without internal threat. And even then, the Charedim will breed fast enough to keep apace, they are the only ones who can save Israel's population from imploding anyway. Forcing Jordan to become Palestine as it rightfully should be (being 80% of Palestine) would most certainly fix this. If they refuse to accept Plan Jordan, then Israel should refuse to accept Plan West Bank.

You can't force anybody to accept a one-sided revisionist history and extremist political ideology, thankfully. Because most people are generally reasonable, there will eventually be a Palestinian state and the Palestinians currently living in the occupied territories will get to stay where they are.
 

Shermana

Heretic
You can't force anybody to accept a one-sided revisionist history and extremist political ideology, thankfully. Because most people are generally reasonable, there will eventually be a Palestinian state and the Palestinians currently living in the occupied territories will get to stay where they are.

Calling it one-sided and revisionist is a lie. You are the one who accepts the one-sided revisionist point of view, as I've proven. There will be a Palestinian state in Jordan. Jordan is Palestine and should be the one who becomes the State. Not Judea-Samaria. Anyone who refuses to accept this fact is squarely against the Jews, it's as simple as that. Otherwise, it's a matter of who has the guns and who wins the battle. And that's what it's coming to, and my bets are all on Israel. They have an 8-0 record and it's going to be 9-0 if the Arabs try to pull something.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
Calling it one-sided and revisionist is a lie. You are the one who accepts the one-sided revisionist point of view, as I've proven. There will be a Palestinian state in Jordan. Jordan is Palestine and should be the one who becomes the State. Not Judea-Samaria. Anyone who refuses to accept this fact is squarely against the Jews, it's as simple as that. Otherwise, it's a matter of who has the guns and who wins the battle. And that's what it's coming to, and my bets are all on Israel. They have an 8-0 record and it's going to be 9-0 if the Arabs try to pull something.

Where do you get this stuff, just out of curiosity? It seems very "fringe". I can't find references to your version of history anywhere except that racist blogger you linked to earlier.
 

Shermana

Heretic
truncatedmap.jpg
 

Tellurian

Active Member

That was one PROPOSAL that was made. The actual boundaries set in 1947 can be seen on the map at:

History of Israel: 1947 UN Partition Proposal

Many Israeli terrorists such as Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin refused to accept the borders and were attacking Palestinians and stealing their properties before the state of Israel was established in 1948. It was AFTER the Zionists had invaded across the partition boundaries that the Arabs retaliated to attempt to drive the Zionists back to their own side of the boundaries.

Just like the 1967 Israeli invasion of their neighbors, the propaganda specialists have distorted history to make it look like it was Israel that was attacked instead of Israel attacking the Arab peoples.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I believe the original reason I posted that had something to do with "why Israel must cede Judea-Samaria but Jordan apparently has no obligation to be Palestine or contribute?"

Nice of you calling Ben Gurion a terrorist, hopefully you call Mufti Al-Husseini (who was allied with Hitler) a terrorist as well. Ben Gurion actually fired on the Stern gang, such a terrorist.

When you resort to calling Ben Gurion a terrorist, you better be quick to call every single leader of "Palestine" a terrorist. You are most likely unaware of all the Arab attacks on Jewish territory before 1948, or are deliberately avoiding it which is more likely. You act as if the attacks by Jews were totally unprovoked.

And your idea of the 1967 war is completely devoid of any of the actual facts. Perhaps you're not aware Egypt was about to invade, closed the straits of Tiran (That be a cassus belli there) and Syria was shelling them already. Israel even politely asked Jordan to not get involved and Jordan said "F-you!" Don't you at least find it interesting Israel was able to beat 4 Soviet-backed nations at once without much aid from the USA at the time? (Mostly from France).

However, I can already foresee you calling me a "Propaganda specialist" instead of addressing the actual basic facts.
 
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Tellurian

Active Member
Nice of you calling Ben Gurion a terrorist, hopefully you call Mufti Al-Husseini (who was allied with Hitler) a terrorist as well. Ben Gurion actually fired on the Stern gang, such a terrorist.

David Ben-Gurion quotes

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

David Ben-Gurion quotes (Polish born Israeli Statesman and Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63). Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation, 1886-1973)

And your idea of the 1967 war is completely devoid of any of the actual facts.

Perhaps you have never heard of Operation Focus, the Israeli invasion plans used to start the six day war by attacking its neighbors.

Operation Focus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.
I have said the exact same things on RF, several times, Kathryn, but it never seems to be a big issue. The conversation always returns to how horrible Israel behaves towards the "Palestinians". I am willing to grant that Israel has some work to do to better its relations with Palestinians, but negotiations to lessen the tensions are, necessarily, a two way street.
 

Shermana

Heretic
False quotes is another propaganda tactic Palestinians have resorted to. I dare you to find the source of your own quote.

CAMERA: Exposing False Zionist Quotes II (Quote Busters II)

Media Monitors (Home / World Wide / U.S.A. - Media Monitors Network (MMN))
An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:
[SIZE=-1]We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.[/SIZE]
Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 198
 
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Shermana

Heretic
As for Operation Focus, that was the plan to initiate the war on Israel's terms instead of Egypt's. Smart strategy. I'm assuming by your lack of response on the Straits of Tiran issue you completely agree that was a Cassus Belli on Egypt's part. Not to mention the Radio broadcasts of preparing to invade Israel and the stacking of 100,000 troops on the border. And the Syria shelling. And the Fedayeen attacks. No, there was no back story to Operation Focus whatsoever.
 

Tellurian

Active Member
False quotes is another propaganda tactic Palestinians have resorted to. I dare you to find the source of your own quote.

David Ben-Gurion (1886 – 1973), Prime Minister of Israel (1948 - 1953 and 1955 - 1963)
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

Source: quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Source: May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
another source: Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum".



I know I have never said that, but now it is your turn to reveal the source of your comment. I have been a strong supporter of the Israeli Jews in the liberal peace movements in Israel and around the world. My ex-wife was Jewish. Could you explain your clumsy attempt at spreading your false anti-Semitic smear?
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Alright, I did error in my comparison in that your comment actually is sourced by someone, even if we don't have the initial writing in his lifetime.

As for

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Source: May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
another source: Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum".
The Koenig Memorandum was a private internal government document by a member of the Alignment party. He could have made those quotes up to support his own agenda. That's all where it appears. Even if the quote is authentic, it would have been attestable to a point where the entire Arab population was in fact completely hostile.

And I hope you understand that the 1967 war was only won BECAUSE Israel managed to strike first, denying that the Syrians were shelling Israel already (and allied with Egypt) or that Egypt didn't give a cassus Belli by closing the Tiran straits is just dishonest.

And I wonder if you care if Grand Mufti Al-Husseini was allied with Hitler.
 
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Tellurian

Active Member
Ben-Gurion also made a quote back in 1948 showing that it was the Zionist's intentions to attack Egypt and invade the Sinai. It took almost 20 years before they carried out that plan, but in 1967 the Israeli invasion finally took place.

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai."

David Ben-Gurion, prime-minister of the provisional government of Israel, speaking before the IMF general staff during the 1948 war
 

Shermana

Heretic
during the 1948 war
Miss this part? At the time, the mentality was that the war would drag on until the enemy was defeated in their home countries. This may be strange logic but its how it usually is. Quite a feat to do against multiple large enemies at once, you should give Israel at least credit for that.

I'm sure you're also aware that the Arab countries attacked Israel first.
 
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