James Cameron is a better God than Yahweh!

[sojourner]

No it didn't, for exactly the reason you pointed out. Pandora is so perfect that the Industrial Revolution would be unnecessary. This is all but demonstrated in the film: there are no problems 22nd century humans can fix. This presumably includes all diseases, vermin, and farming and medical issues of any kind. There would be nothing to gain from application of technology.

Oh? Really! What happens when someone gets sick or injured? Have they the technology to mend the illness or injury? This is absurd, manipulative thinking. A fantasy world is just that -- a fantasy world. It cannot be real. Reality does not include perfection, since perfection is subjective to individuals.

 

[sojourner]

Of course it is, but that's irrelevant. The OP does have a point. The argument is that an all-loving, all-good god would want to create a world that was good for its inhabitants, and Earth is not a very good place to live for us. Some people have made up different worlds that show that better places are possible for a being with limitless power. Cameron's Pandora is one such place. Sure, it's not complete, and there are details that could affect things, but it shows that it's hard to consider Earth to be the work of an all-loving, all-good god.

That wasn't the argument, at all. Nonetheless, God did create the world good. The earth is a good place for us to live. It provides food and water in abundance. it provides means for the alleviation of physical and mental malady. The sun lights us and warms us. There are times and seasons by which we can measure our days. What's so bad?

I submit that we in the 21st century are far better equipped to take care of ourselves than the iron-age characters in the movie. We simply aren't shown the full spectrum of variables in such a world. But they would have to be many.

 

[sojourner]

Are you really suggesting that we lived in harmony with nature and each other and did not lack for anything before the Industrial Revolution? Really?

I'm suggesting that we were at least as well-off as the arboreal characters in the movie.

 

[sojourner]

no but you do believe in God do you not? Do people generally tell you that you need to live in reality because of your belief?

If I were to come on here and say I believe Pandora exists, or could exist, basing on how you've responded in this thread, you would tell me that I don't live in reality.

I'm sorry man, but that is hypocritical.

It's hypocritical to tell you that the belief that a fantasy movie is real is not realistic thinking?!:cover:

 

[PolyHedral]

Oh? Really! What happens when someone gets sick or injured? Have they the technology to mend the illness or injury? This is absurd, manipulative thinking. A fantasy world is just that -- a fantasy world. It cannot be real. Reality does not include perfection, since perfection is subjective to individuals.

It is not real. That is obvious, and not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that it could, be real, if someone with the skills and means wished to make it so. I don't believe you've actually argued against that. You've only repeated that it isn't real, and that, somehow, it can't be. You've not supported that assertion, though.

Most religious beliefs say that there exists someone with the skills, means and motivation to make it so... yet it isn't.

The earth is a good place for us to live. It provides food and water in abundance. it provides means for the alleviation of physical and mental malady. The sun lights us and warms us.

Pandora does all of these things, and then goes steps further. It does not merely provide the means to alleviate disease, it cures them automatically, no biology knowledge required! (Though this is mentioned more in the background materials.) It provides communication facilities rivaling the Internet as in-built part of the flora! It produces naturally occurring, self-repairing dwellings as space-efficient and intricately designed as our tallest skyscrapers! (with structural engineering to match.)

All of these are ways the Earth could have been improved but, mysteriously, wasn't.

I submit that we in the 21st century are far better equipped to take care of ourselves than the iron-age characters in the movie. We simply aren't shown the full spectrum of variables in such a world. But they would have to be many.

Why? You keep making this assertion, but haven't backed it up. Why is conflict between man and his environment somehow mandated by existence? Why can man and nature not perfectly co-exist? (As opposed to what's happened on Earth, where nature will attack you at the first opportunity.)

 

[Penumbra]

For humans, perhaps, but that would make diseases superfluous. How is rendering something superfluous an improvement of the world?

Why would rendering diseases superfluous be a bad thing?

 

[Falvlun]

I'm suggesting that we were at least as well-off as the arboreal characters in the movie.

Sorry sojourner, now that's the fantasy. I mean, we're talking about a time when feudalism was the norm. Tribes viciously slaughtering other tribes.

 

[Falvlun]

LOL

Or maybe he loves us both and doesn't have to choose.

It is possible. But I really was hoping that I was Daddy's favorite.

 

[silvermoon383]

PolyHedral, while I'm definitely right there with you when it comes to a love of Pandora, I can't agree with your conclusions. First off, Pandora's NOT a perfect world. In fact, it's a veritable death world, even for the Na'vi. One wrong move while walking and you can do anything from falling multiple stories to ending up inside of a carnivorous plant. One moment of inattention and you're a meal for palulukan, torok, or Eywa knows what else. Then there's the geology and astrophysics of the moon. Pandora's magnetic field is so chaotic that 1 minute a spot is protected from solar radiation, the next Alpha Centauri A's full EM force and the energy pent up inside of the magnetic field is blasting down on you like a blowtorch, frying you instantly. Then there's the tidal forces, active tectonics, and a whole lot of other stuff.

Earth's a crappy place to live because humans didn't take care of it. Pandora really will "spit you out dead with zero warning."

 

[Penumbra]

Earth's a crappy place to live because humans didn't take care of it. Pandora really will "spit you out dead with zero warning."

Most of the species that have ever lived on earth went extinct, and there have been several catastrophic mass-extinction events.

Humans have been fortunate to live during a pretty calm time, actually.

 

[sojourner]

It is not real. That is obvious, and not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that it could, be real, if someone with the skills and means wished to make it so. I don't believe you've actually argued against that. You've only repeated that it isn't real, and that, somehow, it can't be. You've not supported that assertion, though.

This is the way it is. This is the way it always has been. The entire existence of the world shows that it cannot be different. If you want to challenge that fact, you'll have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a different reality is possible. reality is what it is -- and it has always been what it has always been. To assert that reality can, somehow, be different, based upon a movie is to overlay a false hope over a real hope. Hope for a better future always takes into consideration the continuity of the entire story -- past and present, as well as the possible future. To say that reality could be like a movie is to completely discount that continuity -- is to take the future out of its rightful context.

 

[sojourner]

Most religious beliefs say that there exists someone with the skills, means and motivation to make it so... yet it isn't.

Xy says that God is always steadfast and trustworthy. Our Xian hope lies, not in wishing for a different reality, but in the expectation that God is and will be as God has always been, and that reality will continue to become for us in a better and better way.

 

[sojourner]

Pandora does all of these things, and then goes steps further. It does not merely provide the means to alleviate disease, it cures them automatically, no biology knowledge required! (Though this is mentioned more in the background materials.) It provides communication facilities rivaling the Internet as in-built part of the flora! It produces naturally occurring, self-repairing dwellings as space-efficient and intricately designed as our tallest skyscrapers! (with structural engineering to match.)

All of these are ways the Earth could have been improved but, mysteriously, wasn't.

It's not a mystery. It's very simple. This is the way reality is. Instead of wishing for a different reality that is out of context, why not actively work toward a better future, based upon reality as it is?

 

[sojourner]

Why? You keep making this assertion, but haven't backed it up. Why is conflict between man and his environment somehow mandated by existence? Why can man and nature not perfectly co-exist? (As opposed to what's happened on Earth, where nature will attack you at the first opportunity.)

You're saying that we are shown all the variables and interconnections of reality as it is shown us in the movie??? That's simply naivete.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry sojourner, now that's the fantasy. I mean, we're talking about a time when feudalism was the norm. Tribes viciously slaughtering other tribes.

And before feudalism?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I assumed they were a culture of hunter/gatherers, they chose Hometree because it best suited their needs, and who is to say there haven't been some nasty conflicts and wars between the other tribes?
It's a movie, and could have been anything. I can say the Ewoks appear to have it good, and they have a plentiful amount of resources for their tribe. You could also say Lovecraft created a more nightmarish scenario than Hell and the Devil. Kevin Smith even created the perfect convenience store to work with the employee able to close the store for a game of hockey on the roof.
We might as well debate which author created the best vampires.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

We might as well debate which author created the best vampires.

Anne Rice. Period

 

[Magic Man]

That wasn't the argument, at all.

Oh? Maybe the problem is you didn't understand the original argument then.

Nonetheless, God did create the world good. The earth is a good place for us to live. It provides food and water in abundance. it provides means for the alleviation of physical and mental malady. The sun lights us and warms us. There are times and seasons by which we can measure our days. What's so bad?

Disease, pestilence, murder, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, kill or be killed...should I go on or is that enough?

All you're doing here is focusing on the good stuff, and ignoring the bad. I mean, a lot of serial killers have very good qualities. They're smart, funny and seem down-to-earth. There's just that pesky part about them murdering people. The fact is the world we live in doesn't provide very good conditions for us.

I submit that we in the 21st century are far better equipped to take care of ourselves than the iron-age characters in the movie.

Why do you submit that?

 

[Magic Man]

It's not a mystery. It's very simple. This is the way reality is. Instead of wishing for a different reality that is out of context, why not actively work toward a better future, based upon reality as it is?

It's not wishing for a different reality. It's bringing up the idea that the god you believe in doesn't make sense when viewed in this context.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It becomes quite clear in the course of the film that the Na'vi live in harmony with nature. That isn't a metaphor; their entire environment appears perfectly suited to them. Although they have ostensibly Iron Age technology, if that, they do not use any survival strategy used by Iron Age humanity. (There is no suggestion of farming, or of animal husbandry, and the vague illustration of any sort of hunting suggests it's an occasional guilty pleasure.) Instead, everything is handed to them, to the point that the leaves of Hometree (a skyscraper-like, apparently natural dwelling) serve as hammocks. Neither is there any suggestion of a disagreement between either individuals or tribes of Na'vi. All conflicts that arise in the film are, in some way, caused by humans.

His movie reminded me of our American history of the classic English settlers and later Cowboys...against the various Indian tribes.