ISSUE OF HOMOSEXUALITY

[viole]

Then that is their choice.

All I can do is my best in raising them. I may not approve of their choices, but I will always love my children. Just like I love my wife, but can't stand her grizzly bear snoring...

Their choice? Is sexual orientation a choice? I wonder when you chose to be heterosexual (if you are heterosexual). Was that a difficult choice?

The only people who think you can choose with what gender you want to have sex are bisexuals, by definition. So, I wonder

Ciao

- viole

 

[Father Heathen]

I do not concern myself with their biology, genetics, personal choices or anything else. I could care less how their "gayness" came to be. I work with gays within my unit. They keep it to themselves and are very professional. I have no problems with that as personal crap does not belong in the workplace to begin with, regardless of sexual orientation. I don't talk about how freaky my wife got the night before, as it would be wrong to do so.

I have already stated that I support gay rights in that they should be treated equal according to the law (marriage, health care, etc.). No human should be considered a subclass and treated any differently by law. No religious institute should dictate what the law can or can't say/do. What more do you want from a Southern, Bible-belt heterosexual male with a wife and two kids, that was brought up in a conservative Baptist church?

I will say this one more time and I hope it will sink in...I personally, as is my right and choice, do not approve of homosexual activity. I see it as both immoral and unnatural. Immoral because, according to my opinion and beliefs which I am entitled to, it is wrong. It is my right to think that way. Unnatural because two men can't procreate. Two women can't procreate. It takes a man and woman to procreate naturally. Plain and simple.

I am entitled to my opinion, as is my right, just like I support human rights to equal treatment by law. I, on a personal level, do not have to like it, approve of it, or accept it. Just because it may be made legal (which I support) does not mean I am forced to look the other way and act like nothing is happening. It does not mean that I am no longer entitled to my opinion, or that I have to teach my children that being gay is ok. My rights, as a US citizen, are also protected under the Constitution, especially where the 1st Amendment is concerned.

In summary, I support gay rights and they should be treated equally, by law.
I personally do not approve of homosexuality and I am entitled to my opinion about it.

The fact that you atleast support the rights and freedom of LGBT people is what's important, so props for that. As for your own opinions, of course you should have the right and freedom to believe and speak as you wish as well. No one should try to deny you that. That said, criticizing an idea or stance isn't the same as trying to censor it. Debating and educating is what this place is all about.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The fact that you atleast support the rights and freedom of LGBT people is what's important, so props for that. As for your own opinions, of course you should have the right and freedom to believe and speak as you wish as well. No one should try to deny you that. That said, criticizing an idea or stance isn't the same as trying to censor it. Debating and educating is what this place is all about.

This is when you drop the mic...great post.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Those who advocate for homosexuality often make such claims, that somehow the Bible doesn't say what it plainly does.
1 Cor. 6:9 "ἢ Or οὐκ not οἴδατε have you known ὅτι that ἄδικοι unjust (ones) θεοῦ of God βασιλείαν kingdom οὐ not κληρονομήσουσιν; they will inherit? Μὴ Not πλανᾶσθε· be you being misled; οὔτε neither πόρνοι fornicators οὔτε nor εἰδωλολάτραι idolaters οὔτε nor μοιχοὶ adulterers οὔτε nor μαλακοὶ soft [men] οὔτε nor ἀρσενοκοῖται liers with males." I checked numerous translations and all consistently render this verse as referring to homosexual acts.
The point of Matthew 19:4,5 is that God made marriage between a male and female. "In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?"
Finally, quoting what the Bible says is not done to condemn anyone. Suppressing the truth benefits no one. (Romans 1:18)

It's ridiculous to pretend that first century men knew what we know now. They thought that sperm contained the whole baby and that women were just receptacles. We need to go with what has been proven, not guess like they did back then.

 

[Father Heathen]

Those who advocate for homosexuality don't much care what the the bible has to say on the subject, only those trying to rationalize bigotry do. After all, the bible also says slavery is okie dokie, and we determined that to be immoral, too.

Yeah, I don't understand what they could hope to achieve by quoting the bible to those who don't even believe in its authority or authenticity.

 

[Marisa]

Yeah, I don't understand what they could hope to achieve by quoting the bible to those who don't even believe in its authority or authenticity.

There's that, sure, but what I think is more compelling is the many believers who "update" the bible's moral authority. As an example, slavery.

 

[Father Heathen]

There's that, sure, but what I think is more compelling is the many believers who "update" the bible's moral authority. As an example, slavery.

And having tattoos, and eating pork/shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics, rotating crops, talking to menstrating women, selling underage daughters into marriage, forcing rape victims to marry their attacker, etc.

 

[rusra02]

The Bible says that, not God. The Hebrews wrote Leviticus to keep culturally and spiritually separate from the Babylonians, who engaged in homosexual temple rituals. They thought that God would only bless them if they stayed separate.

I believe the Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel by God. "Jehovah continued to speak to Moses, saying: “Speak to the Israelites and say to them, ‘I am Jehovah your God...You must not lie down with a male in the same way that you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable act." (Leviticus 18:1,2,22)

 

[rusra02]

Curious then, what you think of Texas flooding shortly after banning gay marriage,
but a giant double rainbow over Ireland as they passed gay marriage as legal?
Do you consider that a sign?

Neither event is a sign from God, IMO.

 

[Selinagirl]

I believe the Law of Moses was given to the nation of Israel by God. "Jehovah continued to speak to Moses, saying: “Speak to the Israelites and say to them, ‘I am Jehovah your God...You must not lie down with a male in the same way that you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable act." (Leviticus 18:1,2,22)

If you take that word by word, homosexual activities are not banned, because this only means vaginal sex, and men have no vagina.

 

[rusra02]

Those who advocate for homosexuality don't much care what the the bible has to say on the subject, only those trying to rationalize bigotry do. After all, the bible also says slavery is okie dokie, and we determined that to be immoral, too.

At the risk of getting off topic, according to the Toronto Star and other sources, there are more people in slavery today then ever before. The Bible laws on slavery are far different then the oppressive slavery practiced today. Nowhere does the Bible condone mistreating or oppressing others. Oppressive slavery is but one of many evils practiced by a world alienated from God.

 

[Koldo]

If you take that word by word, homosexual activities are not banned, because this only means vaginal sex, and men have no vagina.

I disagree. Completely.
'No lying down' means 'no lying down'.
That says nothing about doing it while standing up though... Or sitting down.

 

[rusra02]

If you take that word by word, homosexual activities are not banned, because this only means vaginal sex, and men have no vagina.

The meaning is quite clear, IMO.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I disagree. Completely.
'No lying down' means 'no lying down'.
That says nothing about doing it while standing up though... Or sitting down.

I have to say...this is a damn good point.

 

[Selinagirl]

At the risk of getting off topic, according to the Toronto Star and other sources, there are more people in slavery today then ever before. The Bible laws on slavery are far different then the oppressive slavery practiced today. Nowhere does the Bible condone mistreating or oppressing others. Oppressive slavery is but one of many evils practiced by a world alienated from God.

SO you are for slavery, as long it is not oppressive?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Although God is mentioned, many of the Founding Fathers were not Christian. Many of the key players were actually deists, and that list includes Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin.

Actually, many of the Founders were Christian (though most of them that most people can name were Deists), and Thomas Paine was not a Founder.
And, I would add the Treaty of Tripoli to your list, because it explicitly states that the United States was not founded upon Christian principles.

At the risk of getting off topic, according to the Toronto Star and other sources, there are more people in slavery today then ever before. The Bible laws on slavery are far different then the oppressive slavery practiced today. Nowhere does the Bible condone mistreating or oppressing others. Oppressive slavery is but one of many evils practiced by a world alienated from God.

It doesn't matter how slaves are treated. Owning another human being is the inherent "sin" of slavery, and no matter how slaves are treated slavery is always a great evil that reduces a human being to a piece of property.
And, FYI, slavery back then was also very oppressive.

 

[Father Heathen]

Neither event is a sign from God, IMO.

So they're only coincidences until they happen to jive with your preconceived notions, only then are they "signs from god."

 

[JoStories]

So they're only coincidences until they happen to jive with your preconceived notions, only then are they "signs from god."

Thanks. That is just exactly what I was going to say. Isn't it interesting how that works for them?

 

[Ingledsva]

No it doesn't condemn homosexuals!

As has been shown OVER-and-OVER-and-OVER,

Romans 1 is about Sacred Sex - it TELLS US SO!

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

~~ ~ NOTE: the people in 24 that dishonor their bodies, are the people WHO worship the Act of Creation in 25! Religious Sexuality! ~~~

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of Deity into a lie, and worship and render religious homage to the "Act of Creation" more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Worshiping with sex is obviously - SACRED SEX - not homosexuality!

There is NO verse saying only male and female may marry!

1 Corinthians does NOT say what you imply!

1 CO 6:9 Know you not that the “heathen” shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither prostitutes (pornos,) nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the morally weak, nor arsenokoites (rapists,)

There are no ancient Greek texts using arsenokoites or its stem as homosexuality. There are uses for both male and female as RAPE.

The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae. TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek, from the 8th century BC to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453. They have 73 references to the arsenokoit stem. There are NO early Greek uses of the word as “homosexual.” LATER - the church decides to translate it as such – then these later texts copy the church original.
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Matt 19 is specifically a question about married people, and says, or implies NOTHING about homosexuals, or gay marriage.

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

You folks need to stop saying texts that have NOTHING to do with homosexuality - are somehow condemning them!!!!!

Those who advocate for homosexuality often make such claims, that somehow the Bible doesn't say what it plainly does.

1 Cor. 6:9 "ἢ Or οὐκ not οἴδατε have you known ὅτι that ἄδικοι unjust (ones) θεοῦ of God βασιλείαν kingdom οὐ not κληρονομήσουσιν; they will inherit? Μὴ Not πλανᾶσθε· be you being misled; οὔτε neither πόρνοι fornicators οὔτε nor εἰδωλολάτραι idolaters οὔτε nor μοιχοὶ adulterers οὔτε nor μαλακοὶ soft [men] οὔτε nor ἀρσενοκοῖται liers with males." I checked numerous translations and all consistently render this verse as referring to homosexual acts.
The point of Matthew 19:4,5 is that God made marriage between a male and female. "In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?"

ING - AGAIN - He is answering a question only concerning what husbands can do to their wives. NOTHING to do with homosexuals - PERIOD!!!

Finally, quoting what the Bible says is not done to condemn anyone. Suppressing the truth benefits no one. (Romans 1:18)

LOL! Dude! Instead of checking translations - I suggest you check out the GREEK.

The word in question - I have highlighted for you in your post - is arsenokoitai.

As already shown - the word does NOT mean homosexual or "liers with males," etc.

I posted The authority on this - The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae.

The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae. TLG has collected and digitized most literary texts written in Greek, from the 8th century BC to the fall of Byzantium in AD 1453. They have 73 references to the arsenokoit stem. There are NO early Greek uses of the word as “homosexual.”

WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT - NO EARLY GREEK USES AS HOMOSEXUAL????

This word that you are trying to erroneously claim is about homosexuals - has been found used in texts concerning the RAPE of WOMEN.

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[Ingledsva]

It's ridiculous to pretend that first century men knew what we know now. They thought that sperm contained the whole baby and that women were just receptacles. We need to go with what has been proven, not guess like they did back then.

So true.

But also, - don't worry - he just posted the usual mistranslation.

The authorities - as I posted - tell us there is NO use of - arsenokoitai - as homosexual in early Greek language.

They mistranslate the text for their own prejudicial purposes.

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