Its Good news .

[JoshuaTree]

I do not think we are accountable for something we know absolutely nothing about, but now many people ahve never heard of Jesus in modern times? By the mid-19th century 95% of the world's population had heard the gospel message, and by now i am sure the percentage is a lot higher. Most people in the world have alos heard about Muhammad. It s a lot different for the Bahai Faith because it is early yet, and people are not held accountable for what they did not know about.

The following quote refers to Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this age. Those people who never heard of Baha'u'llah, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus, will attain to the same station as if they had known because it is not their fault that they did not know. Of course that implies that those who did know will be held accountable. Exactly how they will be judged only God knows.

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path, they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

Yeah, you had better go and get a drink and I don't mean milk! (Just kidding...)

If you believe everyone will come to that realization and no one will be lost, least of all because of what they think they chose to believe, that would mean that the scriptures from Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith are wrong.
How is it justice is some people suffer and sacrifice and others do nothing for the sake of God and just live for the world and they all wind up the same in the end?

As I recall we were having a discussion on free will and whether we have it on another thread. I believe we have the free will to make moral choices but much of the rest of our lives are determined by fate. Whether belief in God or a certain religion is a choice once one knows about the religion is not something I can say. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone is "capable" of believing in God, because otherwise we could not be held accountable for our failure.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

... but whether everyone an utilize that capability is another matter because our choices are constrained by many factors. What is most important Imv is that people make a sincere effort and lead a moral life, which is more about how they treat other people than anything else.

Catholics believe in invincible ignorance, that those who haven't heard might be saved. Forget crucifying Jesus, burn all the books and shut down the churches, statistically better odds of saving more people than vice versa? Right?

I believe God is in control, no free will whatsoever, no sin death or the power of the devil. Does that make me right and everyone else wrong? Absolutely no! Who are we to judge another man's servant??? You, I, and everyone on this forum plays an (equally) important part in God's perfect plan, it isn't sin to disagree, but I think it is sin to think that we all have to agree to appease an all powerful all knowing God.

The illusion of free will is something left over from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God looked at all he created and proclaimed it was good, mankind takes a bite from the forbidden fruit and disagrees with God knowing better now, so enters sin death and the power of the devil.

We may never agree, but that doesn't make either of us wrong.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Hell was not created for man ,but the devil and his angels .

Hell was NOT created.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Actually that idea is just a theory (though it used to be popular in some churches), one of seven main theories of atonement, and not the one I'd expect myself to best fit all the texts. I'd instead offer the one that fits best the most key chapter about it, Romans chapter 6.

That Christ came to break the grip of evil on us, to free us, for any that would believe in Him.

He came to set us free.

To free us from the invisible but very real prison of the accumulation of our wrongdoing in life (such as returning an insult towards someone that insulted us, etc.).

What you say here, it is as I believe, but could not say it so beautifully.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe God is in control, no free will whatsoever, no sin death or the power of the devil. Does that make me right and everyone else wrong? Absolutely no!
The illusion of free will is something left over from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God looked at all he created and proclaimed it was good, mankind takes a bite from the forbidden fruit and disagrees with God knowing better now, so enters sin death and the power of the devil.

We may never agree, but that doesn't make either of us wrong.

No, because nobody can prove that we have free will or that we don't, but I will leave you with this:

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High.

It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour.” 1 Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, “Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?” The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, “O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?” In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state.

Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice. But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.

This question has become clearly explained. Salutations!

Some Answered Questions, pp. 248-250

 

[Truthseeker]

No, because nobody can prove that we have free will or that we don't, but I will leave you with this:

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?

Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them.

Now another question arises. Man is absolutely helpless and dependent, since might and power belong especially to God. Both exaltation and humiliation depend upon the good pleasure and the will of the Most High.

It is said in the New Testament that God is like a potter who makes “one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour.” 1 Now the dishonored vessel has no right to find fault with the potter saying, “Why did you not make me a precious cup, which is passed from hand to hand?” The meaning of this verse is that the states of beings are different. That which is in the lowest state of existence, like the mineral, has no right to complain, saying, “O God, why have You not given me the vegetable perfections?” In the same way, the plant has no right to complain that it has been deprived of the perfections of the animal world. Also it is not befitting for the animal to complain of the want of the human perfections. No, all these things are perfect in their own degree, and they must strive after the perfections of their own degree. The inferior beings, as we have said, have neither the right to, nor the fitness for, the states of the superior perfections. No, their progress must be in their own state.

Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself. So if a king should appoint someone to be the governor of a city, and should grant him the power of authority, and should show him the paths of justice and injustice according to the laws—if then this governor should commit injustice, although he should act by the authority and power of the king, the latter would be absolved from injustice. But if he should act with justice, he would do it also through the authority of the king, who would be pleased and satisfied.

That is to say, though the choice of good and evil belongs to man, under all circumstances he is dependent upon the sustaining help of life, which comes from the Omnipotent. The Kingdom of God is very great, and all are captives in the grasp of His Power. The servant cannot do anything by his own will; God is powerful, omnipotent, and the Helper of all beings.

This question has become clearly explained. Salutations!

Some Answered Questions, pp. 248-250

Hey, I just covered this recently in my Zoom class!

 

[John1.12]

Fair enough, though there are plenty of other passages about baptism and other rituals.

Not 'to be saved ' to a gentile after Acts 7 .

 

[John1.12]

... and I find the 'gospel' Paul preached was the same ' good news ' that Jesus preached at Luke 4:43.
The theme of Jesus' teaching was about the 'good news of God's Kingdom' ( thy kingdom come......) - Daniel 2:44
That God's Kingdom government is the global or international solution to mankind's problems.
This is because Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

Can a person be saved today if they dont believe the death ,burial and resurrection?

 

[John1.12]

I find Mark 16 actually ends at verse 8. After verse 8 it is added-on spurious verses.
Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who endures to the end is saved, so Mark 16:16 is wrong.
So, a saved person can fall away - 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Mark 16:15 is also wrong because at Matthew 24:14 Jesus said the gospel would be as a witness to the nations.
Jesus does Not say to every creature. Remember: new people are born each day, it is as a witness to earth's nations.
The 'tongues' of Acts chapter 2 is speaking about ' mother tongues ' or ' native languages '. Nothing Not understood.
So, the new ' tongues' of Mark 16:17 is wrong about 'new tongues' but about people being able to communicate with each other without the need of a translator at that time frame.
No 1st-century Christians handled snakes as in Mark 16:18 but instructed to declare God's Kingdom - Matthew 24:14
Also, I find Mark 16:19 is wrong because resurrected Jesus did Not ascend to heaven on that day.
For that matter, later that day Jesus gathered with his followers that evening in a locked room - John 20:19
So, Mark ends at Mark 16:8.

Paul 'handles 'a snake ,is bitten and not harmed .

 

[John1.12]

Jesus asked God (or asked someone) "Why hath thou forsaken me?" Which means that it wasn't Jesus's idea to die for our sins.

So, Jesus was murdered by Romans (Pontius Pilate was the one who carried out the murder).

God was all powerful, and could have saved Jesus if he had wanted to.

Because God was all-powerful, he didn't need to get humans to kill his son. God also didn't need to kill anyone to forgive humans. It was a simple matter for God to forgive.

By allow Jesus to be killed, God was not only cruel to Jesus, but cruel to the world, since Jesus was the one who cured illnesses and fed the poor. Jesus had also advocated that churches tend to the poor and sick, as well, rather than spend money on elaborate trinkets.

A lot of Christians lie about the goodness of God, but God isn't good if he does bad things (like allowing Jesus to be killed).

If God is not good, why should people want to get into heaven and be next to God?

Why did God tell Noah to build an ark? Why flood the world when God could have merely waved his hand and wiped out all humans that he didn't like? Humans don't have to do anything to help God get things done because God is all-powerful. Am I to understand that God made the whole universe, and made complex creatures (like humans) but couldn't build an ark without human help?

If God is good, why did he allow Jews to be prisoners of Egyptians?

How do we now that the story of the resurrection of Jesus was real? Because the apostles said so? How do we know that there were apostles?

Why did only a small portion of the world hear this version of the bible?

Jesus layed down his own life . And he raised it up again . Its not a tragedy. Its good news because he rose again 3 days later ,defeating sin and death .

 

[John1.12]

The bible itself teaches, It is a two edge sword- Hebrews 4:12--
Good news for those who live now to do Jesus Fathers will( Matt 7:21-23) over their own will. And endure until their end, doing just that to get saved( Matthew 10:22)
If one practices a sin= a worker of iniquity( Matt 7:23) it does not sound like they can enter Gods kingdom when Jesus tells those, to get away from him at judgement. This is what Jesus teaches. So do his real teachers.

Yes Hebrews 4 .12 is referring to Gods word .
I'm referring to 1 cor 15 .1-4 ,and you went to Matthew 7 and Matthew 10 ,the Gospel ( The death ,burial and resurrection ) hasn't even happened yet ??

 

[John1.12]

Hell was NOT created.

' Eternal fire ' ? ' prepared ' ?
41¶Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[viole]

The' Gospel ' literally means 'good news ' .This is described in a nut shell in 1 cor .15 .1-4

1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Often Christianity is argued against for various reasons ,but negatively .the central message is actually 'good news ' literally.
Good news for the whole world. The message of how Jesus has died for our sins . Its 'good news '. Why do some treat it as bad news . Its a free gift also . You cannot earn it . Its the offer of eternal life.
So it's:
- eternal life ,
- forgiveness of sins ,completely ,past present and future .
- Peace with God
- Justification
- redemption
- Blessed with all spiritual blessings
- Its all a free gift
- cannot be earned
- recieved through faith
- No rituals,pilgrimage, special clothes ,bno joining an organisation , club , ' church ' no practices, no asceticism , to recieve all of the above .
Even if you argue that its not true, I don't believe its sensible to argue that the message ( Gospel ) is negative, or bad news ,if it is indeed true . Which of course I believe it is .
Thoughts?

It is actually bad news. Much better if you never heard of that. Unless people who never heard of the Gospel all go to Hell, for reasons outside their control. Which would contradict a loving and just God.

It actually sounds something like: "Good news! Now I am going to tell you something that will guarantee you an eternity of roasting if you don't buy it".

I don't know you, but that causes me a cognitive dissonance. I think we can make a moral case that, if the salvation theory is correct, spreading the Gospel is immoral.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Jesus layed down his own life . And he raised it up again . Its not a tragedy. Its good news because he rose again 3 days later ,defeating sin and death .

Big deal. Everybody would sacrifice himself like that.

It is like depleting your bank account to save a poor friend, when you know the money will magically reappear after the weekend.

Was that really a sacrifice?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey, I just covered this recently in my Zoom class!

I love this chapter, it just about says it all on the subject of God's will vs. human free will.

 

[John1.12]

It is actually bad news. Much better if you never heard of that. Unless people who never heard of the Gospel all go to Hell, for reasons outside their control. Which would contradict a loving and just God.

It actually sounds something like: "Good news! Now I am going to tell you something that will guarantee you an eternity of roasting if you don't buy it".

I don't know you, but that causes me a cognitive dissonance. I think we can make a moral case that, if the salvation theory is correct, spreading the Gospel is immoral.

Ciao

- viole

I've a post on the first part of your question ' what about those that never heard of Jesus ' . And the point is also IF it is true is it good news ? The news its self as that's what the 'Gospel ' literally means.

 

[John1.12]

Big deal. Everybody would sacrifice himself like that.

It is like depleting your bank account to save a poor friend, when you know the money will magically reappear after the weekend.

Was that really a sacrifice?

Ciao

- viole

But its good news isn't it ? For us . IF its true? . Which i believe it is .

 

[sayak83]

The' Gospel ' literally means 'good news ' .This is described in a nut shell in 1 cor .15 .1-4

1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Often Christianity is argued against for various reasons ,but negatively .the central message is actually 'good news ' literally.
Good news for the whole world. The message of how Jesus has died for our sins . Its 'good news '. Why do some treat it as bad news . Its a free gift also . You cannot earn it . Its the offer of eternal life.
So it's:
- eternal life ,
- forgiveness of sins ,completely ,past present and future .
- Peace with God
- Justification
- redemption
- Blessed with all spiritual blessings
- Its all a free gift
- cannot be earned
- recieved through faith
- No rituals,pilgrimage, special clothes ,bno joining an organisation , club , ' church ' no practices, no asceticism , to recieve all of the above .
Even if you argue that its not true, I don't believe its sensible to argue that the message ( Gospel ) is negative, or bad news ,if it is indeed true . Which of course I believe it is .
Thoughts?

The bad news is for those who do not believe of course. That's where the bad news is....

 

[John1.12]

I find Mark 16 actually ends at verse 8. After verse 8 it is added-on spurious verses.
Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who endures to the end is saved, so Mark 16:16 is wrong.
So, a saved person can fall away - 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Mark 16:15 is also wrong because at Matthew 24:14 Jesus said the gospel would be as a witness to the nations.
Jesus does Not say to every creature. Remember: new people are born each day, it is as a witness to earth's nations.
The 'tongues' of Acts chapter 2 is speaking about ' mother tongues ' or ' native languages '. Nothing Not understood.
So, the new ' tongues' of Mark 16:17 is wrong about 'new tongues' but about people being able to communicate with each other without the need of a translator at that time frame.
No 1st-century Christians handled snakes as in Mark 16:18 but instructed to declare God's Kingdom - Matthew 24:14
Also, I find Mark 16:19 is wrong because resurrected Jesus did Not ascend to heaven on that day.
For that matter, later that day Jesus gathered with his followers that evening in a locked room - John 20:19
So, Mark ends at Mark 16:8.

See i have a KJV and I read up to verse 20 just fine .
Mark 16
14¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
( John 20.19 )

 

[John1.12]

Yes

The bad news is for those who do not believe of course. That's where the bad news is....

but that doesn't change the fact that it ( the gospel) is good news . Wed all be lost if Jesus never went to the cross or resurrected.

 

[John1.12]

... and I find the 'gospel' Paul preached was the same ' good news ' that Jesus preached at Luke 4:43.
The theme of Jesus' teaching was about the 'good news of God's Kingdom' ( thy kingdom come......) - Daniel 2:44
That God's Kingdom government is the global or international solution to mankind's problems.
This is because Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

What do you think they are preaching in Luke 9.6 ?