Israel Palestine Conflict?

[Dingbat]

Imam Muhammad ibn Ismâ`îl al-Bukhârî. I am of course just kidding. No matter what name I reply with, you will reject it. You might even have the post ready and waiting with a blank slot for the name. I have not refused anything. No one asked. To be honest I would have refused, and intentionally did not post his name but your accusation is incorrect.

I have recently determined to not be drawn into any personal discussions that make use of sarcasm of offensive language for a while. I have reacted to sarcasm with sarcasm here recently and that does not reflect my values. I am going to avoid debates with people who I have had recent cross words with and you are one. It has resulted in threads being closed and that does not advance debate. I will send the name to you in a PM if you wish but first I have fumbled my way around my server and I wanted to take a look at the Guy in the video. He is definately not the same person I mentioned.

So you don't actually have a name and you are simply propagating hate on my dime it seems since you work with the DoD. Gotcha. Guess a few decades ago it would have been you promoting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Some things never change with the Christian Right.

 

[1robin]

So you don't actually have a name and you are simply propagating hate on my dime it seems since you work with the DoD. Gotcha. Guess a few decades ago it would have been you promoting The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Some things never change with the Christian Right.

My Lord you are one bitter person. First I said I would give you the name in a PM so so much for that garbage. Second if you do not like the fact I help build the most successful fighter aircraft in human history then you will really not like the fact that I am a veteran of the first Gulf war. Third I do not care what you believe from the Davinci Code, I do not subscribe. I can see this is getting no where as usual and is circling the rhetorical drain so I am out.

 

[Dingbat]

My Lord you are one bitter person. First I said I would give you the name in a PM so so much for that garbage. Second if you do not like the fact I help build the most successful fighter aircraft in human history then you will really not like the fact that I am a veteran of the first Gulf war. Third I do not care what you believe from the Davinci Code, I do not subscribe. I can see this is getting no where as usual and is circling the rhetorical drain so I am out.

Still have not provided a single source nor am I impressed that you spend so much time spewing anti-Islamic rhetoric on my dime. Though it does explain why we need to cut such an overbloated defense budget if you have so much time on your hands to spread vile rhetoric here. Please post the name and prove you actually have a point instead of the endless cycle of temper tantrums you throw when pressed for information.

 

[FearGod]

I mixed wires it wasn't the GOP convention but a conservative convention held in support of Romney and Friends.

[youtube]j2kyIx0DYf8[/youtube]

Waw,he was a good actor but ridiculous and i like the TV Commentator in the way he exposed him and i think there is no difference between such cheap person claiming that he was a muslim and some others whom describing one religion as the antichrist.

 

[Dingbat]

Waw,he was a good actor but ridiculous and i like the TV Commentator in the way he exposed him and i think there is no difference between such cheap person claiming that he was a muslim and some others whom describing one religion as the antichrist.

There is a lot of money to be made in the market of Islamophobic agitprop that is for sure. I agree there is not much difference between that fellow and other posters who use ridiculous arguments such as Islam is an antichrist organization. When did Islam become an organization anyways? I don't seem to remember any kind of episcopal structure at all.

 

[Lady B]

Fear God, Dingbat and Lover of truth , hi guys! As I have had many great discussions with all 3 of you in the past and I respect your minds ,I would like to challenge you somewhat, if I may?
May I ask you how you all specifically would like to see this conflict resolved? Lets play pretend for a moment and each of you are made king for a day, ruler of the middle east all powers have been given to you and all responsibility for success or failure ( pssst.I know it seems silly but work with me here..)
here are the presups:
what will you command to both sides in order to settle this once and for all ? If you divide lands, show us the lines, if you decide one side leave Israel completely, tell us the land you will give them to go.

What do you see is fair for all ? And why is it fair? Feel free to use your religion as your guide.

And how would you go about in implementing your ideas today at this very hour? Which side would you approach first and how would you approach it, military or peacefully?

I am not limiting this challenge to these alone but I am looking for a Muslim or Palestinian empathizers view only right now please. soooo.. Any takers?

 

[Dingbat]

Fear God, Dingbat and Lover of truth , hi guys! As I have had many great discussions with all 3 of you in the past and I respect your minds ,I would like to challenge you somewhat, if I may?
May I ask you how you all specifically would like to see this conflict resolved? Lets play pretend for a moment and each of you are made king for a day, ruler of the middle east all powers have been given to you and all responsibility for success or failure ( pssst.I know it seems silly but work with me here..)
here are the presups:
what will you command to both sides in order to settle this once and for all ? If you divide lands, show us the lines, if you decide one side leave Israel completely, tell us the land you will give them to go.

What do you see is fair for all ? And why is it fair? Feel free to use your religion as your guide.

And how would you go about in implementing your ideas today at this very hour? Which side would you approach first and how would you approach it, military or peacefully?

I am not limiting this challenge to these alone but I am looking for a Muslim or Palestinian empathizers view only right now please. soooo.. Any takers?

My goal is peace and an equitable peace at that. All I know that it would entail is a two state solution and I think the best case for making it stable would be to have Israel economic involvement with the building up of Palestinian infrastructure. I don't know what you could do border wise but maybe go with the UN suggestion? I don't honestly know without asking the people involved and high level diplomats.

I have always favored a two state solution and still do but both sides need to stop screaming and come to the negotiating table. There is no reason either side can't talk it out but it requires compassion from all sides to make it work. In the end it is innocent people that pay the price for rhetoric and violence not the people who instigate it. I wish the situation was simple I really do but I honestly don't know how it can be fixed without both sides agreeing to actual discussions.

 

[Lady B]

My goal is peace and an equitable peace at that. All I know that it would entail is a two state solution and I think the best case for making it stable would be to have Israel economic involvement with the building up of Palestinian infrastructure. I don't know what you could do border wise but maybe go with the UN suggestion? I don't honestly know without asking the people involved and high level diplomats.

I have always favored a two state solution and still do but both sides need to stop screaming and come to the negotiating table. There is no reason either side can't talk it out but it requires compassion from all sides to make it work. In the end it is innocent people that pay the price for rhetoric and violence not the people who instigate it. I wish the situation was simple I really do but I honestly don't know how it can be fixed without both sides agreeing to actual discussions.

awsome answer Dingbat ! so you would devide Israel equally between the two sides, ok, but I think both sides want certain Holy sites vital to their religion, how would you handle this?

 

[Dingbat]

awsome answer Dingbat ! so you would devide Israel equally between the two sides, ok, but I think both sides want certain Holy sites vital to their religion, how would you handle this?

That is the problem I don't know how you fix a lot of these issues as the whole place is a mess in this regard. Reminds me of a lecture I attended by Dr. Aslam Abdullah who stated it seems the Holy Land requires a large amount of blood and Christians, Jews, and Muslims seem eager to forever appease it. Part of me really likes the idea of Jerusalem being an open city and allowing free access to all. The Holy Land has significance for many of the Abrahamic faiths and it seems a shame that this constant fighting isn't allowing what could really be a booming tourist market. The thing is while I love the idea of Jerusalem being an open city it isn't very realistic either. If it was up to me humanity would just be forced to hug it out while listening to Peace Train.

 

[Lady B]

That is the problem I don't know how you fix a lot of these issues as the whole place is a mess in this regard. Reminds me of a lecture I attended by Dr. Aslam Abdullah who stated it seems the Holy Land requires a large amount of blood and Christians, Jews, and Muslims seem eager to forever appease it. Part of me really likes the idea of Jerusalem being an open city and allowing free access to all. The Holy Land has significance for many of the Abrahamic faiths and it seems a shame that this constant fighting isn't allowing what could really be a booming tourist market. The thing is while I love the idea of Jerusalem being an open city it isn't very realistic either. If it was up to me humanity would just be forced to hug it out while listening to Peace Train.

Yea well at least your heart is in the right place even if it isn't realistic I have a girlish notion that baking both sides cookies with a notecard signed peace should work, but reality steps in and sees both sides blowing up my cookies and suspecting terrorism must be involved eeek!
Perhaps that is why I never went into politics, 'cookie peace utilizers' are still not accepted as a political party

 

[FearGod]

Fear God, Dingbat and Lover of truth , hi guys! As I have had many great discussions with all 3 of you in the past and I respect your minds ,I would like to challenge you somewhat, if I may?
May I ask you how you all specifically would like to see this conflict resolved? Lets play pretend for a moment and each of you are made king for a day, ruler of the middle east all powers have been given to you and all responsibility for success or failure ( pssst.I know it seems silly but work with me here..)
here are the presups:
what will you command to both sides in order to settle this once and for all ? If you divide lands, show us the lines, if you decide one side leave Israel completely, tell us the land you will give them to go.

What do you see is fair for all ? And why is it fair? Feel free to use your religion as your guide.

And how would you go about in implementing your ideas today at this very hour? Which side would you approach first and how would you approach it, military or peacefully?

I am not limiting this challenge to these alone but I am looking for a Muslim or Palestinian empathizers view only right now please. soooo.. Any takers?

Thank you Lady B for your kind words.

The best solution is one nation to consist of the 3 religions (christians,jews,muslims) and to separate religion from state,so by election,the president and government can be consisting of christians,muslims and jews.

The next step is to teach them how to love their nation eventhough that they have different beliefs and to teach them how to respect each other religion.

You know Lady B,that could easily happen,but the problem is with politicians and their greeds to control the land.

Turkish PM Says Gaza War Netanyahu Election Ploy

and who will pay for it,innocents from both sides and a huge money will be spent from other countries as support for both sides (for the greedy politicians),Crazy world.

 

[Lady B]

Thank you Lady B for your kind words.

The best solution is one nation to consist of the 3 religions (christians,jews,muslims) and to separate religion from state,so by election,the president and government can be consisting of christians,muslims and jews.

The next step is to teach them how to love their nation eventhough that they have different beliefs and to teach them how to respect each other religion.

You know Lady B,that could easily happen,but the problem is with politicians and their greeds to control the land.

Turkish PM Says Gaza War Netanyahu Election Ploy

and who will pay for it,innocents from both sides and a huge money will be spent from other countries as support for both sides (for the greedy politicians),Crazy world.

It sounds like USA to me while I wish all countries be this openminded,and tolerant I have yet to see it implemented in any Islamic country have you? Egypt was seemingly close in theory at least, and still could be someday, Dubai also seems to be a great deal more tolerant then most, but do you really feel a democratic society is a realistic goal in an islamic majority?

 

[Dingbat]

It sounds like USA to me while I wish all countries be this openminded,and tolerant I have yet to see it implemented in any Islamic country have you? Egypt was seemingly close in theory at least, and still could be someday, Dubai also seems to be a great deal more tolerant then most, but do you really feel a democratic society is a realistic goal in an islamic majority?

Indonesia and Turkey come to mind. Indonesia just ousted all its Islamist parties in the most recent election.

 

[Lady B]

Indonesia and Turkey come to mind. Indonesia just ousted all its Islamist parties in the most recent election.

Really? wow I am really shocked, do you have a link I could read on that? I have been so focused on Egypt and Israel I havn't even looked at Indonesia in so long.

 

[Dingbat]

Really? wow I am really shocked, do you have a link I could read on that? I have been so focused on Egypt and Israel I havn't even looked at Indonesia in so long.

Indonesia Islamic Parties in Decline - Asia-Pacific - News - OnIslam.net

 

[Shermana]

Indonesia and Turkey come to mind. Indonesia just ousted all its Islamist parties in the most recent election.

Turkey is arguably going more Islamist away from Ataturk's vision.

Look how they are arresting this internationally famous pianist for his anti-Islamic tweets.

Rubin Reports » This Week, Turkey Went a Long Way Toward Becoming an Islamic Republic

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/199921

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Hello tranquil servant. I agree with a lot of what you said here but your take on God's choosing the Hebrews is incorrect. God chose Abraham because he believed God. He made a covenant with him and his descendants through Isaac. He also made a covenant with his son Ishmael. The difference is that Isaac's covenant was what I think Hebrews called the right hand blessing (main blessing). The one through Ishmael because he was illegitimate was the left hand (secondary blessing). The nation of Israel that God would call his children and establish his special covenant with was through Isaac.

Yes....and the special covenant God made with the nation of Israel began with Abraham because it would be through the lineage conceived by Abraham and Sarah that the Messiah would arrive. God made covenants with several Prophets. Some were conditional and others were unconditional; the most important being the unconditional covenant God made with his chosen concerning the coming Messiah and atonement.

These descendants were both fortunate and unfortunate because of the covenant. They had direct access or special access to God but were held to a higher standard than any other group.
The relationship was not a reward for their behavior. None of them existed when God made the covenant with Abraham. There are of course all kinds of details and times of obedience and times of rebellion but it all started with Abraham. That gets us all the way through the OT.

Like I mentioned above..depending on the conditions of the covenant (which is basically an agreement or a promise), some privileges were rewards for their behavior (Deuteronomy 30). God would keep the covenant concerning the Messiah no matter what; the same covenant that began with Abraham.

I do not debate or support predestination if that is part of what you are hinting at. I do not see any direct connection between a symbolic or literal man wrestling with God and salvation. Christ says over and over we must have faith and be born again. That if we believe we are saved and if we do not we are condemned already. I also reject any works based salvation as non Biblical, irrational, and impossible. It is by his merit not mine that I hope to see heaven. I also reject works salvation.

One who believes in God also believes he is all-knowing, wise, and has an ultimate plan or Will that will be done. I do believe the Old Testament has many symbolic examples which coincide and give light to the New Testament; like the story of Abraham being tested by God in Genesis 22. The connection I see is that of Man (or Humans) struggling to resist the temptation of sin and fighting against the forces of this condemned earth in order to stay on the right path of God...
Mark 14:38
Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.
Also, anyone can say they believe they are save and may even believe it but if we don't show that we believe then what good does that do? We have to show God we believe in him with our actions; by trying to refrain from sin. It's like cheating spouses who say and believe they love their significant other but continue to be unfaithful.
Remember what Christ said to the women who was almost stoned to death...
John 8:10-12
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
AND
John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
AND
John 8:34
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Also, what the Apostle Paul said..
Romans 12:1
[ Living Sacrifices ] Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

New International Version (©1984)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I'm not implying salvation is a reward for good behavior. I know all sin and fall short of the Glory of God and I also know what we may consider good or right may not be in the eyes of God but at the same time the Holy name and blood of Christ are not a free pass to continue to sin..
James 2:18-24
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

To Be Continued on another post...

 

[Tranquil Servant]

To Be Continued on another post...

God's Covenant With Abraham
In making a covenant with Abraham, God promised to bless his descendants and make them His own special people -- in return, Abraham was to remain faithful to God and to serve as a channel through which God's blessings could flow to the rest of the world (Gen. 12:1-3).
http://www.padfield.com/2004/covenants.html

This is what you've said..
"God chose Abraham because he believed God." AND...
"The relationship was not a reward for their behavior." THEN you say...
"God promised to bless his descendants and make them His own special people -- in return, Abraham was to remain faithful to God..."
From what you've stated, I understand this to mean that because Abraham showed faith towards God--in return God made the special covenant with him under the condition that he remain faithful to God so in a sense it is a reward for his behavior.

What is it that you are using these verses to show? I believe this refers to NT times when every true believer is united to God by virtue of being born again. Not symbolically or through ceremony but by the Holy Spirit that comes to live with every believer at the moment of new birth.

I never mentioned anything about a ceremony but I am Glad you said the verse refers to NT times because notice how God still uses the term "house of Israel" Let's look at the verse again..
Jeremiah 31:33
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
If you do believe this verse refers to NT times, then the "house of Israel" doesn't apply exclusively to Jews because as we Know, the people to accept Christ were primarily gentiles. Plus, anyone who accepts Christ is included in this covenant; not just Jews so I see this as being symbolic. I also believe we are reborn and united with God by being anointed with the Holy Spirit (literally; not symbolically) but don't we Baptize to symbolize the cleansing and rebirth? (sounds like a ceremony to me)

Well you certainly quoted a lot of scripture but you never mentioned what you are attempting to show. Without knowing what you are claiming these mean and why I can't agree or disagree. I have no idea what your trying to say here. I would be very interested in some clarification.

I was trying to say that God doesn't favor one race over another; rather he favors those who obey, worship, and have faith in him and the chosen were chosen since the beginning.

God had already selected Abraham's descendants before they even existed.

The chosen have their names written in the book of life and are those who follow him by obeying, worshiping, and having faith in him.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,..

In summary

1. I believe the Jewish people are still the chosen people. However that does not have any heaven and hell ramifications directly

...So, chosen in what sense? why do you believe they are still chosen if most of them reject Christ?

2. I believe that all believers born again through faith in Christ are what is known as the spiritual kingdom of God and that this does have direct heaven and hell relevance.

Are the Prophets of the Old Testament part of this spiritual kingdom?

 

[Pastek]

The best solution is one nation to consist of the 3 religions (christians,jews,muslims) and to separate religion from state,so by election,the president and government can be consisting of christians,muslims and jews.

The next step is to teach them how to love their nation eventhough that they have different beliefs and to teach them how to respect each other religion.

It would have been the best thing to do when jews came to Palestine after the WW2.

But i think that's now, it's unrealistic so the best choice is 2 separate nations.
And Jerusalem divided between them.

 

[Desert Snake]

It would have been the best thing to do when jews came to Palestine after the WW2.

But i think that's now, it's unrealistic so the best choice is 2 separate nations.
And Jerusalem divided between them.

And the citizenry would have to move to their respective religious areas?