Israeli Duty to Warn? What unmitigated gall (chutzpah)

[Debater Slayer]

So how do you weigh that against the fact that Palestinians voted in leaders whose stated charter is the total destruction of Israel?

It is a crime to kill civilians regardless of who they voted for—and this is without even touching on the fact that it is immensely difficult for many Palestinians who oppose Hamas to make their voices heard or effect change.

An attack on American civilians after voters' election of George W. Bush for a second term in 2004 wouldn't have been any less criminal than 9/11 was.

It seems to me that that changes the conversation about what ought to constitute war crimes - at least to some degree?

What are you trying to imply? How does it "change the conversation"?

 

[Little Dragon]

I do not want Israel to become the monster that Hamas currently is.

Israel has many questions to answer. As a nation state, we can deal with it, by international law, if the international legal system is ever capable of bringing Israeli leadership to account, and if it is to do that, Israel won't be alone, other well known names will be up in the dock too, including my own nation, the UK. We all have things to discuss. Matters unsettled, Wrongs not rectified. However we must await, real applicable justice and relief for those that have been mistreated, and continue to live with this unresolved mess. Until the UN gets some teeth, and a certain UNSC nation, stops vetoing any UN resolution against Israel, or whatever else, could work.

 

[Jimmy]

To bad world leaders don’t know the truths of the mysteries of life. Maybe they wouldn’t be so eager to start wars if they did. Such a sad story.

 

[Little Dragon]

To bad world leaders don’t know the truths of the mysteries of life. Maybe they wouldn’t be so eager to start wars if they did. Such a sad story.

Humans don't deal with power very well. Sends them a bit peculiar. Often. They lose sight of reality, they end up thinking that they're the point of it all.

 

[icehorse]

What are you trying to imply? How does it "change the conversation"?

Do you think Hamas's charter should have zero weight in dealing with this situation? It seems to me to be an extraordinary fact, correct?

 

[Onasander]

Just War Theory isn't something derived from the UN, my username is a early theorist from 2000 years ago. It's been around for a while, most societies have variants of it. I'd be supporting Israel right now if the water was turned on in Gaza. It's a warcrime to deny civilians water in this manner. If I was Biden I'd have Israel under sanctions until the water starts rolling again.

As to the civilian hostages, nothing can be done right now. I have experience here, found a family once held hostage in Pakistan through a simple internet search (I gained that skillset because a guy from my old unit went AWOL, was captured and I wanted to find him).

If they are still missing in a few weeks and are advertised as being hostages, contact me and I'll try to track them down. It's oftentimes easier than it looks, but isn't a well understood skill set. Just always repercussions- mine resulted in a ****load of CIA drone strikes in retaliation (between 7-11 bases in Pakistan hit in retaliation) and then the Pakistani army invaded shutting the border down. Alot of people died. It didn't make me feel good, but a active genocide of the local people was underway at the time.

In Israel Hamas is doing nasty stuff but isn't quite full blown genocide yet, and Israel isn't in the mindset yet for restrained operations. So it had to wait a few weeks. Let them put out hostage videos (hopefully of still alive). It gives important clues.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you think Hamas's charter should have zero weight in dealing with this situation? It seems to me to be an extraordinary fact, correct?

Hamas' charter should have weight on dealing with Hamas. I'm presuming we're talking about consideration of civilian lives, not merely about Hamas.

So, what were you trying to imply by bringing up Palestinian civilians' supposed position on Hamas?

 

[Little Dragon]

Do you think Hamas's charter should have zero weight in dealing with this situation? It seems to me to be an extraordinary fact, correct?

It's not helpful! Probably not conducive to the spirits of compromise and peaceful resolution!? Methinks.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What are you trying to imply? How does it "change the conversation"?

I think it's called The @icehorse protocol, i.e., ...

One is not allowed to slaughter besieged noncombatants unless one is really, really upset at their leadership.​

 

[Dimi95]

And as I predicted, Israel has already killed more than Hamas killed:

Israel-Hamas war: Death toll climbs in Gaza airstrikes as Blinken visits region

More than 1,200 people have been killed in Israel, including 27 Americans, and over 1,500 have been killed in Gaza, according to officials.

www.cbsnews.com

Go after the leaders of Hamas. Imprison them for the rest of their lives and limit their ability to communicate for at least the first ten years. But there already were 950 dead, 140 of them children from Israeli counterstrikes at the time of that article and almost 10,000 hospitalized. It is time for both sides to call a cease fire. The number of Palestinian deaths will continue to grow due to the wounded alone. And more dead will be found.

Even if it's done like you described , they will continue , cut one head , another will take it's place.
My late father was in a war with Muslim people , they start agressive revolution , and after retaliation the victim role comes in play.
They implement the same tactic most of the time.
This is a religious , not ethnic war.
They knew the outcome of the retaliation,and still they attacked.
They want Jerusalem , not peace for their people.
It's horrible that innocent and sincere people on both sides die because of the actions of few.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think it's called The @icehorse protocol, i.e., ...

One is not allowed to slaughter besieged noncombatants unless one is really, really upset at their leadership.​

I have seen many examples where anti-Islamic sentiment has fueled a lot of the minimization and disregard for Palestinian concerns and lives. Sam Harris has engaged in such oversimplification, reducing the decades-long conflict to one variation or another of "Islam is bad, so Israel is right."

This is similar to when 9/11 and the London bombings happened and many people celebrated them because "those people voted for leaders who ruined our countries." I still remember that, and the argument is just as lopsided and dangerous now as it was back then.

 

[Little Dragon]

Even if it's done like you described , they will continue , cut one head , another will take it's place.

Sadly, yes. This is a war of religion, ethnicity, land and of course vendetta. Until israelis and palestinans, find better representatives or until we all step in and send in peacekeeping forces to eternally guard the innocent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have seen many examples where anti-Islamic sentiment has fueled a lot of the minimization and disregard for Palestinian concerns and lives.

Impassioned hatred is low-hanging toxic fruit.

 

[icehorse]

I think it's called The @icehorse protocol, i.e., ...

One is not allowed to slaughter besieged noncombatants unless one is really, really upset at their leadership.​

and @Debater Slayer

Well at least you haven't lowered yourself to strawman arguments, phew!

So let's look at "besieged" in this case. Is it fair to say that many countries are "besieging" these people? If you agree so far, then why isn't Hamas sending rockets to their other besiegers?

 

[Debater Slayer]

So let's look at "besieged" in this case. Is it fair to say that many countries are "besieging" these people?

Many? No. Only countries with which Gaza shares borders, and Israel is the one with the most control over Gaza's supply of basic needs as evidenced by the fact that it has been able to halt the supply of electricity, fuel, and food to Gaza.

If you agree so far, then why isn't Hamas sending rockets to their other besiegers?

I think it's quite clear that the main issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with claims to the land and with Israel's illegal occupation and settlements in Palestinian territories, along with Hamas' stated conviction that Israel shouldn't exist at all. The siege is secondary to and a result of this primary conflict, not the other way around.

Few things foster radicalism and enable it to gain foothold as reliably as a sustained status quo of abuse, oppression, and deprivation of basic needs.

All of that is beside your original comment, though, which seemed to imply that civilian lives were more dispensable in a war depending on who they supposedly voted for.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Many? No. Only countries with which Gaza shares borders, and Israel is the one with the most control over Gaza's supply of basic needs as evidenced by the fact that it has been able to halt the supply of electricity, fuel, and food to Gaza.



I think it's quite clear that the main issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has to do with claims to the land and with Israel's illegal occupation and settlements in Palestinian territories, along with Hamas' stated conviction that Israel shouldn't exist at all. The siege is secondary to and a result of this primary conflict, not the other way around.

Few things foster radicalism and enable it to gain foothold as reliably as a sustained status quo of abuse, oppression, and deprivation of basic needs.

All of that is beside your original comment, though, which seemed to imply that civilian lives were more dispensable in a war depending on who they supposedly voted for.

I agree. It is a severe problem that Hamas will not acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That attitude of theirs does not justify Israel's formation of illegal settlements. I am all for punishing Hamas for their terroristic attacks. Punish the leadership, not the civilians. I wouldn't mind the UN stepping in if they limited the illegal actions of everybody.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have seen many examples where anti-Islamic sentiment has fueled a lot of the minimization and disregard for Palestinian concerns and lives. Sam Harris has engaged in such oversimplification, reducing the decades-long conflict to one variation or another of "Islam is bad, so Israel is right."

This is similar to when 9/11 and the London bombings happened and many people celebrated them because "those people voted for leaders who ruined our countries." I still remember that, and the argument is just as lopsided and dangerous now as it was back then.

It's too easy for most of us to forget that a very large number of Palestinians are basically thought of as just tools by their political masters -- like Hamas. This has been going on for a very long time.

At the end of the day, if you want to wear the white hat, if you want to be seen as the "good guy," then don't do what you know to be wrong -- and wanton slaughter of innocents is very, very wrong. So I'm very much with @Subduction Zone, go after Hamas leadership and supporters, deal with them harshly, but legally. But don't get involved in senseless massacre of innocent Palestinians who, after all (as Golda Meier once said of Israel's Jews) have "nowhere else to go."

 

[Dimi95]

Sadly, yes. This is a war of religion, ethnicity, land and of course vendetta. Until israelis and palestinans, find better representatives or until we all step in and send in peacekeeping forces to eternally guard the innocent.

The West will open it's borders to this kind of people and they will infiltrate and they will go on the long run.
They now this , we have seen this scenario many times.

You think they are stupid, the ones that take the decisions?
How do you think Israel missed this?
Why their war leader has escaped assasination many times?
They hate us all , regardless what we have to say.
What do you know about hamas military commander Mohhamed Deif , known as "The Guest"?
U.S. has dessignated Mohhamad Deif as a terrorist.

If people like him decide in this kind of situations , people will surely die , many will die as victims of someone's bad decisions.
He is the mastermind of this operation , he took the risk , and the price was very high.

Peacefull forces must enter Israel and stay there untill this finally resolves.
Many years of agony , it's a perfect time for the West to enter Israel.
Israel broked many international human right laws , and that's reason plus to enter there.
Power needs to be confronted with bigger power , because the only thing that matters is solution on this conflinct.

Many tourists died and there are others who are in custody.

Israel needs interfering of bigger and smarter forces.

 

[jbg]

If it comes to that I hope that they do. As it is the number of Hamas dead and wounded probably already greatly outnumber the Israeli dead and wounded. I do not mind punishing Hamas, but I do not want to see innocent civilians harmed. Restraint must be used.

Was Hamas's attack restrained, sensitive or surgical?

 

[Mock Turtle]

What do you know about hamas military commander Mohhamed Deif , known as "The Guest"?
U.S. has dessignated Mohhamad Deif as a terrorist.

If people like him decide in this kind of situations , people will surely die , many will die as victims of someone's bad decisions.
He is the mastermind of this operation , he took the risk , and the price was very high.

He took the risk, on behalf of the Palestinian people? How noble of him.