Israel Palestine Conflict?

[esmith]

Was following this ongoing story on another forum and a poster came on saying that the IDF lost a warship, a drone, an F-16 and a helicopter. When pressed about facts about the ship loss they provided a picture obtained from an Iranian news outlet (IRIB) in Germany. One of the members examined the picture and came to the conclusion that the ship in question appeared to be a "target ship". They followed the clues and found out that it was actually a decommissioned Australian ship that was used for target practice. Hopefully the OP realizes that there is going to be a lot of negative propaganda generated by anti-Israel sources.

 

[sandandfoam]

I had to subscribe to read the whole thing myself.

The guy this blog and the article are referring to remind me of Jane Fonda in her hay day. Everything Israel does is wrong and the citizens just aren't willing to admit it.

Is that fair?
I claim no expertise on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. My sympathies would tend to lie with Israel but I think it is proper that citizens everywhere be critical of governments everywhere and my gut reaction is that those who would be critical of governement and strive for peace by peaceful methods deserve to have their arguyments engaged with on the level of their arguments. Do you disagree?

 

[1robin]

Israel has to be very careful, if it is too heavy handed with the Palestinians it could lose Zionist Protestant support in the West and atheists etc, also anger Catholics and Orthodox not to mention the billion plus Muslims around the world. It will just have to feud with the Palestinians until a superpower takes control of the situation. Israel is where Jesus was born so don't the Christians have a stake in it too? The pope could order another Crusade LOL.

That sounds good. Let's have another children’s crusade and send all the kids between 9 and 15. Of course the way Hamas fights they might actually win this time instead of getting bored and giving up. As a Christian I do support Israel but even if I wasn't I would support them anyway because they have by far acted more honorably than their neighbors in the region.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you Jay. Isn't there an election coming in Israel? Is that a factor?

Yes, yes, and - to answer the unwritten question - I am not sure of its weight or impact. I suspect the current engagement will enhance Netanyahu's position so long as the engagement is not a protracted one.

 

[Caladan]

Well ... here is something from the other side..
Israeli newspaper: Israel attacked Gaza knowing truce was in the works

And al-Sharq al-Aswat the most widely read Arabic newspaper claims this conflict was initiated by Syria and Iran in order to divert attention from what is happening in Syria. In the past week or more there were daily occurrences of fire spilling into Israel from Syria. Mortar rounds at towns, bullets at soldiers.

Link: The solution to Gaza…return to Syria!

 

[Caladan]

I wish you well.

Much appreciated stephen.

Following your time in the military must you remain a reservist Dan?

Yes, I'm still a reservist. But I wasn't one of the soldiers who got a call yet, although some of my friends did.

 

[loverOfTruth]

And al-Sharq al-Aswat the most widely read Arabic newspaper claims this conflict was initiated by Syria and Iran in order to divert attention from what is happening in Syria. In the past week or more there were daily occurrences of fire spilling into Israel from Syria. Mortar rounds at towns, bullets at soldiers.

Link: The solution to Gaza…return to Syria!

Then Israel should have attacked Syria/Iran - why attack Gaza ? What a lame excuse...

 

[jazzymom]

I'm confused about how this recent strike started.

It is clear that the ongoing rocket fire from Gaza over a long period of time is one of the reasons that Israel is taking the actions.

Hamas has sent many many rockets into civilian areas over the last few months.

No country will continue to allow groups from the outside to continue to send rockets into a sovereign nation without reacting.

Israel has a right to self defense.

 

[jazzymom]

Then Israel should have attacked Syria/Iran - why attack Gaza ? What a lame excuse...

Gaza has targeted civilian populations for months now. Israel disengaged from Gaza years ago and now Gaza has built up its armaments in heavily populated areas and continues to send rockets into Israel.

Israel has a right to self defense and once hamas stops the militants from sending rockets into Israel then there will be no need to Israel to take action.

Every country in the world has a right to self defense and as a sovereign nation Israel has a right to self defense.

Hamas is getting more sophisticated weapons that can cause more damage and is being supported by Iran.

STOP THE HAMAS ROCKET FIRE NOW!!!!!!

 

[loverOfTruth]

It is clear that the ongoing rocket fire from Gaza over a long period of time is one of the reasons that Israel is taking the actions.

Hamas has sent many many rockets into civilian areas over the last few months.

No country will continue to allow groups from the outside to continue to send rockets into a sovereign nation without reacting.

Israel has a right to self defense.

And any nation is supposed to continue to allow groups from outside to continue to occupy their sovereign lands without reacting ?

And in case you didn't know what occupation means :

"Occupation means the Israeli military has total authority over every aspect of Palestinian life. In addition, Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of its own citizens in these lands, in defiance of international law. " [1]

"Palestinians in these regions have no guarantee of civil rights. They have no government of their own other than what Israel will allow. Israel can impose total curfews on any part or all of the territory. This prevents people from traveling to work, to market or to see family members. It can prevent medical care from reaching people, and people from reaching hospitals." [1]

[1]http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101

 

[Caladan]

Then Israel should have attacked Syria/Iran - why attack Gaza ? What a lame excuse...

A lame excuse made by the editor in chief of al-Sharq al-Aswat, no less.
And why to they attack Hamas and the Islamic Jihad in Gaza? the answer is very simple, so long as rockets keep coming down on Israeli towns, and Israeli soldiers are ambushed of course it's the responsibility of the Israeli security forces to deal with it and keep Israel's sovereignty intact.

 

[jazzymom]

And any nation is supposed to continue to allow groups from outside to continue to occupy their sovereign lands without reacting ?

And in case you didn't know what occupation means :

"Occupation means the Israeli military has total authority over every aspect of Palestinian life. In addition, Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of its own citizens in these lands, in defiance of international law. " [1]

"Palestinians in these regions have no guarantee of civil rights. They have no government of their own other than what Israel will allow. Israel can impose total curfews on any part or all of the territory. This prevents people from traveling to work, to market or to see family members. It can prevent medical care from reaching people, and people from reaching hospitals." [1]

[1]http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101

Gaza has a blockade to keep weapons out and to curtail their ability to make and shoot rockets into Israel.

Israel left Gaza years ago and now face more rockets then they ever did.

So when the rockets stop and hamas lays down its weapons and stops the militants there will be no need for a blockade.

Israel did not wake up one morning and decide to go after the militants. Israel has been living with ongoing rocket fire for months now.

Hamas has control over Gaza and as the leaders has the power to stop the rockets. They have made little to no effort to stop the rocket fire.

So Gaza is not occupied, and when the rockets stop and they show they will not continue to attack Israel the blockade will end.

Any country has a right to self defense and the blockade is legal.

Hamas is the aggressor and absolutely is causing this provocation.

If you don't want to get stung don't put you hand in the hornets nest then cry foul and unfair.

If you don't want Israel to come after you don't shoot rockets into Israel civilian areas.

Israel as any other sovereign nation has a right to self defense.

 

[1robin]

And any nation is supposed to continue to allow groups from outside to continue to occupy their sovereign lands without reacting ?

So I guess the American Indians should start shooting rockets at Washington even though they (and I am one) are now infinately better off than they ever were under self rule. Maybe the Aztecs should go back to cutting the hearts out of their neighbors again to spite the Spanish. Israel has as much and more claim to the land as anyone there. It is less than 2% of the middle east yet they do more with the 2% in many ways than the rest of the middle east does with it's 98% which includes all the oil.

ISRAEL​

Statistics:

• Israel is 1/6 of 1% of the land mass of the Middle East.
• Israel is roughly half the size of Lake Michigan, or New Jersey.
• Israel’s population is ½ the size of metro New York. Only 2% of the Middle East population.
• Israel has none of the valuable resources of Oil, natural gas, or coal that the rest of the Middle East is covered up with.
• Hebrew is the only case in history where a completely dead language was revived.

ACCOPLISHMENT OF THIS TINY NATION​

• Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees per person in the world.
• Israel produces more published scientific papers per person than any other nation.
• They have the highest number of scientists and technicians per capita of any other nation.
• They have the highest number of engineers per capita in the world.
• They have the highest number of PhD’s per capita in the world.
• They have the highest number of physicians per person of any nation.
• Israel has the highest percentage of its workforce involved in technical areas than any other nation.
• Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation in the world per capita.
• It is the only country in the Middle East where Christian, Muslims and Jews are free to vote.
• It is the only country in the Middle East where women enjoy full political rights.
• They have the largest number of startup companies per capita in the world.
• They have the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies except for the US and Canada.
• Israel has the highest concentration of high tech companies outside Silicon Valley in the world.
• The cell phone was invented in Israel.
• Voice mail began there.
• IBM’s first PC had an Israeli chip.
• They developed the first anti-virus software.
• Most of Windows NT and XP were developed in Israel.
• The Pentium 4 and Centrino processors were entirely designed and produced in Israel as well as Pentium MMX Chip technology..
• Israel has the highest number of PCs per person in the world.
• They were the first Middle Eastern country to launch a satellite.
• They have more museums, more orchestras, and read more books per person than any other nation on earth.
• The most unrestricted free Arabic press is in Israel.
• Israel has the world’s finest airline security system.
• Their dairy cows produce more milk per cow by far than any other countries. (I know this isn’t that important but I listed it because it reminds me of that scripture that talks about how Israel will be a agricultural star in the end times)
• They have more in-vitro fertilizations per capita than any other nation. And it’s free.
• Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all its immediate neighbors combined.
• Israel has the highest average living standard of any country in the Middle East. The average income level is more than twice its neighbors in the region even though their neighbors are swimming in oil and they are not.
• Israel was the first country in the world to reject conflict diamonds.
• They developed the first camera small enough to be ingested for medical procedures.
• I’m getting bored but there is much more.

They did all this after having to start over again from scratch in 1948 all the while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under the strain of having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth. It is their enemy who say that Israel does not have a right to exist not the other way around. Imagine if we said no Arabian nation has the right to exist and proceeded to rally all the western nations to obliterate them.

WHO IS IT THAT OPPOSES THIS TINY INDUSTRIOUS NATION, ISRAEL​

• Morocco, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Somalia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen. These are just the ones that are overtly hostile to Israel and in close proximity.
• They control 13.5 million square km to Israel’s 20 thousand Km.
• They have 292 million people to Israel’s 5 million.
• A famous Arab is quoted as saying “If the Moslems laid down there arms today there would be peace tomorrow”. “If the Israelis laid down their weapons today there would be no Israel tomorrow”
• Jews have inhabited Israel continuously for 3,000 plus years. They are the only nation on earth that still speaks the same language, occupies the same land, and worships the same God that it did 3000 years ago.
• There has never been a Palestinian nation, a distinct Palestinian language or culture.
• The Jews have welcomed and incorporated Arabian refugees, but the Jewish refugees in Arabian countries are the only group of refugees in history that have not been accepted in countries which they exist even after three generations.
• Under Jordanian rule Jewish holy sites were systematically destroyed and they were denied access. Under Jewish control all Jewish, Christian, and Muslim sites are preserved and open to anyone to visit.

What is it that drives nations that control 99.9% of the land mass and all the great natural resources to start and embarrassingly loose 4 wars and many battles? Is there any conceivable honorable reason, or is it spiritual, jealousy, or just plain (racist hatred).

I have not verified every one of these claims but have verified and found reliable every single one that has been challanged.

"Palestinians in these regions have no guarantee of civil rights. They have no government of their own other than what Israel will allow. Israel can impose total curfews on any part or all of the territory. This prevents people from traveling to work, to market or to see family members. It can prevent medical care from reaching people, and people from reaching hospitals."

This is quite rediculous. Israel has next to no influence in Gaza. If they did Hamas would not have taken over. In a graph where Israel's grants of land is plotted against Arabic violence there is a direct correlation. Every time Israel gives away land or anything else they captured the last time they were attacked it is used to attack them the next time. The Palestinians living in Israel have a much higher standard of living than they would have anywhere else.

​

​

 

[jazzymom]

The conflict started by Israeli attack which killed one of Hamas military chiefs

Hamas military chief killed in Gaza air strike - Telegraph

'Israel-Gaza Conflict: Gates Of Hell' [Norman Finkelstein, Dan Pollak And Harry Fear © RT] [Video]

A palestinian child before and affter the israeli attack

Israel targeted the hamas leader after the ongoing rocket fire. Israeli children have also been hurt and killed. More israelis are not being harmed because they have iron dome which they have had to put into place to prevent death and destruction from the ongoing missiles coming from Gaza.

It is horrific the rocket fire and horrific the death in Gaza.

Hamas has no shame and the people of Gaza should rise up and defeat hamas but I suspect that at this point is a tall order because hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist.

 

[FearGod]

Israel targeted the hamas leader after the ongoing rocket fire. Israeli children have also been hurt and killed. More israelis are not being harmed because they have iron dome which they have had to put into place to prevent death and destruction from the ongoing missiles coming from Gaza.

It is horrific the rocket fire and horrific the death in Gaza.

Hamas has no shame and the people of Gaza should rise up and defeat hamas but I suspect that at this point is a tall order because hamas rules Gaza with an iron fist.

Thank you for your comment and for your kind words on such tragic situations.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps the paucity of partisan vitriol reflects maturity as much as apathy or fatigue.

... or perhaps not.

 

[jazzymom]

Thank you for your comment and for your kind words on such tragic situations.

I said:

It is horrific the rocket fire and horrific the death in Gaza.

Make no mistake it is horrific and any death is horrific but it all could have been avoided if hamas had not sent any rockets into Israel.

All of this could be avoided, that is the tragedy.

Horrible and avoidable.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Gaza has a blockade to keep weapons out and to curtail their ability to make and shoot rockets into Israel.

Israel left Gaza years ago and now face more rockets then they ever did.

So when the rockets stop and hamas lays down its weapons and stops the militants there will be no need for a blockade.

Israel did not wake up one morning and decide to go after the militants. Israel has been living with ongoing rocket fire for months now.

Hamas has control over Gaza and as the leaders has the power to stop the rockets. They have made little to no effort to stop the rocket fire.

So Gaza is not occupied, and when the rockets stop and they show they will not continue to attack Israel the blockade will end.

Any country has a right to self defense and the blockade is legal.

Hamas is the aggressor and absolutely is causing this provocation.

If you don't want to get stung don't put you hand in the hornets nest then cry foul and unfair.

If you don't want Israel to come after you don't shoot rockets into Israel civilian areas.

Israel as any other sovereign nation has a right to self defense.

You are in DENIAL.

 

[loverOfTruth]

So I guess the American Indians should start shooting rockets at Washington even though they (and I am one) are now infinately better off than they ever were under self rule. Maybe the Aztecs should go back to cutting the hearts out of their neighbors again to spite the Spanish. Israel has as much and more claim to the land as anyone there. It is less than 2% of the middle east yet they do more with the 2% in many ways than the rest of the middle east does with it's 98% which includes all the oil.

ISRAEL​

Statistics:

• Israel is 1/6 of 1% of the land mass of the Middle East.
• Israel is roughly half the size of Lake Michigan, or New Jersey.
• Israel’s population is ½ the size of metro New York. Only 2% of the Middle East population.
• Israel has none of the valuable resources of Oil, natural gas, or coal that the rest of the Middle East is covered up with.
• Hebrew is the only case in history where a completely dead language was revived.

ACCOPLISHMENT OF THIS TINY NATION​

• Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees per person in the world.
• Israel produces more published scientific papers per person than any other nation.
• They have the highest number of scientists and technicians per capita of any other nation.
• They have the highest number of engineers per capita in the world.
• They have the highest number of PhD’s per capita in the world.
• They have the highest number of physicians per person of any nation.
• Israel has the highest percentage of its workforce involved in technical areas than any other nation.
• Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation in the world per capita.
• It is the only country in the Middle East where Christian, Muslims and Jews are free to vote.
• It is the only country in the Middle East where women enjoy full political rights.
• They have the largest number of startup companies per capita in the world.
• They have the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies except for the US and Canada.
• Israel has the highest concentration of high tech companies outside Silicon Valley in the world.
• The cell phone was invented in Israel.
• Voice mail began there.
• IBM’s first PC had an Israeli chip.
• They developed the first anti-virus software.
• Most of Windows NT and XP were developed in Israel.
• The Pentium 4 and Centrino processors were entirely designed and produced in Israel as well as Pentium MMX Chip technology..
• Israel has the highest number of PCs per person in the world.
• They were the first Middle Eastern country to launch a satellite.
• They have more museums, more orchestras, and read more books per person than any other nation on earth.
• The most unrestricted free Arabic press is in Israel.
• Israel has the world’s finest airline security system.
• Their dairy cows produce more milk per cow by far than any other countries. (I know this isn’t that important but I listed it because it reminds me of that scripture that talks about how Israel will be a agricultural star in the end times)
• They have more in-vitro fertilizations per capita than any other nation. And it’s free.
• Israel’s $100 billion economy is larger than all its immediate neighbors combined.
• Israel has the highest average living standard of any country in the Middle East. The average income level is more than twice its neighbors in the region even though their neighbors are swimming in oil and they are not.
• Israel was the first country in the world to reject conflict diamonds.
• They developed the first camera small enough to be ingested for medical procedures.
• I’m getting bored but there is much more.

They did all this after having to start over again from scratch in 1948 all the while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under the strain of having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth. It is their enemy who say that Israel does not have a right to exist not the other way around. Imagine if we said no Arabian nation has the right to exist and proceeded to rally all the western nations to obliterate them.

WHO IS IT THAT OPPOSES THIS TINY INDUSTRIOUS NATION, ISRAEL​

• Morocco, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Somalia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen. These are just the ones that are overtly hostile to Israel and in close proximity.
• They control 13.5 million square km to Israel’s 20 thousand Km.
• They have 292 million people to Israel’s 5 million.
• A famous Arab is quoted as saying “If the Moslems laid down there arms today there would be peace tomorrow”. “If the Israelis laid down their weapons today there would be no Israel tomorrow”
• Jews have inhabited Israel continuously for 3,000 plus years. They are the only nation on earth that still speaks the same language, occupies the same land, and worships the same God that it did 3000 years ago.
• There has never been a Palestinian nation, a distinct Palestinian language or culture.
• The Jews have welcomed and incorporated Arabian refugees, but the Jewish refugees in Arabian countries are the only group of refugees in history that have not been accepted in countries which they exist even after three generations.
• Under Jordanian rule Jewish holy sites were systematically destroyed and they were denied access. Under Jewish control all Jewish, Christian, and Muslim sites are preserved and open to anyone to visit.

What is it that drives nations that control 99.9% of the land mass and all the great natural resources to start and embarrassingly loose 4 wars and many battles? Is there any conceivable honorable reason, or is it spiritual, jealousy, or just plain (racist hatred).

I have not verified every one of these claims but have verified and found reliable every single one that has been challanged.

This is quite rediculous. Israel has next to no influence in Gaza. If they did Hamas would not have taken over. In a graph where Israel's grants of land is plotted against Arabic violence there is a direct correlation. Every time Israel gives away land or anything else they captured the last time they were attacked it is used to attack them the next time. The Palestinians living in Israel have a much higher standard of living than they would have anywhere else.

​

​

What a bunch of BS. What a nation has accomplished has nothing to do with whether they can illegally occupy another people's land or not. And I didn't declare that illegal - international law did.

So you think USA has a right to take over any poor country just because those people would be better off under US rule ? Embarrassingly disgusting.

No question that killing innocent civilians and harming innocent is wrong no matter who does it. But you cannot just look the other way when one side does it and condemn the other side. Israel is making the life miserable(beyond recognition) for Palestinians by illegally occupying the lands of the Palestinians and thus Palestinians (out of frustration) are also responding using the wrong means. I am sure if the occupation ends, the rocket fires will end as well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What a bunch of BS. What a nation has accomplished has nothing to do with whether they can illegally occupy another people's land or not. And I didn't declare that illegal - international law did.

So you think USA has a right to take over any poor country just because those people would be better off under US rule ? Embarrassingly disgusting.

No question that killing innocent civilians and harming innocent is wrong no matter who does it. ...

I agree.

... But you cannot just look the other way when one side does it and condemn the other side. Israel is making the life miserable(beyond recognition) for Palestinians by illegally occupying the lands of the Palestinians and thus Palestinians (out of frustration) are also responding using the wrong means. I am sure if the occupation ends, the rocket fires will end as well.

What, in your opinion, would 'ending the occupation' look like?