James Cameron is a better God than Yahweh!

[Willamena]

It's not wishing for a different reality. It's bringing up the idea that the god you believe in doesn't make sense when viewed in this context.

Well, sure, you're going to say that, because the god you believe in isn't reality.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, sure, you're going to say that, because the god you believe in isn't reality.

Actually, I'm going to say that because it's true. I say that because the point of the argument in the OP is that regardless of what reality is currently, we're talking about a being that could have made reality completely different.

 

[sojourner]

The fact is the world we live in doesn't provide very good conditions for us.

The fact is we're all still here, mostly in spite of ourselves.

 

[sojourner]

It's not wishing for a different reality. It's bringing up the idea that the god you believe in doesn't make sense when viewed in this context.

I don't view God in the context of non-reality. that's your take, and yours to deal with.

 

[sojourner]

Actually, I'm going to say that because it's true. I say that because the point of the argument in the OP is that regardless of what reality is currently, we're talking about a being that could have made reality completely different.

I'd like to see you prove that statement. God could only create what is real. And that is what God did.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Anne Rice. Period

Easily. All it takes is for me to read the name Lestat and everything for the day gets put on hold.

All you're doing here is focusing on the good stuff, and ignoring the bad. I mean, a lot of serial killers have very good qualities. They're smart, funny and seem down-to-earth. There's just that pesky part about them murdering people. The fact is the world we live in doesn't provide very good conditions for us.

Not too mention Hitler was an artist, vegetarian, and didn't drink that much.
But yeah this planet can be hostile towards us. I would say one of the few things we have going for us is a lack of any real natural predators. Humans get killed by various things here and there, spiders, snakes, crocodiles, and the occasional hippopotamus and bison, and the few man-eating sharks, but we have it pretty good sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain. But the various natural disasters, disease, and limited resources do tend to provide many struggles.
As for hostile environments in Pandora, there were the things that attacked Jack's avatar early in the movie, which to me suggest that the Na'vi are faced with challenges from Pandora.

 

[Magic Man]

The fact is we're all still here, mostly in spite of ourselves.

And? That doesn't make it a good place for humans to live.

I don't view God in the context of non-reality. that's your take, and yours to deal with.

That doesn't make sense. The argument here is that a god who is all-good and all-loving (like your god supposedly is) wouldn't create Earth for his children. There are much better options.

I'd like to see you prove that statement. God could only create what is real. And that is what God did.

OK, so what you're saying is that God is not omnipotent or anywhere close to it? He's basically just a very advanced alien with no real power over our universe as a whole? That's a different god than most Christians believe in.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact is we're all still here, mostly in spite of ourselves.

And a very small percentage of the world is actually suitable for human life. Most of the planet is covered in water, very large parts are covered by desert, it really doesn't take much to strip the land of fertility, which leaves us with just a tiny fraction of land that favors our existence, especially since we are dependent upon plant and animal life for our own survival, and all three are dependent upon water. The only reason we can survive in many of the places we do is because we have a good enough intelligence to overcome some of the harsher and unfavorable environments. We have ways of keeping warm to allow us to survive in places like Russia, and various farming methods such as irrigation and fertilization to make the land produce crop. And of course there is international trade, which can make natural disasters less devastating since aid can be flown in in a matter of hours, rather than people having to starve because storms, flooding, fires, insects, or whatever destroyed large amounts of crop.

 

[PolyHedral]

PolyHedral, while I'm definitely right there with you when it comes to a love of Pandora, I can't agree with your conclusions. First off, Pandora's NOT a perfect world. In fact, it's a veritable death world, even for the Na'vi. One wrong move while walking and you can do anything from falling multiple stories to ending up inside of a carnivorous plant. One moment of inattention and you're a meal for palulukan, torok, or Eywa knows what else. Then there's the geology and astrophysics of the moon. Pandora's magnetic field is so chaotic that 1 minute a spot is protected from solar radiation, the next Alpha Centauri A's full EM force and the energy pent up inside of the magnetic field is blasting down on you like a blowtorch, frying you instantly. Then there's the tidal forces, active tectonics, and a whole lot of other stuff.

Don't start me on the physics! I'm ignoring the flying mountains and plasma storm nonsense because 1) It's not actually relevant to my point, and 2) Cameron wasn't using electromagnetism at all realistically, and he probably knows it.

And you'll notice that quite a lot of that applies to Earth as well. Na'vi possibly aren't invincible, (but that's not the impression the movie gives you) but they have orders of magnitude advantage over the same time period of humanity.

And before feudalism?

We died, partly because we killed each other horribly.

His movie reminded me of our American history of the classic English settlers and later Cowboys...against the various Indian tribes.

I think it was supposed to. The very unsubtle point of it all is that the "in harmony with nature" lifestyle is a good thing, so he basically drew as many Native American and colonialist parallels he could get away with.

God could only create what is real.

That's not even logically coherent. It doesn't become real until after God creates it.

He's basically just a very advanced alien with no real power over our universe as a whole? That's a different god than most Christians believe in.

And it even falls into the exact same problem. You don't need supernatural power to make the world orders of magnitude better, only sufficiently advanced technology.

 

[Willamena]

Actually, I'm going to say that because it's true.

That's a given; but so is sojourner going to say what he says, for the same reason.

I say that because the point of the argument in the OP is that regardless of what reality is currently, we're talking about a being that could have made reality completely different.

Look at it this way: if "God" had made Pandora, would Pandora be reality?

If the answer is "yes," then it's not a God that is making anything different.

 

[Willamena]

You don't need supernatural power to make the world orders of magnitude better, only sufficiently advanced technology.

And what does that say, that man can make something better than what he (man) currently has? What does that say about "God"?

 

[Blackdog22]

And what does that say, that man can make something better than what he (man) currently has? What does that say about "God"?

It says God did a pretty lousy job.

If our imaginations can imagine something better than what God has currently created then their is room for improvement. Like Poly said about diseases, why did God create diseases or viruses? If he loves them as much as us then why the conflict? Why are diseases made to attack us and destroy our bodies? Why don't they feed off the air? Why don't they have another world in which they can live happily? It feels like the people arguing against Poly have little to no imagination...and typically put God in a box when convenient.

If God is incapable of creating as better world than we currently have then your hope of Heaven is completely hopeless as you are basically saying this is the "best" God can do, which our imaginations can trump.

 

[Magic Man]

That's a given; but so is sojourner going to say what he says, for the same reason.

I didn't say "I'm going to say that because I think it's true". I said "I'm going to say that because it's true".

Look at it this way: if "God" had made Pandora, would Pandora be reality?

If the answer is "yes," then it's not a God that is making anything different.

That makes no sense. The point is currently we have Earth. It is not a world an all-loving, all-good, omnipotent god would create for humans as his children.

 

[sojourner]

And a very small percentage of the world is actually suitable for human life. Most of the planet is covered in water, very large parts are covered by desert, it really doesn't take much to strip the land of fertility, which leaves us with just a tiny fraction of land that favors our existence, especially since we are dependent upon plant and animal life for our own survival, and all three are dependent upon water. The only reason we can survive in many of the places we do is because we have a good enough intelligence to overcome some of the harsher and unfavorable environments. We have ways of keeping warm to allow us to survive in places like Russia, and various farming methods such as irrigation and fertilization to make the land produce crop. And of course there is international trade, which can make natural disasters less devastating since aid can be flown in in a matter of hours, rather than people having to starve because storms, flooding, fires, insects, or whatever destroyed large amounts of crop.

Dear God! How much space do you think we need?!

 

[sojourner]

Don't start me on the physics! I'm ignoring the flying mountains and plasma storm nonsense because 1) It's not actually relevant to my point, and 2) Cameron wasn't using electromagnetism at all realistically, and he probably knows it.

But you have to take all that stuff into consideration when assessing the place. Otherwise your assessment isn't worth the bandwidth to broadcast it.

That's not even logically coherent. It doesn't become real until after God creates it.

Well, gee... I guess that if God didn't create it, it's not real!

 

[sojourner]

It says God did a pretty lousy job.

If our imaginations can imagine something better than what God has currently created then their is room for improvement. Like Poly said about diseases, why did God create diseases or viruses? If he loves them as much as us then why the conflict? Why are diseases made to attack us and destroy our bodies? Why don't they feed off the air? Why don't they have another world in which they can live happily? It feels like the people arguing against Poly have little to no imagination...and typically put God in a box when convenient.

If God is incapable of creating as better world than we currently have then your hope of Heaven is completely hopeless as you are basically saying this is the "best" God can do, which our imaginations can trump.

I don't think our imaginations can do better, unless they can bring the imagined to reality.

 

[sojourner]

It is not a world an all-loving, all-good, omnipotent god would create for humans as his children.

That's your opinion. Others don't happen to share it. Once again, if you don't like it here, you're welcome to go somewhere you do enjoy.

 

[Blackdog22]

I don't think our imaginations can do better, unless they can bring the imagined to reality.

I'm not God so I am not capable of creating worlds in a few days. However if my vision for a world can be better than Gods what does that say about the mind of God?

 

[sojourner]

I'm not God so I am not capable of creating worlds in a few days. However if my vision for a world can be better than Gods what does that say about the mind of God?

It says more about your poor attitude than it does about the mind of God.

 

[Penumbra]

It says more about your poor attitude than it does about the mind of God.

Do you believe that this world is the best possible world?