Its Good news .

[InChrist]

Then what do you make is the verses below? And what about the Christian belief in hell? If hell is not torture what is it?

Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Then what do you make is the verses below? And what about the Christian belief in hell? If hell is not torture what is it?

Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

It is torment. There is a difference between the words and concepts of torture and torment. And from my reading of scripture I believe it will be self-torment on the part of those who reject the glorious eternal love, beauty and freedom God offered.

 

[InChrist]

Ah, justified punishment isn't torture. Thanks.

Do you oppose justice?

 

[Moonjuice]

Find me the word “torture” which you used initially. As a finite created beings, I don’t think you or I have the ability to say or determine whether the eternal punishment God designates is unjustified. As well, the scriptures are repeatedly clear that God is Just.
Those are my thoughts, I realize you likely disagree and that’s your prerogative.

A never ending punishment is a good way to describe torture. Even if hell isn’t so bad, the fact that it never ends is the torturous part.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Do you oppose justice?

Suppose God decided to save everyone, not a single soul lost to hell, would you oppose God?

 

[JoshuaTree]

A never ending punishment is a good way to describe torture. Even if hell isn’t so bad, the fact that it never ends is the torturous part.

No free will in heaven, right?

 

[Trailblazer]

Guessing the text book answer is absence from God (hell) is the torture...

Yes, that is what Baha'is believe hell is, remoteness from God, but we don't call it torture. The last sentence in this passage describes what hell is and how people wind up there. It is not all about what they believed, it is how they lived and what they lived for.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

That is not much different from what Jesus said will happen to the soul that is a victim of self and passion:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is torment. There is a difference between the words and concepts of torture and torment. And from my reading of scripture I believe it will be self-torment on the part of those who reject the glorious eternal love, beauty and freedom God offered.

I fully agree. It will be self-torment on the part of those who reject the glorious eternal love, beauty and freedom God offered.

 

[Trailblazer]

As for my personal belief I don't believe in an eternal hell, I believe in a temporal hell here on earth but not eternal torment.

I have to say I just don't know about the afterlife, only God knows anyone's eternal destination, but I do know about hell on earth because I have been in it for most of my life.

 

[Trailblazer]

No free will in heaven, right?

No, not like we have here, and that is why God gave us all these warnings, such as:

40: O MY SERVANT! Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

 

[JoshuaTree]

I fully agree. It will be self-torment on the part of those who reject the glorious eternal love, beauty and freedom God offered.

How can we be held accountable for rejecting something we know absolutely nothing about?

Consider Nicodemus, teacher of Israel, smart dude, asked Jesus how to enter kingdom of heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus he can't help him, that he must be born again. Nicodemus said how can man enter the womb a second time? The point Jesus was trying to make was that we can no more control the time and place of our second birth than we can out first birth, God and God alone is responsible for that transformation. There is no real estate change between the kingdom of heaven and hell, it's here and now, those who believe that God is in control are on the shady side, those who don't are on the sunny side to varying degrees. If God isn't in control then who? You? Demons? The devil? That's the point Jesus was trying to make in his ministries, in my opinion. And because everything according to god's perfect plan, no harm no foul whichever side your are currently on, I believe everyone will come to that realization and no one will be lost, least of all because of what you think you chose to believe.

Bet I catch flack from that, best refill my glass, right?

 

[InChrist]

A never ending punishment is a good way to describe torture. Even if hell isn’t so bad, the fact that it never ends is the torturous part.

So what would you propose? The alternative to eternal torment is eternal love, joy and bliss with God... but those who are suffering in eternal separation from God are by their own absolute refusal to be with God.

The scriptures state that God desires
all to be saved. So what about those who refuse?

 

[Ashoka]

As I posted to another


Find me the word “torture”. As a finite created beings, I don’t think you or I have the ability to say or determine whether the eternal punishment God designates is unjustified. As well, the scriptures are repeatedly clear that God is Just.
Those are my thoughts, I realize you likely disagree and that’s your prerogative.

The word torture may not be there, but the idea is. If I say, "I walked into a room and came out with bloody clothes"...no, I didn't use the word "murder" but it's pretty evident what just happened.

So while torture is not there, it's very evident that torture is taking place. Being thrown into hell to suffer for eternity is torture, even though the word may not be there.

Your God is not just if he tortures people for all eternity. Plain and simple. He is cruel and unkind.

 

[Ashoka]

So what would you propose? The alternative to eternal torment is eternal love, joy and bliss with God... but those who are suffering in eternal separation from God are by their own absolute refusal to be with God.

The scriptures state that God desires
all to be saved. So what about those who refuse?

If God were actually just, and really, really wanted us to be with him forever...he would make it so. No strings attached.

 

[InChrist]

Suppose God decided to save everyone, not a single soul lost to hell, would you oppose God?

God has decided to save everyone. Jesus paid for the sins of the world; meaning everyone. But God is not going to force everyone to turn from their sin or force everyone into heaven, nor allow sin or evil to enter and exist in the new heaven and earth.

 

[InChrist]

The word torture may not be there, but the idea is. If I say, "I walked into a room and came out with bloody clothes"...no, I didn't use the word "murder" but it's pretty evident what just happened.

So while torture is not there, it's very evident that torture is taking place. Being thrown into hell to suffer for eternity is torture, even though the word may not be there.

Your God is not just if he tortures people for all eternity. Plain and simple. He is cruel and unkind.

Not if the agony is self- inflicted torment, which God in His love made every effort and provided all that was needed for anyone to avoid such a destiny.

 

[Ashoka]

Not if the agony is self- inflicted torment, which God in His love made every effort and provided all that was needed for anyone to avoid such a destiny.

It's only self-inflicted because he gave us an ultimatum. Love me or burn. That's not a choice. That's manipulation.

 

[InChrist]

If God were actually just, and really, really wanted us to be with him forever...he would make it so. No strings attached.

He has made it available as a free gift, the only strings as you say, are that each person must choose to be with God and no sin is allowed. I’d say that’s a good thing, a just requirement because sin is harmful and destructive.

 

[InChrist]

It's only self-inflicted because he gave us an ultimatum. Love me or burn. That's not a choice. That's manipulation.

It’s not manipulative if God has invited everyone into the eternal new heaven and earth, but some of their own volition refuse to come.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can we be held accountable for rejecting something we know absolutely nothing about?

I do not think we are accountable for something we know absolutely nothing about, but now many people ahve never heard of Jesus in modern times? By the mid-19th century 95% of the world's population had heard the gospel message, and by now i am sure the percentage is a lot higher. Most people in the world have alos heard about Muhammad. It s a lot different for the Bahai Faith because it is early yet, and people are not held accountable for what they did not know about.

The following quote refers to Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this age. Those people who never heard of Baha'u'llah, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus, will attain to the same station as if they had known because it is not their fault that they did not know. Of course that implies that those who did know will be held accountable. Exactly how they will be judged only God knows.

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path, they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

Consider Nicodemus, teacher of Israel, smart dude, asked Jesus how to enter kingdom of heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus he can't help him, that he must be born again. Nicodemus said how can man enter the womb a second time? The point Jesus was trying to make was that we can no more control the time and place of our second birth than we can out first birth, God and God alone is responsible for that transformation. There is no real estate change between the kingdom of heaven and hell, it's here and now, those who believe that God is in control are on the shady side, those who don't are on the sunny side to varying degrees. If God isn't in control then who? You? Demons? The devil? That's the point Jesus was trying to make in his ministries, in my opinion. And because everything according to god's perfect plan, no harm no foul whichever side your are currently on, I believe everyone will come to that realization and no one will be lost, least of all because of what you think you chose to believe.

Bet I catch flack from that, best refill my glass, right?

Yeah, you had better go and get a drink and I don't mean milk! (Just kidding...)

If you believe everyone will come to that realization and no one will be lost, least of all because of what they think they chose to believe, that would mean that the scriptures from Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith are wrong.
How is it justice is some people suffer and sacrifice and others do nothing for the sake of God and just live for the world and they all wind up the same in the end?

As I recall we were having a discussion on free will and whether we have it on another thread. I believe we have the free will to make moral choices but much of the rest of our lives are determined by fate. Whether belief in God or a certain religion is a choice once one knows about the religion is not something I can say. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone is "capable" of believing in God, because otherwise we could not be held accountable for our failure.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

... but whether everyone an utilize that capability is another matter because our choices are constrained by many factors. What is most important Imv is that people make a sincere effort and lead a moral life, which is more about how they treat other people than anything else.

 

[InChrist]

The word torture may not be there, but the idea is. If I say, "I walked into a room and came out with bloody clothes"...no, I didn't use the word "murder" but it's pretty evident what just happened.

So while torture is not there, it's very evident that torture is taking place. Being thrown into hell to suffer for eternity is torture, even though the word may not be there.

Your God is not just if he tortures people for all eternity. Plain and simple. He is cruel and unkind.

Here is one primary definition of torture:
1: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

God does not torture people.
The scriptures indicate that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked ( Ezekiel 18:23; 32). In biblical terms death means separation from God the Source of life. The scriptures also plainly stated that God desires all to be saved. I believe the scriptures reveal that humans were created with the purpose of living in a loving, beautiful, joyful, creative relationship with God their Creator forever. Yet, love must be a free choice. The problem is that when one rejects real love and joy and refuses the purpose for which they were created, as well as their source of life, the result is self- inflicted misery.