It's simple! (to be or not to be revisited)

[dybmh]

The root cause is "intolerance".

The question that needs to be answered is: "Intolerance of what?"

 

[dybmh]

it lessens fear & hostility towards people who differ

Does this thread lessen hostility towards people who differ?

 

[Revoltingest]

Does this thread lessen hostility towards people who differ?

You could post a survey thread about it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Speaking of tolerance, from Axios:

Congress erupts over bill targeting new transgender member​

Rep. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.) set off a firestorm on Capitol Hill with a bill to keep Sarah McBride, soon to be the first transgender member of Congress, from accessing the women's bathrooms at the Capitol.​

It will be interesting to see how Rep. Mace votes on Trump's attorney general choice, Matt Gaetz.

 

[dybmh]

You could post a survey thread about it.

Or you could answer the question

 

[McBell]

Does this thread lessen hostility towards people who differ?

Nope.
YOU are being far to hostile for it to

 

[Revoltingest]

Or you could answer the question

The effect of a new thread on the small population
of posters who read it in a small forum in the internet
isn't knowable to me.
If the question isn't rhetorical, & really matters to you,
I gave you a tool to find the answer. Interested or not?

 

[dybmh]

Nope.
YOU are being far to hostile for it to

What is hostile in what I've written?

Could you be imagining it?

 

[dybmh]

Interested or not?

I'm not interested in starting a poll.

The effect of a new thread on the small population
of posters who read it in a small forum in the internet
isn't knowable to me

That's not what I asked.

 

[Heyo]

A better approach includes mutual understanding and mutual respect.

Agreed, but that requires the will to understand and be respectful on both sides.
What if one side is missing that will?

 

[Watchmen]

Talking down to those who disagree may make the speaker feel good, but, it has nothing to do with solving problems and producing lasting positive change.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the 2024 election results.

A better approach includes mutual understanding and mutual respect.

Was it “talking down” because you disagree with it? Don’t you think it was educational? I certainly learned a lot from the post.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm asking you to broaden the scope. What else could it be besides "simplistic superstition" and/or "misunderstanding science"?

Evil.

 

[dybmh]

Agreed, but that requires the will to understand and be respectful on both sides
What if one side is missing that will?

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the will to understand is not optional, it's autonomous. The mind automatically tries to understand its environment, circumstances, events, perceptions, etc...

I cannot look at this screen, for example, and NOT understand the words you've typed. I'd need hallucinogens for that.

 

[dybmh]

Evil.

Yes, I suppose that's useful for adding to the list.

Was it “talking down” because you disagree with it?

No. I agree with what is written, ( the gist of it ) but, I think it's irrelevant, it's totally missing the point. Uh. It's totally missing the point if the purpose is to reach the hearts and minds of those who are intolerant of non-typically-binary and non-gender-conforming individuals.

Don’t you think it was educational?

Not really. I'm fully aware of how messy gender is when it is considered physiologically.

I certainly learned a lot from the post.

Here's the problem with the post, ignoring the passive-aggressive tone:

The post claims "It's simple", but the quoted material is all about how "it's not so simple". That's going to be completely rejected as gibberish by those who are opposed to trans-rights. It'll be just another example of saying one thing, when you mean something else.

 

[crossfire]

Perhaps we could learn a lesson from those who proposed that the earth revolved around the sun-not the other way around? How were they treated by those who simply couldn't accept the observations and data?

 

[Heyo]

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the will to understand is not optional, it's autonomous. The mind automatically tries to understand its environment, circumstances, events, perceptions, etc...

I cannot look at this screen, for example, and NOT understand the words you've typed. I'd need hallucinogens for that.

I just read another OP about optical and acoustic illusions. With the right framing, (some) people are able to see what they want, no matter what's actually there. They don't need hallucinogens, just delusion. Bad or selective memory also helps. Do you remember all the ways listed how biological sex can be different from appearance? Now imagine a transphobe, who has a motivation to suppress knowledge, to be able to list the ways after a week. They'll probably forget everything.
Memory in humans doesn't work like a hard drive. Memory is consolidated by repetition. You don't rewrite a learned fact by replacing it once.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Not that it will help; homophobes are a resistant lot, but ...



It is indeed simple:

"respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers."​

Why I think this applies in a lot of cases it’s not that simple. As someone who is a bisexual woman and married to a lesbian I can tell you for free that there are some mad people in this “community” as well, because they use LGBT as a shield for their abusive and attention seeking behaviour. So I’m not going to believe everything that someone tells me about themselves from the jump.
It’s like when people say believe all women regarding any allegation that they make… nah!

 

[dybmh]

I just read another OP about optical and acoustic illusions. With the right framing, (some) people are able to see what they want, no matter what's actually there. They don't need hallucinogens, just delusion. Bad or selective memory also helps. Do you remember all the ways listed how biological sex can be different from appearance? Now imagine a transphobe, who has a motivation to suppress knowledge, to be able to list the ways after a week. They'll probably forget everything.
Memory in humans doesn't work like a hard drive. Memory is consolidated by repetition. You don't rewrite a learned fact by replacing it once.

I'm not sure which thread you're talking about. However, to be clear, I'm reading "people are able to see what they want, no matter what's actually there" as rather unlimited. "They can see whatever they want" does not match my understanding of optical illusions. There are loopholes in perception that can be exploited. These loopholes are specific circumstances that permit a specific illusion. The individual cannot "see whatever they want". I would expect the same of acoustic illusions. The individual cannot hear whatever they want.

In my experience, these perception anomalies are usually brought to show that perception isn't perfect and the individual's expectations shape their observations. In America we have an expression: "Seeing is not believing". These illusions are supposed to prove that wrong. You can't always trust what you see.

If possible, please confirm? The thread you're reading says: "They can see whatever they want" ? And there's scientific evidence and reasoning to back this up?

 

[dybmh]

Perhaps we could learn a lesson from those who proposed that the earth revolved around the sun-not the other way around? How were they treated by those who simply couldn't accept the observations and data?

" ... by those who simply ... "

When gender issues are simplified, trans people lose.

" ... those who simply cannot accept observations ... "

Um. You do realize what an anti-trans individual will say about this? ( I won't type it because it's cruel, and I don't want to see the words on my screen, if possible. )

"Perhaps we could learn a lesson ... "

The lesson that can be learned by the "flat-earther" analogy is that smart people are always going to be in the minority. Using "smarts" and "science" isn't going to help sway popular opinion. Hearts and minds are needed to effect political change. Hearts and minds are convinced with person-to-person relationships and connections with minorities. The lasting political change follows this. The most important thing to do, right now, is to encourage trans people to be out and proud and ... friendly.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So I’m not going to believe everything that someone tells me about themselves from the jump.
It’s like when people say believe all women regarding any allegation that they make… nah!

You do you. I would simply:

• "believe everything that someone tells me about themselves," and
• "respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers"

are not at all the same.