Israeli Duty to Warn? What unmitigated gall (chutzpah)

[jbg]

Hamas, unprovoked and without warning, attacked Israel on Saturday, October 7. The Israelis, as was inevitable, fought back, hopefully hard. The New York Times' print edition contained an article "Gazans With Nowhere to Hide Issue a Plea: At Least Warn Us." The Times' electronic edition (link, not paywalled) modified the headline to "Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues." Either way, the article and contents constitute unmitigated gall, or, as the Yiddish expression goes, chutzpah. Excerpts:

Few warnings have been given before strikes, Gazans say, and entire families have been killed in their homes, according to the Gazan Health Ministry.
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Israel has said its strikes are targeting all sites connected with Hamas, the armed Palestinian group that controls the Gaza Strip, including the homes of members. Israel said it believes Hamas members are hiding in homes, schools and hospitals. Hamas members are Palestinians from Gaza, so they live among the community.
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“The hospitals in Gaza are in a very critical situation as a result of this oppressive siege, and that has led to a big shortage of medicine and medical tools and fuel,” said Ashraf al-Qidra, the spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, referring to the new bombardment. “Everyone needs to bear responsibility to save the medical work in Gaza.”

The UN High Commissioner for human rights continues this thoroughly disingenuous theme:

Volker Türk, the United Nations High Commissioner for human rights, on Tuesday warned that a full siege of Gaza would exacerbate the “already dire” humanitarian situation in the coastal territory and would hurt hospitals’ ability to treat the growing number of wounded.

Both the "Gazans" and Mr. Türk miss the delicious irony; Hamas gave no "warning" to the attendees at a rock concert that it killed, tortured and/or kidnapped. Ditto the Israeli homes invaded. Presumably, Israel is to meekly accept these attacks. The Gazans, somehow, are entitled to warnings so they can fight another day. The Israeli rock concert attendees, and other innocents, should just die.

After all, they are only the Joooooos, and should follow the pattern they adopted during the Shoah, with 6,000,000 going down with barely a whimper.

 

[Orbit]

It seems like a Hatfield & McCoys situation (blood feud , if you're not familiar). Two wrongs don't make a right. Cooler heads need to prevail.

 

[Colt]

My cat knew that Israel would retaliate after a large-scale terror attack on its citizens!? Everyone on the planet, maybe even other planets knew the Israelis would retaliate.

 

[jbg]

My cat knew that Israel would retaliate after a large-scale terror attack on its citizens!? Everyone on the planet, maybe even other planets knew the Israelis would retaliate.

Hamas assumes, correctly, that the U.S. will put their arm on Israel to stop any significant retaliation.

 

[Colt]

Hamas assumes, correctly, that the U.S. will put their arm on Israel to stop any significant retaliation.

So far that's wrong. In addition to completely innocent men, women, children and babies, the savage animals killed a bunch of Americans and may well have some American hostages! Permission granted! Hamas won't be able to rest or reconstitute IMOP.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hamas assumes, correctly, that the U.S. will put their arm on Israel to stop any significant retaliation.

If it comes to that I hope that they do. As it is the number of Hamas dead and wounded probably already greatly outnumber the Israeli dead and wounded. I do not mind punishing Hamas, but I do not want to see innocent civilians harmed. Restraint must be used.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And as I predicted, Israel has already killed more than Hamas killed:

Israel-Hamas war: Death toll climbs in Gaza airstrikes as Blinken visits region

More than 1,200 people have been killed in Israel, including 27 Americans, and over 1,500 have been killed in Gaza, according to officials.

www.cbsnews.com

Go after the leaders of Hamas. Imprison them for the rest of their lives and limit their ability to communicate for at least the first ten years. But there already were 950 dead, 140 of them children from Israeli counterstrikes at the time of that article and almost 10,000 hospitalized. It is time for both sides to call a cease fire. The number of Palestinian deaths will continue to grow due to the wounded alone. And more dead will be found.

 

[icehorse]

I think we need to zoom out and try to see the bigger picture. One perspective that seems useful to me is to consider how Hamas's other neighbors treat them. To me it's telling how Egypt and Jordan handle Hamas. For example, in Jordan there are now "refugee" camps with 4th generation "refugees".

 

[icehorse]

And as I predicted, Israel has already killed more than Hamas killed:

Should I infer that you think this is some new rule of war? Some symmetry in casualties?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think we need to zoom out and try to see the bigger picture. One perspective that seems useful to me is to consider how Hamas's other neighbors treat them. To me it's telling how Egypt and Jordan handle Hamas. For example, in Jordan there are now "refugee" camps with 4th generation "refugees".

That is true. The reason that there are 'refugees" in the first place is because Arab countries do not follow UN rules on refugees. To the Arab countries around Israel the refugees are useful cannon fodder in their aggressions against Israel.

Both sides are clearly at fault. And not enough is made of how the Arabic countries abuse the refugees that were forced into their lands by the wars that they started. They should have been force to take them on as citizens a long long time ago.

 

[Sargonski]

Hamas, unprovoked and without warning, attacked Israel on Saturday, October 7. The Israelis, as was inevitable, fought back, hopefully hard. The New York Times' print edition contained an article "Gazans With Nowhere to Hide Issue a Plea: At Least Warn Us." The Times' electronic edition (link, not paywalled) modified the headline to "Nowhere to Hide in Gaza as Israeli Onslaught Continues." Either way, the article and contents constitute unmitigated gall, or, as the Yiddish expression goes, chutzpah. Excerpts:

The UN High Commissioner for human rights continues this thoroughly disingenuous theme:

Both the "Gazans" and Mr. Türk miss the delicious irony; Hamas gave no "warning" to the attendees at a rock concert that it killed, tortured and/or kidnapped. Ditto the Israeli homes invaded. Presumably, Israel is to meekly accept these attacks. The Gazans, somehow, are entitled to warnings so they can fight another day. The Israeli rock concert attendees, and other innocents, should just die.

After all, they are only the Joooooos, and should follow the pattern they adopted during the Shoah, with 6,000,000 going down with barely a whimper.

There is nothing disingenuous at all about the UN HC's position .. it is a war crime to drop bombs on civilians.. and no less a war crime when Hamas does it. .. so if you don't want to be labeled a war criminal .. you make sure civilians are not in the building when you drop the bomb on it.

Gazens are no more or less entitled to warnings than Israeli's .. Americans, Ukrainians or Russians ... and in the vast majority if incidents over the Years .. the IDF has not given warnings .. intentionally killing women and children .. taking hostages .. Targeted assassinations .... in addition to mass war crimes - crimes against humanity .. illegal actions in violation of international law. ... and your neglect of these facts .. the "Sin of Omission" bout the only disingenuous thing going round here friend ..

 

[Subduction Zone]

Should I infer that you think this is some new rule of war? Some symmetry in casualties?

No, but many people are advocating revenge. And revenge has been attained. I understand Israel's attacks. But just as a police officer can use the needed force to bring a criminal under control and they do not get to continue to beat them after they have subdued the person, neither should Israel be endlessly shelling Gaza.

I think that they should go in and remove Hamas. They will know who the leadership is. Arrest them, kill them if they resist. Put them on trial and eventually imprison them. Rocket attacks are not very accurate in high population density areas. And the Gaza strip is an area of very high population density. Citizens will be and are being killed. I oppose that.

 

[icehorse]

There is nothing disingenuous at all about the UN HC's position .. it is a war crime to drop bombs on civilians.. and no less a war crime when Hamas does it. .. so if you don't want to be labeled a war criminal .. you make sure civilians are not in the building when you drop the bomb on it.

Gazens are no more or less entitled to warnings than Israeli's .. Americans, Ukrainians or Russians ... and in the vast majority if incidents over the Years .. the IDF has not given warnings .. intentionally killing women and children .. taking hostages .. Targeted assassinations .... in addition to mass war crimes - crimes against humanity .. illegal actions in violation of international law. ... and your neglect of these facts .. the "Sin of Omission" bout the only disingenuous thing going round here friend ..

So how do you weigh that against the fact that Palestinians voted in leaders whose stated charter is the total destruction of Israel?

It seems to me that that changes the conversation about what ought to constitute war crimes - at least to some degree?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So how do you weigh that against the fact that Palestinians voted in leaders whose stated charter is the total destruction of Israel?

It seems to me that that changes the conversation about what ought to constitute war crimes - at least to some degree?

They were fooled. We elected Trump. He is not much better. People make mistakes. And now they have suffered for it. But the people to punish are those that misled them and broke international law. Imprison them. Don't harm civilians. And especially not children who had nothing to do with the decision making process.

No side is innocent here. I do not want Israel to become the monster that Hamas currently is.

 

[Little Dragon]

So far that's wrong. In addition to completely innocent men, women, children and babies, the savage animals killed a bunch of Americans and may well have some American hostages! Permission granted! Hamas won't be able to rest or reconstitute IMOP.

As well as British citizens...

 

[Little Dragon]

I think that they should go in and remove Hamas. They will know who the leadership is. Arrest them, kill them if they resist. Put them on trial and eventually imprison them.

Agreed.

 

[Little Dragon]

@Subduction Zone . So far I have found I am almost 99% in agreement with your posts, in general, on all topics. Your song is from the same hymn sheet as mine I think. It is a good song.

 

[icehorse]

They were fooled. We elected Trump. He is not much better. People make mistakes. And now they have suffered for it. But the people to punish are those that misled them and broke international law. Imprison them. Don't harm civilians. And especially not children who had nothing to do with the decision making process.

No side is innocent here. I do not want Israel to become the monster that Hamas currently is.

I think this is a very good perspective, thanks! Through this lens, we might step back a bit and say: why didn't "the world" remove Hamas years ago?

And I think the answer is: because of the Islamic world's reaction, correct?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think this is a very good perspective, thanks! Through this lens, we might step back a bit and say: why didn't "the world" remove Hamas years ago?

And I think the answer is: because of the Islamic world's reaction, correct?

Yes. As long as they were not too egregious they have the right to make their own mistakes, as we do. It is when one forces one's errors upon others that actions need to be taken.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Either way, the article and contents constitute unmitigated gall,

What do you find galling?