Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."

[Rachel Rugelach]

A couple of points about antisemitism...

First, criticism of Israel's government is not antisemitism. However, conflating all Jews with one's criticism of Israel's government is antisemitism.

Which leads us to the problem of philosemitism, which is the second point I wish to make.

"Philosemitism" is generally defined as being "love for the Jewish people" and the opposite of antisemitism, which is generally defined as "hatred for the Jewish people."

Philosemitism becomes a problem, and takes an antisemitic turn, when the self-professed philosemite uses his supposed "love" for the Jewish people to define how he believes a Jew ought to think and behave. (I've seen an example of this here in this thread).

In other words, the self-professed philosemite views himself as the authoritative gatekeeper for the Jewish faith and the Jewish people -- to the extent of believing that he is the judge for deciding who is and who is not a "real Jew." His justification is his professed "love" of the Jewish people; his reasoning is based on his own biases.

When it comes to antisemitism, there is no difference between those who hold Jews collectively responsible for the beliefs and actions of some Jews, and those who collectively define Jews based on the beliefs and actions of some Jews.

To sum this up, I have been given permission to provide a quote here by an Orthodox Rabbi who prefers to identify himself as SF2K01 in his online presence. SF2K01 wrote: "Philosemitism is only a step away from Antisemitism, especially if the Jew fails to live up to the [philosemite's] standard."

 

[metis]

First, criticism of Israel's government is not antisemitism. However, conflating all Jews with one's criticism of Israel's government is antisemitism.

Exactly, and I personally detest Netanyahu and his Likud coalition. However, what happened on 10-7 could not be tolerated, especially with the past history of anti-Semitism that also includes the Holocaust that has left its mark on every Jew worldwide.

The specifics of what happened on the 7th are too nasty to post as even the Israeli public hasn't been officially able to access this. How do I know this? Because a good friend of mine is IDF retired, and he has had access to info even the general public there weren't officially given. However, word spreads.

 

[dybmh]

Generally speaking, both sides are roughly equivalent,

Not even close. All that's needed is to review the Palestinian textbooks and compare them to the Israeli textbooks.

There's a great deal of excellent research in this field spanning multiple years. The Israeli history and civics textbooks approved and distributed by the Israeli Ministry of Education includes the Palestinian perspective, encourages respect for the non-israeli outgroups, and teaches critical self-reflection. Israel is teaching cooperation, compromise, peace making as the ideal which is produced by individual choices.

The Palestinian textbooks are the polar opposite. The entire curriculum top to bottom discourages peace, promotes violence, preaches each Palestinian's duty as blood sacrifice. Woman are encouraged to sacrifice themselves and their children. Zionist's are demons "sinking their fangs in the pure body" of Palestine. Various anti-jewish conspiracy theories are taught as history. Compromise and cooperation are a weakness. This ideology is woven into the entire coursework: even math, even physics. The Palestinian children are being indoctrinated, currently, into a warrior-martyr identity of violent opposition to an imaginary enemy whom they are trained to identify by the star of david.

Israel is raising their children completely differently. Israel does not portray itself as the angel, and does not portray the Palestinians as demons. The Palestinian education system teaches Islamic angelic supremacy, and the Jews are evil to their essence.

While there are no perfect angels nor absolute demons in this or any conflict, there is one side which is consistently working towards peace, and another which is consistently making war. It is most clearly seen in the two opposing educational philosophies, but it is also clearly evident when consulting the historical record.

I have not been following this thread. Perhaps the contributions have falsely portrayed the conflict in terms which are congruent with "the Hatfields vs. the McCoys". I don't know. It's rather common for individuals who are not immersed in the history, religion, culture, and attitudes of the region to take a "safe", albeit false, position sitting on the fence and avoiding taking sides. It's also common for the dishonest anti-israel critics to actively avoid historical data. They absolutely "win" the debate when the discussion is nothing more than lobbing slogans and emotional pleas at those who are lacking information and unlikely to do the work of pursuing the matter in detail.

Winning for the anti-israeli is persuading others that Israel is just as bad as the terrorists who are attacking them. This is naturally appealing to atheists, anti-theists, and the anti-religious who already expect a Jewish State to be destructive.

 

[Revoltingest]

Winning for the anti-israeli is persuading others that Israel is just as bad as the terrorists who are attacking them.

Based upon Israel's oppression, apartheid,
killing, & theft, it's not as bad as the other
terrorists. It's worse.

This is naturally appealing to atheists, anti-theists, and the anti-religious who already expect a Jewish State to be destructive.

Does this mean that Israel's conduct, & excusing
it is "naturally appealing" to Christians & Jews?
I don't expect the Jewish State to be destructive.
It just is.

 

[Copernicus]

...Generally speaking, both sides are roughly equivalent,

Not even close. All that's needed is to review the Palestinian textbooks and compare them to the Israeli textbooks.

Since you quote-mined my post, I'll quote-mine you right back. You took my words out of context, and I did not mean "equivalent" in all respects. There are many differences between Israel-dominated stateless Palestinians forced to live as dependents and fully independent Israelis living under self-rule. Textbooks are not the only difference. My sense of equivalence was clear in context--equivalent in mutual animosity. People who feel themselves weak and without the power to strike at perceived oppressors openly will often resort to asymmetric methods such as terrorism, and Palestinians are not the only ones to do that. Israel, on the other hand, can use more lethal and direct means to settle their scores. Nevertheless, from my perspective, both sides are equivalent in their determination to settle those scores. You must know as well as I that this blood feud between the sides will not end when the current round of violence ends. I have little power to influence US foreign policy, but I would rather that my country not be involved in picking sides in this never-ending cycle of revenge.

 

[Laniakea]

but Zionists are like demons, just look at what they are doing to Gaza

Yeah, eliminating the actual demons. More power to them!

 

[Lyndon]

Yeah, eliminating the actual demons. More power to them!

I suggest you go to Gaza and see just how friendly these zionists are, because you don't seem to be aware of what's going on

 

[dybmh]

but Zionists are like demons, just look at what they are doing to Gaza

Nah, that's a fairy tale constructed by the media you're consuming. I don't doubt it's entertaining for you.

 

[dybmh]

I suggest you go to Gaza and see just how friendly these zionists are, because you don't seem to be aware of what's going on

This is what you will see. Israel is creating a safe space for markets, beyond the grip of the violent extremists. There's a lot of work to do, but, Gaza is not what you are imagining. This is Jan 31 2024.

Without Israel's help, this is what you is seen in Gaza.

 

[dybmh]

never-ending cycle of revenge.

It ends when the false narrative against judaism and the israelis ends. Those who participate in telling those stories and encourage those who do are complicit. From the israeli perspective, it is not revenge. It's practical. It's a matter of survival.

equivalent in mutual animosity.

That's precisely what I wrote about. It is not equivalent in mutual animosity. The israeli government is teaching peace and respect. The Palestinians are teaching hatred, and murder.

 

[dybmh]

Based upon Israel's oppression, apartheid,
killing, & theft, it's not as bad as the other
terrorists. It's worse.

Does this mean that Israel's conduct, & excusing
it is "naturally appealing" to Christians & Jews?
I don't expect the Jewish State to be destructive.
It just is.

If what you wrote were true, you would have a point.

 

[Copernicus]

it is not revenge. It's practical. It's a matter of survival.

No, it isn't. Israel was never in any danger of being destroyed by Hamas terrorists, and it isn't going to be made safer by bombing and destroying innocent people in the Gaza Strip. The retaliation has done little to get the hostages back and even killed some of them. It isn't just about destroying Hamas. It is about payback for the humiliation suffered on October 7, which was very much a part of the violent history of mutual animosity between Palestinians and Israelis going back to the British occupation.

The israeli government is teaching peace and respect. The Palestinians are teaching hatred, and murder.

Sure. That must be why both sides employ such violence against each other. Each side teaching the other lessons of peace and respect.

 

[Laniakea]

I suggest you go to Gaza and see just how friendly these zionists are, because you don't seem to be aware of what's going on

Maybe after we pay to rebuild everything.

 

[Revoltingest]

t's practical. It's a matter of survival.

I still find amazing the degree of dissociation from
reality & humanity that religion & nationalism that
can afflict people. It leads to the most heinous crimes.

 

[dybmh]

No, it isn't. Israel was never in any danger of being destroyed by Hamas terrorists,

Hamas is one of approx 10 violent extremist organizations operating in Gaza. Iran is funding and training many of them.

and it isn't going to be made safer by bombing and destroying innocent people in the Gaza Strip.

That's an argument from ignorance. Unless you can describe the circumstances of what has been destroyed, who was killed, how they were killed, and why, the assumption that you have accepted as fact is without merit.

The retaliation has done little to get the hostages back and even killed some of them.

ignorance

It isn't just about destroying Hamas.

more ignorance

It is about payback for the humiliation suffered on October 7,

Maybe that's all that "makes sense" to you, but, that doesn't make it true.

which was very much a part of the violent history of mutual animosity between Palestinians and Israelis going back to the British occupation.

The violent history began before the British mandate: 1836 in Safed, 1886 Petach Tikvah, and many others. Arabs attacking the jewish "out-group". There's a lot of history that you're missing.

Sure. That must be why both sides employ such violence against each other. Each side teaching the other lessons of peace and respect.

The violence is directed at israel, then israel reacts. The objective is to eliminate a clear and present danger. There are "rifles" pointed at their citizens held by individuals who have killed before and have sworn to kill again. Those "rifles" need to be removed. How that happens is military matter which you clearly do not understand.

 

[Copernicus]

Hamas is one of approx 10 violent extremist organizations operating in Gaza. Iran is funding and training many of them.

The lot of them never had the firepower to take down Israel, so it is ridiculous to claim that they posed an existential threat to Israel. The fact is that the fools and idiots leading the Likud government, having allowed Hamas to grow stronger and then letting its guard down against such an attack, are more of a threat to Israel. They have managed to singlehandedly turn much of the world against Israel because of its unhinged reaction to a terrorist attack that they could and should have prevented.

That's an argument from ignorance. Unless you can describe the circumstances of what has been destroyed, who was killed, how they were killed, and why, the assumption that you have accepted as fact is without merit.

ignorance...
more ignorance...
Maybe that's all that "makes sense" to you, but, that doesn't make it true.

I don't claim any special knowledge greater than what I read in the press, and I doubt that you are better informed. Ad hominem responses require no further response other than to point out how ineffective they are in rebutting claims you disagree with.

The violent history began before the British mandate: 1836 in Safed, 1886 Petach Tikvah, and many others. Arabs attacking the jewish "out-group". There's a lot of history that you're missing.

There is a lot of history that both of us are missing, and this completely misses the point. The ethnic cleansing exercise brought about by Plan Dalet is what really led to the creation of the ethnocentric state of Israel, because it created a massive number of refugees thirsting for revenge and payback. That plan grew out of ethnic tensions that preceded it, but it was still the tipping point that led to this decades-long blood feud with the stateless Palestinian populations kept in poverty and lack of opportunity for advancement.

The violence is directed at israel, then israel reacts. The objective is to eliminate a clear and present danger. There are "rifles" pointed at their citizens held by individuals who have killed before and have sworn to kill again. Those "rifles" need to be removed. How that happens is military matter which you clearly do not understand.

Oh, I understand perfectly well how a violent suppression of the terrorists can lead to a pause in the violence. What I don't understand is how that ends the thirst for payback and revenge among Palestinians and those who support them in the Middle East. Take away those guns, and new ones will eventually replace them. Neither Gaza nor the West Bank is going to be ethnically cleansed of Palestinians, but, even if that could happen, the refugees would still exist in neighboring regions and still remain fertile ground for terrorists. There is no military solution to this problem, but the attempt to solve it that way only guarantees its return in the future. My position is that America has no constructive role to play in the region, if it is just going to ensure that one side is kept supplied with weapons to use against the other side. What we achieve with that policy is shared blame for what Israel manages to do with those weapons. Israel has to solve this problem on its own. It will accept our weapons, but not our advice. The current government doesn't want a two-state solution, just the ability to keep doing what it has been doing for decades. Fine. Maybe fewer weapons would help them rethink their strategy.

 

[metis]

They have managed to singlehandedly turn much of the world against Israel because of its unhinged reaction to a terrorist attack that they could and should have prevented.

Because of hypocrisy. If your village was attacked and terrorized; your daughter gang raped; your son taken as a hostage; and missiles being fired at your village, what do you suggest doing?

 

[Ebionite]

From the israeli perspective, it is not revenge. It's practical. It's a matter of survival.

This is the same argument that Caiaphas used for the attempted murder of Yeshua.

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
John 11:49-50

This was one of the factors which led to destruction of the second temple.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The ethnic cleansing exercise brought about by Plan Dalet is what really led to the creation of the ethnocentric state of Israel, because it created a massive number of refugees thirsting for revenge and payback.

Good grief.

 

[Copernicus]

They have managed to singlehandedly turn much of the world against Israel because of its unhinged reaction to a terrorist attack that they could and should have prevented.

Because of hypocrisy. If your village was attacked and terrorized; your daughter gang raped; your son taken as a hostage; and missiles being fired at your village, what do you suggest doing?

I don't see what that has to do with hypocrisy. It's a gut level reaction. You want revenge and payback in such cases. That is a perfectly human response. Go terrorize the other person's village. Commit rape against them. Take them hostage. See how that makes them feel.

Of course, now you have other people in that village who didn't attack your village, and you've killed their families and committed atrocities against them. Should they just restrain themselves from having the same gut level reaction against you because "they started it!"? Is that how civilization works in an age where any individual can commit mass destruction with the right weapons? Where does it end?

But this situation cannot be reduced to just one village of angry primates suddenly attacking another for no discernable reason. The reality is that there has been a long history of mutual destruction--brutal attacks, dead and injured victims, impoverishment, property and land stolen, etc. October 7 was about revenge and payback for what happened in the past. Israel's response was about revenge and payback for what happened on October 7. The Likud-dominated government has managed to turn much of the world's opinion against Israel and its US backers. Inside the US, the controversy generated by our no-strings supply of weapons for Israel has lost a great deal of public support, especially with all of the new reports of atrocities. For example:

More than 100 killed as Israeli forces open fire in chaos at Gaza food lines, Palestinian health ministry says​