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Israelites were polytheistic

outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
tumbleweed41 said:
Refute it? Heck, I'll quote it.

In the late 9th Century [BCE], other gods were still alluring, but they had to stay on the other side of the Jordan. This was not a monotheistic text. If no other gods existed, it would be unnecessary for the people to make such a choice. Monolotry (the worship of a single god) was a liturgical arrangement. The "Yahweh alone" movement urged Israelites to offer sacrifice only to Yahweh and ignore the cult of other deities.
Karen Armstrong, The Great Transformation

Yes, I have this book.
Click to expand...


sources for your quote please


because I already posted a picture drawn by Israelites 800 BC ish showing Asherah the queen of heaven and Yahweh who had a pretty even standing at that time, as well as Baal


and your discounting all of E
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Before El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, it is said in Genesis 14:18–20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon blessed him.[19] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. In some places, especially in Psalm 29, Yahweh is clearly envisioned as a storm god, something not true of Ēl so far as we know (though true of his son, Ba'al). (Noted Parallel: El is derived from Sumerian Enlil, God of Wind.[20]) It is Yahweh who fights Leviathan in Isaiah 27:1; Psalm 74:14; Job 3:8 & Job 40:25–41:1, a deed attributed both to Ba’al/Hadad and ‘Anat in the Ugaritic texts, but not to Ēl.
Such mythological motifs are variously seen as late survivals from a period when Yahweh held a place in theology comparable to that of Hadad at Ugarit;

or as late henotheistic/monotheistic applications to Yahweh of deeds more commonly attributed to Hadad;

or simply as examples of eclectic application of the same motifs and imagery to various different gods.




Now Abraham is a very late creation in mythology, and he still used El as his god. The abrahamic god used El not yahweh


But the inportant thing here is it says flat out, "as late henotheistic/monotheistic applications to Yahweh"


which is what ive been stating all along
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
outhouse said:
polytheism stands at this point to 622 BC ISH until someone can show evidence that yahweh worship was primary through the whole country by all tribes. All the while still worshipping El, Baal, and Asherah

basically you need to refute Karens work and atleast show her mistakes. Ive found a few but it doesnt discount all of her work.
Click to expand...

tumbleweed41 said:
Refute it? Heck, I'll quote it.

In the late 9th Century [BCE], other gods were still alluring, but they had to stay on the other side of the Jordan. This was not a monotheistic text. If no other gods existed, it would be unnecessary for the people to make such a choice. Monolotry (the worship of a single god) was a liturgical arrangement. The "Yahweh alone" movement urged Israelites to offer sacrifice only to Yahweh and ignore the cult of other deities.
Karen Armstrong, The Great Transformation

Yes, I have this book.
Click to expand...

outhouse said:
Nope

A History Of God
Click to expand...

Nope. That quote was from her more recent book, The Great Transformation

outhouse said:
sources for your quote please
Click to expand...

I did.
Karen Armstrong, The Great Transformation



outhouse said:
because I already posted a picture drawn by Israelites 800 BC ish showing Asherah the queen of heaven and Yahweh who had a pretty even standing at that time, as well as Baal


and your discounting all of E
Click to expand...

Such a short memory.


  • You claimed above that monoltry did not exist prior to 622 BCE.
  • You cited your source as Karen Armstrong, and made a challenge to "refute her".
  • In response, I quoted directly from Karen Armstrongs most recent work on the subject, which contrasted your claim.
And that is your response? That in quoting a recent work of the author of your claimed source I am ignoring E?
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
In the late 9th Century [BCE], other gods were still alluring, but they had to stay on the other side of the Jordan
Click to expand...

you can take here work which isnt a scholarship out of context all day long, it doesnt prove anything.

she could be talking about one of the yahwist groups in that time, as we all know in times of war people rallied around yahweh to save them as he was a warrior storm god.


you have such a static view of a multi cultural people


In response, I quoted directly from Karen Armstrongs most recent work on the subject, which contrasted your claim.
Click to expand...

it diesnt contrast my claim in any way shape or form
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
here is a good link from Cambridge, does a university work for you?

Appendix: Monotheism and Polytheism in Ancient Israel - University Publishing Online

It is a commonplace of modern biblical scholarship that Israelite religion prior to the Babylonian exile was basically polytheistic




now if you keep reading he points out that he can prove monotheism completely, but he is making a semi valid point about modern scholarships and their different beliefs
 
Last edited:
jasonwill2

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The revision of Israelite origins has implications for Israelite religion: whereas the Bible had depicted them as monotheists from the beginning, the new understanding is that they were polytheists who harboured a small and ultimately successful group of monotheistic revolutionaries



there is no doubt in modern scholarships that Israelites started as Polytheist.



Anyone is welcome to try and debate this
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Pretty sure they were henotheistic.

outhouse said:
I think the real debate is how short they were actually henotheistic as some have claimed.
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Reading the OT is enough to convince me they knew of other gods but only worshiped one.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
outhouse said:
could you please use sources that are in context that prove your point?




Canaanites have always been viewed as all other religions in the area, Polytheistic.


what your failing to realize is there were those who were henotheistic, but not the multi cultural civilizations your talking about.

you act as if all the poeple worshipped the same way. WE ARE talking about religions that were in a cnstant state of evolution.

and during certain periods part of a culture would have been henotheistic, and if we use your definition of teh word polytheism could be wiped off the planet.


all the while you have not proveded a shred of evidence of the cultural anthropology that dictates the definition was applied to the Israelite population as a whole.

every link I have generously posted for you has stated Israelites became monotheistic after 622 BC and at that time other deities were still worshipped.


Your also severly failing to understand the early Israelites were multi cultural

Get It!





and that did not become monolotry or henotheistic until 622 BC


Your ignoring the worship of El by the northern area, who viewed El as their primary deity.

Your also ignoring how large Asherahs following actually was, as gods wife before being used as a fertility deity.


your also failing to realize after repeatedly being told the books were all redacted to monotheism to yahweh, that J didnt exist as a written book that was done at one sitting. it and E were long compilations that changed with the multicultural people of Israel.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

In the episode of the "Palace of Ba‘al", the god Ba‘al/Hadad invites the "70 sons of Athirat" to a feast in his new palace. Presumably these sons have been fathered on Athirat by Ēl; in following passages they seem be the gods (’ilm) in general or at least a large portion of them. The only sons of Ēl named individually in the Ugaritic texts are Yamm ("Sea"), Mot ("Death"), and Ashtar, who may be the chief and leader of most of the sons of Ēl. Ba‘al/Hadad is a few times called Ēl's son rather than the son of Dagan as he is normally called, possibly because Ēl is in the position of a clan-father to all the gods.


here we have the 70 sons of El


note this Ēl is in the position of a clan-father to all the gods.

and this, the name Yamm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)




From KTU II:IV:13-14
  • tgr.il.bnh.tr [ ] wyn.lt[p]n il dp[id...] [7] [J yp 'r] Sm bny yw 'ilt
My son [shall not be called] by the name of Yw, o goddess, [Jfc ym smh (?)] [but Ym shall be his name!]
  • wp'r $m ym
So he proclaimed the name of Yammu.
  • [rbt 'atrt (?)] t'nyn
[Lady Athiratu (?)] answered,
  • lzntn ['at np'rt (?)]
"For our maintenance [you are the one who has been proclaimed (?)]

[8]Many scholars[who?] consider yw a reference to Yahweh. Others[who?] consider that yw is unlikely to have be derived from yhw in the second millennium. However the Ugaritic text is read, the verbal play on the similarity between yw and ym (the sea-god Yam) is evident




and here we see , my son is YW
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Commenting on the line in magenta colour.Abraham was a Canaanite; rather their grandfather; he was monotheistic.
Wasn't he?
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
paarsurrey said:
Commenting on the line in magenta colour.Abraham was a Canaanite; rather their grandfather; he was monotheistic.
Wasn't he?
Click to expand...
Canaanite was not a nationality, or religion. It simply meant that you were one of the many of the Semitic tribes/cities that lived in the geological region of Canaan.

We cannot be certain if Abraham was originally from Canaan, biblical records have him as an outsider from Ur which may have been in southern Persia.

And no, Abraham was more than likely a henotheistic polytheist. That is, Yahweh was his god, to be worshiped above all the other gods.
 
tumbleweed41

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
outhouse said:
here is a good link from Cambridge, does a university work for you?

Appendix: Monotheism and Polytheism in Ancient Israel - University Publishing Online

It is a commonplace of modern biblical scholarship that Israelite religion prior to the Babylonian exile was basically polytheistic




now if you keep reading he points out that he can prove monotheism completely, but he is making a semi valid point about modern scholarships and their different beliefs
Click to expand...
In what follows, I hope to accomplish two tasks. I intend to show that the Hebrew Bible is rightly regarded as a monotheistic work and that its monotheism was not unusual for Israelite religion in the preexilic era...

Why would you post a paper attempting to discount polytheism in ancient Israel altogether in your attempt to prove that the polytheistic practices of monolotry and henotheism were not a part of the polytheism of that era that you endorse?
 
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