paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Who was the first messenger prophet to originate Israelites in your opinion? Please quote from Word of revelation form him which could be depicted as polytheistic to substantiate your assertion.
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Israelites were polytheistic
- Thread starter outhouse
- Start date
Who was the first messenger prophet to originate Israelites in your opinion? Please quote from Word of revelation form him which could be depicted as polytheistic to substantiate your assertion.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Originate Israelites? The Israelites were not "originated" by a prophet.
Has anyone stopped to give any thought to the psychology behind starting this thread? It strikes me as being somewhat like some petulant kid blurting out: Your mother wears support hose! I guess we're suppose to scurry off feeling astonished and, perhaps, crestfallen. 
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Again, henotheism and monolatry ARE polytheistic.
Biblical records as far back as 950 BCE promote a focus on Yahweh, while acknowledging the existence of other gods.
Even your links to Yahweh and his Asherah show a focus on Yahweh over other gods.
Conversely, the Ugarit texts show a focus in Ugarit on Baal over other gods. (According to the texts, Baal was their patron deity)
Having a patron deity, or putting the focus of your worship on one deity over others is the very definition of henotheism and/or monolatry, one or the other, depending on how restrictive that focus is.
FTR, not once has it been argued that polytheism did not exist.
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outhouse
Atheistically
Again, henotheism and monolatry ARE polytheistic.
But youfail after all that was posted that early yahweh worship was not monolotry or henotheism
Yahweh was not the central main deity of israelites until after 622 BC and even then not everyone was on board as evident in writing.
Some tribes or ereas would have fallen under that description, but not as a whole culture that didnt fit in one mold, :slap:
outhouse
Atheistically
No it doesnt
all the early works were a compilation over hundreds of year, in one southern area of Israel, Not the nothern part that still worshipped El
you ignore and do not refute those facts at all because you cannot.
yet they were never labeled as monolotry or henotheistic ever
Your also taking into account that the authors of biblical text represent all of the population, which is not the case. your taking a uneducated reading and trying to place the reading out of context
OMG - 3 posts in a row! I wonder what that was all about. 
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Really? Never? Ever?
One of your sources, Mark S. Smith, refers to the period before the Babylonian Exile as a stage of monolatry in The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel.
K.L. Noll speaks of the henotheistic beliefs of differing Canaanite cities/tribes and Israel in Canaan and Israel in Antiquity: An Introduction.
Patron deity=monolatry/henotheism.
Let me make this easy on you.
Athena was the patron deity of Athens
She was worshiped above all other gods, although other gods were also prayed to and worshiped by the population, according to circumstance.
This is known as the henotheistic form of polytheism.
Get it?
No, I am not. Religious texts and beliefs have never represented "all of the population".
I am talking about the history of Yahweh worship.
Speaking of which, have you found anything in the Ugaritic Texts yet that links Yahweh as a son of El?
outhouse
Atheistically
Has anyone stopped to give any thought to the psychology behind starting this thread? It strikes me as being somewhat like some petulant kid blurting out: Your mother wears support hose! I guess we're suppose to scurry off feeling astonished and, perhaps, crestfallen.
I understand you ignorance on the subject due to personal bias
but we are learning about the polytheistic past and at what point Israelites as a whole became henotheistic, because they never started out that way.
and by the length of this topic, there are unanswered questions to be delt with
all of which you choose to remain snide and rude and not participate, usual jay :slap:
Hope springs eternal.
outhouse
Atheistically
could you please use sources that are in context that prove your point?
Canaanites have always been viewed as all other religions in the area, Polytheistic.
what your failing to realize is there were those who were henotheistic, but not the multi cultural civilizations your talking about.
you act as if all the poeple worshipped the same way. WE ARE talking about religions that were in a cnstant state of evolution.
and during certain periods part of a culture would have been henotheistic, and if we use your definition of teh word polytheism could be wiped off the planet.
all the while you have not proveded a shred of evidence of the cultural anthropology that dictates the definition was applied to the Israelite population as a whole.
every link I have generously posted for you has stated Israelites became monotheistic after 622 BC and at that time other deities were still worshipped.
Your also severly failing to understand the early Israelites were multi cultural
Get It!
and that did not become monolotry or henotheistic until 622 BC
Your ignoring the worship of El by the northern area, who viewed El as their primary deity.
Your also ignoring how large Asherahs following actually was, as gods wife before being used as a fertility deity.
your also failing to realize after repeatedly being told the books were all redacted to monotheism to yahweh, that J didnt exist as a written book that was done at one sitting. it and E were long compilations that changed with the multicultural people of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)
In the episode of the "Palace of Ba‘al", the god Ba‘al/Hadad invites the "70 sons of Athirat" to a feast in his new palace. Presumably these sons have been fathered on Athirat by Ēl; in following passages they seem be the gods (’ilm) in general or at least a large portion of them. The only sons of Ēl named individually in the Ugaritic texts are Yamm ("Sea"), Mot ("Death"), and Ashtar, who may be the chief and leader of most of the sons of Ēl. Ba‘al/Hadad is a few times called Ēl's son rather than the son of Dagan as he is normally called, possibly because Ēl is in the position of a clan-father to all the gods.
here we have the 70 sons of El
note this Ēl is in the position of a clan-father to all the gods.
and this, the name Yamm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)
From KTU II:IV:13-14
- tgr.il.bnh.tr [ ] wyn.lt[p]n il dp[id...] [7] [J yp 'r] Sm bny yw 'ilt
- wp'r $m ym
- [rbt 'atrt (?)] t'nyn
- lzntn ['at np'rt (?)]
[8]Many scholars[who?] consider yw a reference to Yahweh. Others[who?] consider that yw is unlikely to have be derived from yhw in the second millennium. However the Ugaritic text is read, the verbal play on the similarity between yw and ym (the sea-god Yam) is evident
and here we see , my son is YW
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tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
As your Wiki quote says...
The "who?" links to this...
The "who?" links to this...
Unsupported attributions
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tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
So, you didn't look at the sources?
outhouse
Atheistically
the verbal play on the similarity between yw and ym (the sea-god Yam) is evident
and while were at it, its been long established that Yahweh predates Isarelites.
and there is no doubt these Ugaritic text look at El as the father of all gods
the math adds up here.
El has a history in different cultures as being a father deity
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outhouse
Atheistically
im guessing I have studied J much longer then you.
if you would like some reading, I can direct you to some very good work on the subject, at a scholarly level
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
According to whom?
(And please, research the sources of the Wiki links and quotes you use.)
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
According to whom?
outhouse
Atheistically
your speaking from a standpoint of lack of knowledge in biblical text that often say El is the father deity.
your also lacking, probably forgetting one of the first links I posted
History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers")
and in this case the FATHER was EL
what part of family dont you understand??????