Italy and Hungary oppose warfare supply to Ukraine

[Stevicus]

They don't need to.
The Baltics hate Russia's guts, but there are no warmongers inciting for war in those countries.

I wouldn't know. The Baltic Republics are too small to be inciting any kind of war, but since they're part of the NATO alliance, they're ostensibly deferring to whatever the major powers in the West want to do.

If Estonia had the size, population, and resources the United States has, they might have wanted to go to war. But then again, if they were that large, they would never have been occupied by either Russia or Germany in the first place.

 

[Estro Felino]

I wouldn't know. The Baltic Republics are too small to be inciting any kind of war, but since they're part of the NATO alliance, they're ostensibly deferring to whatever the major powers in the West want to do.

They are also part of the EU.
I am realizing that Americans:
1) hardly understand the juridical implications of being a EU member state
2) kinda believe that NATO and EU are the same thing.

If Estonia had the size, population, and resources the United States has, they might have wanted to go to war. But then again, if they were that large, they would never have been occupied by either Russia or Germany in the first place.

And after a hour they would have been kicked out of the EU, because the EU treaties prevent EU countries from promoting acts against the peaceful coexistence of nation.
They are dying to go to war against Russia (no pun intended)...but they want to remain in the EU.

 

[Altfish]

They are dying to go to war against Russia (no pun intended)...but they want to remain in the EU.

Evidence??

 

[Twilight Hue]

Source

Italia e Ungheria frenano l’Europa sulle armi all’Ucraina

Respinta la richiesta di Borrell di consentire attacchi in Russia Tajani: “Ogni Paese decida per sé”

www.google.com

I am sorry for the caviar-eating élites in Brussels...but, unlike the USA we need to fund our universal public healthcare system, instead of wasting money on idiocies.

Compris, Belgique?
@TagliatelliMonster ❤

Should please those who don't like or care for a world's policeman well enough.

 

[Estro Felino]

Should please those who don't like or care for a world's policeman well enough.

If there were zero wars, there would be no need of any world's policeman.
That is why they create wars artificially.

 

[Revoltingest]

If there were zero wars, there would be no need of any world's policeman.
That is why they create wars artificially.

Perhaps you missed the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.
Putin started this war, not USA.

 

[Stevicus]

They are also part of the EU.
I am realizing that Americans:
1) hardly understand the juridical implications of being a EU member state
2) kinda believe that NATO and EU are the same thing.

I realize that NATO and the EU are separate, but having a large permanent military establishment kind of helps to keep things together. Europe has traditionally had to rely upon the diplomatic system, since no single country had the power or wherewithal to rule over all the rest (although some have tried). After WW2, it became America and Russia, and then, as Russia's power faded, it became just America. Without America, NATO collapses, and a declawed EU would likely break apart. (I'm not saying they would go to war or not have good relations, but they might do their own "brexit" of sorts.)

And after a hour they would have been kicked out of the EU, because the EU treaties prevent EU countries from promoting acts against the peaceful coexistence of nation.
They are dying to go to war against Russia (no pun intended)...but they want to remain in the EU.

It depends on whether the benefits of remaining in the EU outweigh whatever possible benefit they might achieve by going to war. Essentially, the Baltics already felt they were getting a rotten deal from being part of the USSR (and previously as part of the Russian Empire). By withdrawing from the USSR and running into the arms of NATO, they probably believed they would get a better deal - and this seems to have panned out in their favor.

This seems to be largely the case for the other Warsaw Pact former Soviet satellites which have since joined up with NATO. They're doing better now than they ever did under Soviet rule.

But beyond that, do they still hold resentments or lingering hatreds towards Russia, as a nation, because of what the Soviets did? Is that a good enough reason to want war?

 

[Estro Felino]

Perhaps you missed the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine.
Putin started this war, not USA.

The USA is paying the actor to invade Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

I realize that NATO and the EU are separate, but having a large permanent military establishment kind of helps to keep things together. Europe has traditionally had to rely upon the diplomatic system, since no single country had the power or wherewithal to rule over all the rest (although some have tried). After WW2, it became America and Russia, and then, as Russia's power faded, it became just America. Without America, NATO collapses, and a declawed EU would likely break apart. (I'm not saying they would go to war or not have good relations, but they might do their own "brexit" of sorts.)

There's also the EU.
So there is Russia, America, EU. Three, not two.

It depends on whether the benefits of remaining in the EU outweigh whatever possible benefit they might achieve by going to war. Essentially, the Baltics already felt they were getting a rotten deal from being part of the USSR (and previously as part of the Russian Empire). By withdrawing from the USSR and running into the arms of NATO, they probably believed they would get a better deal - and this seems to have panned out in their favor.

This seems to be largely the case for the other Warsaw Pact former Soviet satellites which have since joined up with NATO. They're doing better now than they ever did under Soviet rule.

Hardly.
They are just countries with a fragile cultural identity.

But beyond that, do they still hold resentments or lingering hatreds towards Russia, as a nation, because of what the Soviets did? Is that a good enough reason to want war?

It would be psychologically and psychiatrically sick. Insane.
I mean... there was a WW in Europe in the forties. No resentment between France and Germany any more...they are great allies.
They have been for 80 years.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm not reprimanding you at all, just pointing out your incessant obsession with this man.

And "elite bankers". Don't forget the bankers!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The USA is paying the actor to invade Russia.

Retarded

 

[Stevicus]

There's also the EU.
So there is Russia, America, EU. Three, not two.

Yes, although the EU exists only as long as its member states agree to it. Britain has already withdrawn from it. What would prevent other member states from withdrawing?

Hardly.
They are just countries with a fragile cultural identity.

Not sure what "fragile cultural identity" means in this context. I can understand that there's some degree of nationalistic pride from these countries, since they lived under the thumb of another nation for more than 40 years. Their cultural identity seems pretty durable, considering the historical circumstances.

As an American descended from European immigrants, concepts of European nationalism can sometimes be difficult for me to relate to. Many Americans are proud of the fact that their ancestors learned English and assimilated to the predominant Anglo-American culture. They didn't cling too strongly to the language and culture of the old country, and many Americans can only speak English (and may only barely understand the language of their forebears). This also relates to the resistance by some Americans to modern concepts of multiculturalism and multilingualism, as some Americans believe it can lead to what some call "balkanization."

It would be psychologically and psychiatrically sick. Insane.
I mean... there was a WW in Europe in the forties. No resentment between France and Germany any more...they are great allies.
They have been for 80 years.

I tend to agree, although I get the sense that there are still some lingering resentments. That seems to me to be the root cause of the current conflict. People who had been oppressed and dominated by a foreign power build up resentments and anger over time, and when the yoke of oppression is lifted and they're finally free, they show a bit of attitude towards their former oppressors. One can observe similar phenomena elsewhere in the world, as many countries voice opposition and hostility towards the West for their historical oppression.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, although the EU exists only as long as its member states agree to it. Britain has already withdrawn from it. What would prevent other member states from withdrawing?

Very little...but there is a bigger problem called Eurozone, €, and that will ultimately cause the undoing of this revolting, plutocratic EU.
Also thanks to the fact that some member states didn't join the Eurozone.

Not sure what "fragile cultural identity" means in this context. I can understand that there's some degree of nationalistic pride from these countries, since they lived under the thumb of another nation for more than 40 years. Their cultural identity seems pretty durable, considering the historical circumstances.

That's exactly what I mean by fragile.
If they prefer to rely on this sterile and childish Russophobia to build a national identity, they will lose the respect of more important member states.
Let's be honest... Germany and France have a much more important history. Not to mention my country and Greece.

As an American descended from European immigrants, concepts of European nationalism can sometimes be difficult for me to relate to. Many Americans are proud of the fact that their ancestors learned English and assimilated to the predominant Anglo-American culture. They didn't cling too strongly to the language and culture of the old country, and many Americans can only speak English (and may only barely understand the language of their forebears). This also relates to the resistance by some Americans to modern concepts of multiculturalism and multilingualism, as some Americans believe it can lead to what some call "balkanization."

Unfortunately that's why Americans can't understand how Europeans feel a more spiritual connection with Russia...than with the rest of the Western block. Russia played a fundamental role throughout 1000 years of European history.

I tend to agree, although I get the sense that there are still some lingering resentments. That seems to me to be the root cause of the current conflict. People who had been oppressed and dominated by a foreign power build up resentments and anger over time, and when the yoke of oppression is lifted and they're finally free, they show a bit of attitude towards their former oppressors. One can observe similar phenomena elsewhere in the world, as many countries voice opposition and hostility towards the West for their historical oppression.

Incomprehensible.
This is the attitude that makes the Israeli-Palestinian conflict eternal.
On the contrary...as you can see, France and Germany have been at peace for 80 years and will be for more 80 years.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Unfortunately that's why Americans can't understand how Europeans feel a more spiritual connection with Russia...than with the rest of the Western block. Russia played a fundamental role throughout 1000 years of European history.

lol

Your delusional thinking knows no bounds.

Incomprehensible.

Why is that "incomprehensible"?
My grandfather is no longer alive, but he lived through both world wars. I can tell you that till the day he died, a part of him held on to resentment of Germany.
Even though the nazi's were a thing of history and present day Germany had moved on so much that it might just as well be called by another name.
Completely a thing of the past and basically complete in unity with the rest of western europe. Such wounds never fully heal.

Even in our generation, people who were born DECADES after WW2, there still is this speck of resentment burried deep down in our souls, knowing and understanding and remembering what our parents and grand parents had been put through by Germany.

Then look at Russia, which in fact is STILL being run by the very people that once were part of the KGB and alike, still as authoritarian as it used to be and which instead of having moved on from their dark soviet days, in fact - if anything - looks back with nostalgy.

On the contrary...as you can see, France and Germany have been at peace for 80 years and will be for more 80 years.

Yes, but as I said above... Germany clearly has turned a page. Russia hasn't.
And even with that page turned, Germany still carries its legacy in the minds of people. Even though nobody left still holds it's nazi past against modern day germany. It is not forgotten.

 

[Stevicus]

Very little...but there is a bigger problem called Eurozone, €, and that will ultimately cause the undoing of this revolting, plutocratic EU.
Also thanks to the fact that some member states didn't join the Eurozone.

I can see where everyone using the same currency would have certain conveniences. On the other hand, some might see their currency as unique to their nation and with symbolic value, not unlike a national flag. They put a great effort into designing it, and there's also a lot of handwringing over whose pictures should be used to print on it.

That's exactly what I mean by fragile.
If they prefer to rely on this sterile and childish Russophobia to build a national identity, they will lose the respect of more important member states.
Let's be honest... Germany and France have a much more important history. Not to mention my country and Greece.

They already have a national identity, at least in the sense that they have a unique language and history, and it's obviously important to them. I don't think their national identity needs to be built on Russophobia, although some of these countries lived under the Russian Empire and/or USSR for quite a long time, so it's part of their history and part of their identity. Even if the Baltic Republics may be small, they still wish to retain and pass on their cultural and national identity.

Of course, some cultures and languages do change or disappear over time. National identities can change. Boundaries change. Even religions change. I can't imagine what the world will look like in 1000 years, if we even survive that long. But I daresay it would be completely unrecognizable and incomprehensible to us today. Just as the world was quite different 1000 years ago. Even the languages were different. I don't think I could understand English as it was spoken 1000 years ago. I never even could understand Shakespeare.

Of course, France and Germany might have histories which are considered more significant from the viewpoint of a Western historian. Both of those cultures have also made an indelible mark on American history and culture as well. Nowadays, I think most Americans consider them valued friends and allies, but there are some who have a certain acerbic wit when talking about those countries. Many Americans think America is the most important country in the world.

Unfortunately that's why Americans can't understand how Europeans feel a more spiritual connection with Russia...than with the rest of the Western block. Russia played a fundamental role throughout 1000 years of European history.

Perhaps. 1000 years is a long time, and during much of the first half of that, much of Russia was under control of the Mongol Empire. The rest of Europe was racked with plague, religious tyranny, stagnant societies, feudalism. It was no picnic in Russia either, although they were separated by the religious schism between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. I don't know what that means as far as any spiritual connections, as that's historically been a source of spiritual disconnection.

Incomprehensible.
This is the attitude that makes the Israeli-Palestinian conflict eternal.
On the contrary...as you can see, France and Germany have been at peace for 80 years and will be for more 80 years.

Perhaps now. Whatever reasons they had for fighting in the past don't seem to exist anymore. But that doesn't necessarily mean there would be no possibility of friction at some levels. I've heard that some among the older generations might still hold some old grudges which might be passed on to the younger generations, but perhaps not too much. Both France and Germany are Western democratic societies with a first-world standard of living, so they're both doing well. There's absolutely no reason for them to fight about anything at this point. They are allies and partners now.

 

[EinGeheimkonto]

Talk about misrepresentation.....

What Italy is opposing is NOT to send weapons to Ukraine so that they can defend themselves against an invading aggressor.
What they are actually opposing is using Italian supplied weapons to attack Russia on Russian soil.

Italy so far has supplied Ukraine with 6 military packages and there is no sign at all that they will stop doing this, nor have they threatened to vote against any aid packages (be it military or otherwise).

Strategically it seems more about avoiding a situation where the Ukrainians will get dug in for months. Financially, it seems about not wanting to spend funds when those monies would be better used at home.

I wish the US would follow suit and not spend so much on foreign conflicts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Strategically it seems more about avoiding a situation where the Ukrainians will get dug in for months. Financially, it seems about not wanting to spend funds when those monies would be better used at home.

I wish the US would follow suit and not spend so much on foreign conflicts.

That would be shortsighted.

The cost in the long run of not helping Ukraine could / would be a lot bigger.

 

[Estro Felino]

That would be shortsighted.

The cost in the long run of not helping Ukraine could / would be a lot bigger.

I can imagine,
The banking cloaca in Brussels will have to renounce their dream to rob Russia's resources.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can imagine,
The banking cloaca in Brussels will have to renounce their dream to rob Russia's resources.

Or in non-ridiculous-conspiratory language: not have us put in a position where Russia can continuously blackmail us and weaponize things like energy and grain which would give it the power to invoke financial crisis, energy crisis and near-famines whenever it feels like it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Or in non-ridiculous-conspiratory language: not have us put in a position where Russia can continuously blackmail us and weaponize things like energy and grain which would give it the power to invoke financial crisis, energy crisis and near-famines whenever it feels like it.

We speak two different languages, monsieur.
You're perfectly fine with banksters infesting the EU institutions in Brussels.
I am not.
I will love Belgium and the EU, when those buildings will kick out those people who don't belong in the EU establishment.

That is why I love Russians. Because they chased away those people from their country.

And you probably hate them for the exact same reason.