Israel Palestine Conflict?

[Kerr]

What a bunch of BS. What a nation has accomplished has nothing to do with whether they can illegally occupy another people's land or not. And I didn't declare that illegal - international law did.

So you think USA has a right to take over any poor country just because those people would be better off under US rule ? Embarrassingly disgusting.

No question that killing innocent civilians and harming innocent is wrong no matter who does it. But you cannot just look the other way when one side does it and condemn the other side. Israel is making the life miserable(beyond recognition) for Palestinians by illegally occupying the lands of the Palestinians and thus Palestinians (out of frustration) are also responding using the wrong means. I am sure if the occupation ends, the rocket fires will end as well.

I have no love for Israel, but I dont think rockets can end this particular problem.

 

[FearGod]

I said:

It is horrific the rocket fire and horrific the death in Gaza.

Make no mistake it is horrific and any death is horrific but it all could have been avoided if hamas had not sent any rockets into Israel.

All of this could be avoided, that is the tragedy.

Horrible and avoidable.

They are fighting because they want free land,free borders,free open sea,free sky,
but israel besieged gaza,no one can deny this fact.

 

[England my lionheart]

This from the Freedom and Justice party,AKA the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt:

Monday, November 19,2012 17:01

Erian: Egypt Fully Supports Palestinian People

In post-revolution Egypt and the Arab Spring scene, there is no place for make-believe peace with Israel where the Zionist monstrosity blockades and imprisons millions of virtually unarmed people, and culls them whenever politically favorable.

Dr. Essam El-Erian, Vice-Chairman of the Freedom and Justice Party (FJP), asserted that foreign public opinion will turn against Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, with the increasing number of civilians falling victim to his war machine in Gaza.

In a post on his Facebook page, Erian said: "The Israeli Prime Minister will certainly lose some of his allies in the West. Meanwhile, Israelis will topple him, if more soldiers fall dead, injured after a ground invasion, or if a couple of soldiers are abducted. He would be held to task, lose his parliamentary majority, and may well stand trial like his predecessors.

"The cause of Palestine is back in the focus of the Arab people. Egypt has changed, and is now fully behind the Palestinian people. Arabs are rethinking their entire concept of the peace process. Reconciliation on the agenda of the resistance is near."

I suppose the parent organisation of Hamas saying this isn't at all surprising,not really helpful that they are supposedly brokering a truce,still,at least their true colours are visible to all.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

but israel besieged gaza,no one can deny this fact.

Why do you think they did so?

 

[loverOfTruth]

I agree.



What, in your opinion, would 'ending the occupation' look like?

Two sovereign nations with full control of their own border and destiny.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I have no love for Israel, but I dont think rockets can end this particular problem.

I agree - neither can occupation and choking a population to death with all sorts of restrictions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Two sovereign nations with full control of their own border and destiny.

I agree - so long as one of those nations is not committed to the eradication of the other.

How do you think we could mutually establish respected borders?

 

[loverOfTruth]

I agree - so long as one of those nations is not committed to the eradication of the other.

Agreed - but the perception the media gives is only some people from ONE side has this idea or 'eradication of the other'. But in reality extremists from both sides have this idea and some keep it open and some keep it hidden.

How do you think we could mutually establish respected borders?

I will let the people who live there decide what they can agree upon to be an acceptable compromise - but in general terms it should be where they were before the occupation started. Here is some history on that ...
A Brief Narrative History and Timeline of the Occupation

 

[jazzymom]

They are fighting because they want free land,free borders,free open sea,free sky,
but israel besieged gaza,no one can deny this fact.

I understand why they are fighting. There is a blockade because hamas has kidnapped Israelis, and continues to shoot rockets into Gaza. Israel left Gaza years ago and now they have hamas in control and allowing rockets to be fired into Israel.

The blockade is to stop weapons, and rockets, and items that hamas can use to build up areas to shoot rockets from getting into Gaza.

Hamas is gaining the ability to shoot rockets further into Israel and the rockets are much more precise,

Anyway a free Gaza without a blockade would be wonderful.

So now we get back to why there is a blockade.

Do you see that as long as Israel is the recipient of hamas rockets being shot out of Gaza by hamas the blockade cannot end?

Do you even acknowledge that hamas is sending rockets and has been doing so for months?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As a side not: I would love to see a discussion forum/panel with participation limited to those committed to achieving a reasoned dialogue and, to the extent possible, a shared narrative. I am amazed at the existence of groups such as Wahat al-Salam / Neve Shalom and marvel at their ability to function in the midst of such intensive strife. I wish we could find some way to emulate them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Agreed - but the perception the media gives is only some people from ONE side has this idea or 'eradication of the other'. But in reality extremists from both sides have this idea and some keep it open and some keep it hidden.

I will let the people who live there decide what they can agree upon to be an acceptable compromise - but in general terms it should be where they were before the occupation started. Here is some history on that ...
A Brief Narrative History and Timeline of the Occupation

I think both points taken together can serve as a good place to start. Thanks.

 

[Kerr]

I agree - neither can occupation and choking a population to death with all sorts of restrictions.

I agree.

 

[Pastek]

It's complicated to know who started first. Here it says it's Israel.

According to Julien Salingue -researcher in political sciences- a Palestinian child was killed before the famous attack against the Jeep of the Israeli army.

" It is true that many more rockets were pulled by Gaza this year compared with 2011 ", he grants to Point.fr.

" But a raid of Tsahal, last Thursday, November 8th to Khan Younès, while causing the death of a child 13-year-old Palestinian, who pulled the retort against the Jeep two days later. "


On Saturday, November 10th, an Israeli shell landed on a soccer field of the district al-Shoja'iya, near Gaza City, causing the death of two other minors.

" In one week, eight Palestinians - six civilians and two activists - were killed by the Israeli air forces, and fifty three wounded persons ", Julien Salingue supports.

" We realize that the peaks of rockets sent on Israel correspond to these raids. All these signs indicate that the operation of Thursday, which ended in the death of Ahmad Jaabari, had already been prepared ", assures the researcher.

Hamas, Israël, à qui la faute ? - Le Point

 

[Dingbat]

As a side not: I would love to see a discussion forum/panel with participation limited to those committed to achieving a reasoned dialogue and, to the extent possible, a shared narrative. I am amazed at the existence of groups such as Wahat al-Salam / Neve Shalom and marvel at their ability to function in the midst of such intensive strife. I wish we could find some way to emulate them.

Agreed, the Hawks from both sides need to be dismissed as loons. Protracted conflict in the region is not beneficial for either Palestine or Israel.

 

[1robin]

What a bunch of BS. What a nation has accomplished has nothing to do with whether they can illegally occupy another people's land or not. And I didn't declare that illegal - international law did.

Nor did I say it did. The UN voted to give Israel their land back 33 to 11 I think. What law supersedes that?

So you think USA has a right to take over any poor country just because those people would be better off under US rule ? Embarrassingly disgusting.

Nope nor did I say they should. I actually said we have what we have today and the worst possible case for everybody is to start yelling about right of return to land they do not have any superior claim to anyway. The plains Indians that were fought actually killed other Indians and took the land a few hundred years prior to the English taking it from them. The Aztec's killed or enslaved everyone around them and took whatever land they wanted. The right thing to do is everybody stay where they are at and quit shooting at each other. The most diabolical thing to do is shoot rockets at children on purpose and then point out how unjust Israel's replies were when they finally had enough. I am sure that Israel has at times acted unjust but there is no comparison with their actions and their neighbors and the response is causing more destruction that whatever real or imagined is used to justify it. I watched a six hour doc on the events surrounding Israel becoming a nation in 1948. There were over a hundred individual Palestinian terrorist attacks against them. There were exactly two Israeli terror attacks against Arabs. They were not ordered by the government and never carried out before they were arrested.

No question that killing innocent civilians and harming innocent is wrong no matter who does it. But you cannot just look the other way when one side does it and condemn the other side.

Israel as well as the US spends billions on weapons and loses men in the attempt to reduce civilian casualties. They never start any of these stupid fights and their enemies target their civilians. In what way are these comparable? Of course bad things happen and civilians will always get killed especially when Hamas stores weapons in schools and hospitals but if there were no rockets there would be no fight.

Israel is making the life miserable(beyond recognition) for Palestinians by illegally occupying the lands of the Palestinians and thus Palestinians (out of frustration) are also responding using the wrong means. I am sure if the occupation ends, the rocket fires will end as well.

Occupation of what? The land that Jewish people have inhabited for the past 4000 years. Are you actually suggesting the way out of this mess is for Israel to leave their own country? Israel gave the land of Gaza to the Palestinians even though they had captured it from army’s that had attacked them. They even gave them millions to rebuild it. The thanks they got was having rockets shot at them. I will add some more stats that make the case a little clearer.

For the many readers who have requested a brief synopsis of the moral arguments in the Arab-Israeli conflict, I offer the following list of numerical data.
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0
Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1
Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000
Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000
Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1
Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1
Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3
Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0
Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1
Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands
Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1
Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90
Number of Jewish countries: 1
Number of Jewish democracies: 1
Number of Arab countries: 19
Number of Arab democracies: 0
Number of Arab women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": thousands
Number of Jewish women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": 0
Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0
Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited
Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000
Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human-rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Arab countries voted with the United States in 2002: 16.6
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Israel voted with the United States in 2002: 92.6
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who defend Zionism and Israel: approximately 1.
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who believe in diversity on college campuses: 100
Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0
Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100
Number of Muslims in the world: more than 1 billion
Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2
(List compiled by Dennis Prager, with additional data by Clarence Wagner, Bridges for Peace)

I think the best way to illustrate this is that between Israel and the Arab nations, it is only the Arabs that have refused the right to exist to the other. It isn't complicated.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Nor did I say it did. The UN voted to give Israel their land back 33 to 11 I think. What law supersedes that?
Nope nor did I say they should. I actually said we have what we have today and the worst possible case for everybody is to start yelling about right of return to land they do not have any superior claim to anyway. The plains Indians that were fought actually killed other Indians and took the land a few hundred years prior to the English taking it from them. The Aztec's killed or enslaved everyone around them and took whatever land they wanted. The right thing to do is everybody stay where they are at and quit shooting at each other. The most diabolical thing to do is shoot rockets at children on purpose and then point out how unjust Israel's replies were when they finally had enough. I am sure that Israel has at times acted unjust but there is no comparison with their actions and their neighbors and the response is causing more destruction that whatever real or imagined is used to justify it. I watched a six hour doc on the events surrounding Israel becoming a nation in 1948. There were over a hundred individual Palestinian terrorist attacks against them. There were exactly two Israeli terror attacks against Arabs. They were not ordered by the government and never carried out before they were arrested.
Israel as well as the US spends billions on weapons and loses men in the attempt to reduce civilian casualties. They never start any of these stupid fights and their enemies target their civilians. In what way are these comparable? Of course bad things happen and civilians will always get killed especially when Hamas stores weapons in schools and hospitals but if there were no rockets there would be no fight.
Occupation of what? The land that Jewish people have inhabited for the past 4000 years. Are you actually suggesting the way out of this mess is for Israel to leave their own country? Israel gave the land of Gaza to the Palestinians even though they had captured it from army’s that had attacked them. They even gave them millions to rebuild it. The thanks they got was having rockets shot at them. I will add some more stats that make the case a little clearer.

For the many readers who have requested a brief synopsis of the moral arguments in the Arab-Israeli conflict, I offer the following list of numerical data.
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament: over 700
Number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in the Koran: 0
Number of Arab leaders who visited Jerusalem when it was under Arab rule (1948 to 1967): 1
Number of Arab refugees who fled the land that became Israel: approximately 600,000
Number of Jewish refugees who fled Arab countries: approximately 600,000
Number of U.N. agencies that deal only with Palestinian refugees: 1
Number of U.N. agencies that deal with all the other refugees in the world: 1
Number of Jewish states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 3
Number of Arab or Muslim states that have existed on the land called Palestine: 0
Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1
Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands
Percentage of Jews who have praised the Jewish terrorist: approximately .1
Percentage of Palestinians who have praised Islamic terrorists: approximately 90
Number of Jewish countries: 1
Number of Jewish democracies: 1
Number of Arab countries: 19
Number of Arab democracies: 0
Number of Arab women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": thousands
Number of Jewish women killed annually by fathers and brothers in "honor killings": 0
Number of Christian or Jewish prayer services allowed in Saudi Arabia: 0
Number of Muslim prayer services allowed in Israel: unlimited
Number of Arabs Israel allows to live in Arab settlements in Israel: 1,250,000
Number of Jews Palestinian Authority allows to live in Jewish settlements in Palestinian Authority: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human-rights violations: 0
Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26
Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175
Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97
Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4
Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16
Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322
Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Arab countries voted with the United States in 2002: 16.6
Percentage of U.N. votes in which Israel voted with the United States in 2002: 92.6
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who defend Zionism and Israel: approximately 1.
Percentage of Middle East Studies professors who believe in diversity on college campuses: 100
Percentage of people who argue that the Jewish state has no right to exist who also believe some other country has no right to exist: 0
Percentage of people who argue that of all the countries in the world, only the Jewish state has no right to exist and yet deny they are anti-Jewish: approximately 100
Number of Muslims in the world: more than 1 billion
Number of Muslim demonstrations against Islamic terror: approximately 2
(List compiled by Dennis Prager, with additional data by Clarence Wagner, Bridges for Peace)

I think the best way to illustrate this is that between Israel and the Arab nations, it is only the Arabs that have refused the right to exist to the other. It isn't complicated.

"Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980." [1]

"At present, based on the result of numerous UN resolutions that cite Article 49 of the Geneva Convention, the consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law" [1]

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

A Brief Narrative History and Timeline of the Occupation

Read some History before making false baseless claims.

 

[1robin]

"Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979 and 1980." [1]

"At present, based on the result of numerous UN resolutions that cite Article 49 of the Geneva Convention, the consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law" [1]
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements
A Brief Narrative History and Timeline of the Occupation
Read some History before making false baseless claims.

You ignore the countless facts of history I gave you, then post a single example of a resolution that is debatable and tell me to read history. How many laws does shooting rockets at civilians violate? How many laws does the repeated aggression by apparently incompetent and unjustified Arab nations who deny Israel's right to exist violate? How many laws does kidnapping, torture, and cowardly terrorist bombings violate? All of them. What kind of reasonable discussion can be held with nations that think the annihilation of Israel as a land and as a people is some kind of Holy cause? It didn't work out for the Nazis and it isn't working out too well for the Arabs either. It appears God had chosen a side long ago. I have to go. Shalom "Loveroftruth"

 

[esmith]

It would seem to me that if Hamas, and the other groups with the same outlook would have spent money on improving the living standards of their people vice weapons conditions in the area would better.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You ignore the countless facts of history I gave you, then post a single example of a resolution that is debatable and tell me to read history. How many laws does shooting rockets at civilians violate? How many laws does the repeated aggression by apparently incompetent and unjustified Arab nations who deny Israel's right to exist violate? How many laws does kidnapping, torture, and cowardly terrorist bombings violate? All of them. What kind of reasonable discussion can be held with nations that think the annihilation of Israel as a land and as a people is some kind of Holy cause? It didn't work out for the Nazis and it isn't working out too well for the Arabs either. It appears God had chosen a side long ago. I have to go. Shalom "Loveroftruth"

Brainwashed blabbers. Not to mention that I stopped reading your so called historical facts about Israeli/Palestinian issue when I hit the first one about Jerusalem being mentioned in the Old Testament. And at least try to remember to give credit to your sources you copy/paste the huge chunks of junk from.

Please read this for a different perspective : 5 Lies the Media Keeps Repeating About Gaza

 

[Rakhel]

Brainwashed blabbers.

Please read this for a different perspective : 5 Lies the Media Keeps Repeating About Gaza

Sounds like the same brainwashed blabbers spouted by the other side.
Sorry.