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Jehovah's Witness=Unbiblical Religion!

Spiderman

Veteran Member
ISAIAH 43:10

You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah,
“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and have faith in me
And understand that I am the same One.
Before me no God was formed,
And after me there has been none.
11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
12 “I am the One who declared and saved and made known
When there was no foreign god among you.
So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God.
You know what I mean.

I'm talking about your denomination, which was invented by man in the 19th century.

The Bible doesn't say the Bible is the final authority on anything. Not once, nada, zip!

Jehovah's witnesses were a 19th century church, started in that time, founded on the foundation of a man-made Solascriptura Doctrine, not supported in Scripture.

The early christians were not Bible christians , and not part of your little denomination! ;)
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
ah , so any scripture the church disagrees with it poo poo's it . the church is telling you that it can contradict scripture if it feels the need . as it was predicted that there would be misleading guidance which BTW started shortly after the death of the apostle's
acts 20:29

and now here you are tiring to do the same thing
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
OK, we get it you don't like the JW's. maybe even hate them .it was predicted
Matthew 24:
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, too, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many;
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
ah , so any scripture the church disagrees with it poo poo's it . the church is telling you that it can contradict scripture if it feels the need . as it was predicted that there would be misleading guidance which BTW started shortly after the death of the apostle's
acts 20:29

and now here you are tiring to do the same thing
If Jehovah's witnesses would stop judging and condemning the vast majority Christians, I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Besides, I can prove to you Jehovah's witnesses don't even follow the Bible! ;)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The Bible doesn't say the Bible is the final authority on anything. Not once, nada, zip!

Actually, it does...2 Timothy 3:16-17...”All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

If one’s understanding is based solidly in the Scriptures, that one is ‘fully competent and complete”.....nothing else is needed.

But many aren’t; Titus 1:16...they “publicly declare they know God, but they disown Him by their works, being disobedient.”
Christendom’s leaders have joined in the world’s conflicts, telling their flocks to kill not only their “enemy,” but even their own spiritual brothers.
They’ve been disobedient.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
If Jehovah's witnesses would stop judging and condemning the vast majority Christians, I wouldn't have a problem with them.

Besides, I can prove to you Jehovah's witnesses don't even follow the Bible! ;)
its one thing to use good judgement its altogether a different thing to pass a judgement. all you can prove is that you have a opinion
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Actually, it does...2 Timothy 3:16-17...”All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

If one’s understanding is based solidly in the Scriptures, that one is ‘fully competent and complete”.....nothing else is needed.

But many aren’t; Titus 1:16...they “publicly declare they know God, but they disown Him by their works, being disobedient.”
Christendom’s leaders have joined in the world’s conflicts, telling their flocks to kill not only their “enemy,” but even their own spiritual brothers.
They’ve been disobedient.
Not at all! A chair can have four legs, and need all four to be complete. A man is incomplete without the Scriptures. That doesn't mean Scripture is the final authority on anything.

Jesus said, " unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you"

At every last supper account Jesus said "this is my blood, this is my body".

Jehovah's witnesses don't follow the Bible where it doesn't suit their agenda!

Jesus gave the Apostles authority to forgive sins as Catholic priests do. Early Christians believed in the Sacraments!

Jehovah's witnesses are a man-made , unbiblical invented Religion!
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
If you have any teaching that contradicts God's word, then it is a lie. It really is that simple.

Let us see how Holy Scriptures indicates who has the truth. Firstly, it says that the road to life is cramped and narrow, and very few people are on it:

"“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."-Matthew 7:13-14.

Would any mainstream religions really have God's backing when Jesus said that the way to the truth is cramped and narrow and few are the people on it? So really, the narrow gate is on the road that leads to life.

Jesus prayed:

"Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."-Matthew 6:9. The true religion would put God's name above all else, sanctifying it before the people. Scripture says:

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”-Romans 10:13-15.

Which group of people are united in praising God's name Jehovah, and are witnessing about it to the nations? Powerful authorities in the Church have tried to hide God's name, removing it from their translations, replacing it with the titles, LORD and GOD, and even forbidding the use of it.

God's people love his name. The Catholic hierarchy does not:

"The Catholic hierarchy is seeking to eliminate the use of the divine name in their church services. Last year, the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments sent instructions on this matter to Catholic bishops’ conferences worldwide. The step was taken “by directive” of the pope.

This document, dated June 29, 2008, decries the fact that despite instructions to the contrary, “in recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel’s proper name, known as the holy or divine tetragrammaton, written with four consonants of the Hebrew alphabet in the form יהוה, YHWH.” The document notes that the divine name has variously been rendered “Yahweh,” “Yahwè,” “Jahweh,” “Jahwè,” “Jave,” “Yehovah,” and so forth. However, the Vatican directive seeks to reestablish the traditional Catholic position. That is to say, the Tetragrammaton is to be replaced by “Lord.” Moreover, in Catholic religious services, hymns, and prayers, God’s name “YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced.”

The current Pope Francs has gone as far as to forbid the use of God's name Jehovah in any service or song, and any forms of his name, including the transliteration from Hebrew of "Praise Jah" known into English as Hallelujah (Jah short for Jehovah).

On the other hand the Psalmist sang:

"Praise Jah! [Hallelujah] Praise the name of Jehovah; Offer praise, you servants of Jehovah."-Psalm 135:1.


Jesus said: "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."-Matthew 24:14.

The second part of the "Lord's" or "Model Prayer" asks us to pray for this kingdom to come: "Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth."-Matthew 6:10.

Who is preaching worldwide about this good news of God's kingdom along with sanctifying and bring the name of Jehovah to the people?

Jesus told his followers: "If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you."-John 15:19.

Which group of people has separated themselves from the world, its politics and its wars, and look to God's kingdom as the only real source of peace for humankind?

Jesus said you would know his disciples by this fact: "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”-John 13:35.

Which group of people are united worldwide in love by the "pure language" of truth.

"For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language,
So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,
To serve him shoulder to shoulder
.’"-Zephaniah 3:9.

Which group of people on earth:

1. Hold up God's word penned for us in the Holy Scriptures and look only to God's word as the source of truth.
2. Hold God's name Jehovah in reverence, and elevate it above all others, giving worship and godly devotion only to him.
3. Are witnessing about Jehovah's name in all the earth sharing abroad the good news of God's kingdom?
4. Are no part of the world in Satan's hands, its politics and its wars.
5. Are united worldwide by brotherly love?

The answer is extremely evident. When the people spread lies about Jesus and doubted who he was he simply stated: "Wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”-Matthew 11:19.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
From the following article found here: WHAT POPE Francis SAY ABOUT JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES WORLDWIDE


Catholic Conference discusses increasing Witnesses …
What leads so many people to become Jehovah’s Witnesses? This was the question asked by some clerics, as shown by the following quotations. For example, in Bologna, Italy, the ecclesiastical authorities, with the approval of the pope, held a conference to discuss ways to combat the success of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Catholic Church raised a “cry of alarm”, the newspaper La Republica says, because every year ten thousand Catholics become Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jesuit Giuseppe De Rosa said that “the religious point of view the most dangerous are Jehovah’s Witnesses. They come fully trained and always have the Bible in hand.” In an article that deals specifically with Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica said: “The first reason for the spread of this movement are the propaganda techniques [ie, in preaching]. On the one hand, the work is thorough, carried from house to house by people who are strictly trained in this work, and are deeply convinced [ …] ”

“The second reason for the success of JWs is the force of attraction of Jehovah’s message, because it can meet the needs, demands and expectations of the people of our time. First, it answers the need for certainty, which is much appreciated at a time where everything is uncertain and unstable. […] Above all, it is an absolutely safe revelation of the future and, therefore, all who accept it, experience freedom from fear and anxiety and can face the future with joy, with ensuring that they will survive the destruction that will come the great day of God’s judgment on a wicked world, to live in eternal happiness on earth. Second,

Jehovah’s message helps to overcome the concern of the individual against the woes of this world, announces that soon will end the unbearable situation of today, and soon there will be a new era and will be born a new world in which all the wicked will be removed now triumph. […] ” “The third reason for the success of JWs is that this movement gives its members a precise identity and strength, and is a place where they are greeted with warmth and a sense of brotherhood and solidarity.” The Vatican document analyzed the needs of people today, and the quote above the Jesuit journal La Civilta Cattolica showed that the message of Jehovah’s Witnesses meet those needs. This also showed Vittorio Messori Catholic writer in his recent book Scommesse sulla morte (a bet on death), who writes: “It makes us think that Jehovah’s Witnesses, is one of the religious denominations of the fastest growing in the world. It is among the religions that are practiced in many countries and perhaps […] is first in terms of fervor, zeal, activism, the ability to make proselytes. ” “And this presence, increasingly pronounced, is not limited to Christian tradition countries, but reaching the whole world, where in the name of Jehovah, and before long, they get results that are superior to those of Catholic missionaries, Protestants and Orthodox, who have worked for centuries. ” “This stunning expansive force is incomprehensible only to those who simply do not want to admit that […] with a course in how to understand the Bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses meet the real needs that other theologies do not meet.” “You can not get around the issue suggesting that the growth of witnesses is because they scare people. It is precisely the opposite:.

Unlike the ” official ” churches, JWs deny the existence of hell and preach the destruction and disappearance after death of the wicked and unbelieving. This may be an unpleasant prospect, but certainly less frightening than the threat of a terrible pain for all eternity in Hell.

“Yes, the God of Jehovah’s Witnesses is a loving God, and not one that terrorizes the people . The following quote is the Catholic magazine Mondo ERRE March 1986: “It must be said that Jehovah’s Witnesses are the first to live the faith they preach: they do not IRAM, do not smoke, do not accumulate wealth, remain outside the political discussions […] pay taxes. They live a virtuous and honest life, they are happy and helpful. All this has made people appreciate them ” It’s in Portuguese but a friend translated to English.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
If you have any teaching that contradicts God's word, then it is a lie. It really is that simple.

Let us see how Holy Scriptures indicates who has the truth. Firstly, it says that the road to life is cramped and narrow, and very few people are on it:

"“Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it."-Matthew 7:13-14.

Would any mainstream religions really have God's backing when Jesus said that the way to the truth is cramped and narrow and few are the people on it? So really, the narrow gate is on the road that leads to life.

Jesus prayed:

"Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."-Matthew 6:9. The true religion would put God's name above all else, sanctifying it before the people. Scripture says:

"For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”-Romans 10:13-15.

Which group of people are united in praising God's name Jehovah, and are witnessing about it to the nations? Powerful authorities in the Church have tried to hide God's name, removing it from their translations, replacing it with the titles, LORD and GOD, and even forbidding the use of it.

God's people love his name. The Catholic hierarchy does not:

"The Catholic hierarchy is seeking to eliminate the use of the divine name in their church services. Last year, the Vatican Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments sent instructions on this matter to Catholic bishops’ conferences worldwide. The step was taken “by directive” of the pope.

This document, dated June 29, 2008, decries the fact that despite instructions to the contrary, “in recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel’s proper name, known as the holy or divine tetragrammaton, written with four consonants of the Hebrew alphabet in the form יהוה, YHWH.” The document notes that the divine name has variously been rendered “Yahweh,” “Yahwè,” “Jahweh,” “Jahwè,” “Jave,” “Yehovah,” and so forth. However, the Vatican directive seeks to reestablish the traditional Catholic position. That is to say, the Tetragrammaton is to be replaced by “Lord.” Moreover, in Catholic religious services, hymns, and prayers, God’s name “YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced.”

The current Pope Francs has gone as far as to forbid the use of God's name Jehovah in any service or song, and any forms of his name, including the transliteration from Hebrew of "Praise Jah" known into English as Hallelujah (Jah short for Jehovah).

On the other hand the Psalmist sang:

"Praise Jah! [Hallelujah] Praise the name of Jehovah; Offer praise, you servants of Jehovah."-Psalm 135:1.


Jesus said: "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."-Matthew 24:14.

The second part of the "Lord's" or "Model Prayer" asks us to pray for this kingdom to come: "Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth."-Matthew 6:10.

Who is preaching worldwide about this good news of God's kingdom along with sanctifying and bring the name of Jehovah to the people?

Jesus told his followers: "If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you."-John 15:19.

Which group of people has separated themselves from the world, its politics and its wars, and look to God's kingdom as the only real source of peace for humankind?

Jesus said you would know his disciples by this fact: "By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”-John 13:35.

Which group of people are united worldwide in love by the "pure language" of truth.

"For then I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language,
So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,
To serve him shoulder to shoulder
.’"-Zephaniah 3:9.

Which group of people on earth:

1. Hold up God's word penned for us in the Holy Scriptures and look only to God's word as the source of truth.
2. Hold God's name Jehovah in reverence, and elevate it above all others, giving worship and godly devotion only to him.
3. Are witnessing about Jehovah's name in all the earth sharing abroad the good news of God's kingdom?
4. Are no part of the world in Satan's hands, its politics and its wars.
5. Are united worldwide by brotherly love?

The answer is extremely evident. When the people spread lies about Jesus and doubted who he was he simply stated: "Wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”-Matthew 11:19.
According to your very words, anything to contradict God's words is a lie, that would make God a liar, because He told the Israelites to murder and make graven images after telling them not to.

The Bible has many verses stating the exact opposite of other verses!

I prayed to the Holy Spirit daily for years, and he told me repeatedly that Jehovah's witnesses are man-made Religion with many falsehoods!

Jesus is not Michael the Archangel!


If I was the Devil, I would love groups like Jehovah's witnesses, who steer people away from the most important sacraments that Jesus instituted!

Jesus said "unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you"! At every last supper account Jesus said "This is my body, this is my blood"! Jehovah's witnesses changed God's words to suit their agenda of deceiving people!

Paul said if you eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ, without discerning the body and blood of Christ, you eat and drink condemnation upon yourself! Paul said receiving Holy Communion unworthily, was causing people to get sick and die. They would not get sick and die, if it was just symbolic!

The early Christians believed the Catholic teachings about the sacraments!

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins, like Catholic priests!


Jesus built a Church and promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against it! The early Christians did not believe what the Jehovah's witnesses believed, they had a valid priesthood, Bishops, Apostolic succession, and believed the Eucharist was the flesh and blood of Christ, like Jesus taught it was!

Jehovah's witnesses fight against Jesus, the Father, the Holy Spirit, the sacraments, and the Church that Jesus founded! Jesus said to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing!


It is obvious the Jehovah's witnesses are opposed to the Bible and Jesus Christ, are promoting Heresy, and Jesus said without the sacraments, people are spiritually dead, and have no life in them. By steering people away from the sacraments and the Church, Jehovah's witnesses are murdering souls, according to the words of Jesus!

I prayed to the Holy Spirit many times, and the Holy Spirit told me to never be a Jehovah's witness! It is false man-made tiny Religion with terrible news, and depressing message, and they make Jesus look like a terrible guide!

I'm trying very hard to love God, and most of the time I succeed! But when he lets so many religions rise up, that lead people astray, and doesn't tell people plainly the truth, and leave people in confusion, it is extremely cruel, and it should make me angry, because it is mean, annoying, highly irritating!

If Jehovah's witnesses would stop being so proud, arrogant, judgmental, and condemning most of Christians, I wouldn't have a problem with them!

The Bible with gross exaggerations, poetry, parables, hyperbole, symbolism, codes, and illustrations, often doesn't mean what it says, and isn't even supposed to be taken literal. The Bible makes that clear, and even says so! ;)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
the church is telling you that it can contradict scripture if it feels the need .
That violates Catholic teachings.

as it was predicted that there would be misleading guidance which BTW started shortly after the death of the apostle's
acts 20:29
Such as the JW's?

The reality is that the JW's cannot in any way trace their line of successors back to the Apostles, plus their hypocrisy is the fact that the JW's use the same biblical canon that was selected by the Catholic Church in the 4th century.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually, it does...2 Timothy 3:16-17...”All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
When that was written, the NT was not yet "scripture". And even the complete Tanakh wasn't yet canonized, thus it must be a reference to Torah.

Do the JW's adhere to the 613 Commandments given to Jews in Torah? The answer is "no".
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
The Bible canon was confirmed a couple of hundred years before the Catholic Church came into existence.

One Biblical Encyclopedia explains:

"Outside the Scriptures themselves there is evidence that, as early as 90-100 C.E., at least ten of Paul’s letters were collected together. It is certain that at an early date Christians were gathering together the inspired Christian writings.

We read that “near the close of the 1st cent., Clement bishop of Rome was acquainted with Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth. After him, the letters of both Ignatius bishop of Antioch and Polycarp bishop of Smyrna attest the dissemination of the Pauline letters by the second decade of the 2nd century.” (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, edited by G. W. Bromiley, 1979, Vol. 1, p. 603) These were all early writers—Clement of Rome (30?-100? C.E.), Polycarp (69?-155? C.E.), and Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st and early 2nd centuries C.E.)—who wove in quotations and extracts from various books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, showing their acquaintance with such canonical writings.

Justin Martyr (died c. 165 C.E.) in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (XLIX), used the expression “it is written” when quoting from Matthew, in the same way the Gospels themselves do when referring to the Hebrew Scriptures. The same is also true in an earlier anonymous work, “The Epistle of Barnabas” (IV). Justin Martyr in “The First Apology” (LXVI, LXVII) calls the “memoirs of the apostles” “Gospels.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 220, 139, 185, 186.

Theophilus of Antioch (2nd century C.E.) declared: “Concerning the righteousness which the law enjoined, confirmatory utterances are found both with the prophets and in the Gospels, because they all spoke inspired by one Spirit of God.” Theophilus then uses such expressions as ‘says the Gospel’ (quoting Mt 5:28, 32, 44, 46; 6:3) and “the divine word gives us instructions” (quoting 1Ti 2:2 and Ro 13:7, 8).—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1962, Vol. II, pp. 114, 115, “Theophilus to Autolycus” (XII, XIII).

By the end of the second century there was no question but that the canon of the Christian Greek Scriptures was closed, and we find such ones as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian recognizing the writings comprising the Christian Scriptures as carrying authority equal to that of the Hebrew Scriptures. Irenaeus in appealing to the Scriptures makes no fewer than 200 quotations from Paul’s letters. Clement says he will answer his opponents by “the Scriptures which we believe are valid from their omnipotent authority,” that is, “by the law and the prophets, and besides by the blessed Gospel.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. II, p. 409, “The Stromata, or Miscellanies.”

The canonicity of certain individual books of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been disputed by some, but the arguments against them are very weak. For critics to reject, for example, the book of Hebrews simply because it does not bear Paul’s name and because it differs slightly in style from his other letters is shallow reasoning. B. F. Westcott observed that “the canonical authority of the Epistle is independent of its Pauline authorship.” (The Epistle to the Hebrews, 1892, p. lxxi) Objection on the grounds of unnamed writership is far outweighed by the presence of Hebrews in the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) (dated within 150 years of Paul’s death), which contains it along with eight other letters of Paul."
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
As for the history that lead up the the formation of the Catholic Church by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine the same Encyclopedia:


"Less than 20 years after Jesus’ death, the apostle Paul indicated that efforts of Satan to cause division and turn men away from the true faith were “already at work.” (2 Thess. 2:7) As early as about 49 C.E., in a letter sent out to the congregations, the governing body noted: “We have heard that some from among us have caused you trouble with speeches, trying to subvert your souls, although we did not give them any instructions.” (Acts 15:24) So some within the congregation were vocal about their opposing viewpoint—in this case evidently over the issue of whether Gentile Christians needed to get circumcised and observe the Mosaic Law.—Acts 15:1, 5.

As the first century progressed, divisive thinking spread like gangrene. (Compare 2 Timothy 2:17.) By about 51 C.E., some in Thessalonica were wrongly predicting that “the presence” of the Lord Jesus was imminent. (2 Thess. 2:1, 2) By about 55 C.E., some in Corinth had rejected the clear Christian teaching regarding the resurrection of the dead. (1 Cor. 15:12) About 65 C.E., others said that the resurrection had already taken place, it being of a symbolic kind that living Christians experience.—2 Tim. 2:16-18.
There are no inspired records as to what took place within the Christian congregation during the next 30 years. But by the time the apostle John wrote his letters (about 98 C.E.), there were “many antichrists”—persons who denied that “Jesus is the Christ” and that Jesus is the Son of God who came “in the flesh.”—1 John 2:18, 22; 4:2, 3.

For over 60 years, the apostles had ‘acted as a restraint,’ endeavoring to hold back the tide of apostasy. (2 Thess. 2:7; compare 2 John 9, 10.) But as the Christian congregation was about to enter the second century, the last surviving apostle, John, died, about 100 C.E. The apostasy that had slowly begun to creep into the congregation was now ready to burst forth unrestrained, with devastating organizational and doctrinal repercussions.

Clergy and Laity

“All you are brothers,” Jesus had said to his disciples. “Your Leader is one, the Christ.” (Matt. 23:8, 10) So there was no clergy class within Christian congregations of the first century. As spirit-anointed brothers of Christ, all the early Christians had the prospect of being heavenly priests with Christ. (1 Pet. 1:3, 4; 2:5, 9) As to organization, each congregation was supervised by a body of overseers, or spiritual elders. All the elders had equal authority, and not one of them was authorized to ‘lord it over’ the flock in their care. (Acts 20:17; Phil. 1:1; 1 Pet. 5:2, 3) However, as the apostasy unfolded, things began to change—quickly.

Among the earliest deviations was a separation between the terms “overseer” (Gr., e·piʹsko·pos) and “older man,” or “elder” (Gr., pre·sbyʹte·ros), so that they were no longer used to refer to the same position of responsibility. Just a decade or so after the death of the apostle John, Ignatius, “bishop” of Antioch, in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, wrote: “See that you all follow the bishop [overseer], as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery [body of older men] as if it were the Apostles.” Ignatius thus advocated that each congregation be supervised by one bishop, or overseer, who was to be recognized as distinct from, and having greater authority than, the presbyters, or older men.

How, though, did this separation come about? Augustus Neander, in his book The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, explains what happened: “In the second century . . . , the standing office of president of the presbyters must have been formed, to whom, inasmuch as he had especially the oversight of every thing, was the name of [e·piʹsko·pos] given, and he was thereby distinguished from the rest of the presbyters.”

The groundwork was thus laid for a clergy class gradually to emerge. About a century later, Cyprian, “bishop” of Carthage, North Africa, was a strong advocate of authority of the bishops—as a group separate from the presbyters (later known as priests), the deacons, and the laity. But he did not favor the primacy of one bishop over the others.

As bishops and presbyters ascended the hierarchical ladder, they left below it the rest of the believers in the congregation. This resulted in a separation between clergy (those taking the lead) and laity (the passive body of believers). Explains McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia: “From the time of Cyprian [who died about 258 C.E.], the father of the hierarchical system, the distinction of clergy and laity became prominent, and very soon was universally admitted. Indeed, from the third century onward, the term clerus . . . was almost exclusively applied to the ministry to distinguish it from the laity. As the Roman hierarchy was developed, the clergy came to be not merely a distinct order . . . but also to be recognised as the only priesthood.”

Thus, within 150 years or so of the death of the last of the apostles, two significant organizational changes found their way into the congregation: first, the separation between the bishop and the presbyters, with the bishop occupying the top rung of the hierarchical ladder; second, the separation between the clergy and the laity. Instead of all spirit-begotten believers forming “a royal priesthood,” the clergy were now “recognised as the only priesthood.”—1 Pet. 2:9.

Such changes marked a defection from the Scriptural method of governing the congregations in apostolic days. Organizational changes, though, were not the only consequences of the apostasy."

Christ’s pure teachings are a matter of record—they are preserved in the Holy Scriptures. For example, Jesus clearly taught that Jehovah is “the only true God” and that the human soul is mortal. (John 17:3; Matt. 10:28) Yet, with the death of the apostles and the weakening of the organizational structure, such clear teachings were corrupted as pagan doctrines infiltrated Christianity. How could such a thing happen?

A key factor was the subtle influence of Greek philosophy. Explains The New Encyclopædia Britannica: “From the middle of the 2nd century AD Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans.” Once philosophically minded persons became Christians, it did not take long for Greek philosophy and “Christianity” to become inseparably linked.

As a result of this union, pagan doctrines such as the Trinity and the immortality of the soul seeped into tainted Christianity. These teachings, however, go back much farther than the Greek philosophers. The Greeks actually acquired them from older cultures, for there is evidence of such teachings in ancient Egyptian and Babylonian religions.

As pagan doctrines continued to infiltrate Christianity, other Scriptural teachings were also distorted or abandoned."

One factor was the spiritual contamination caused by the Greek doctrine of the immortality of the soul. As it took hold among
Christians, the millennial hope was gradually abandoned. Why? The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology explains: “The doctrine of the immortality of the soul came in to take the place of NT [New Testament] eschatology [the teaching on the “Last Things”] with its hope of the resurrection of the dead and the new creation (Rev. 21 f.), so that the soul receives judgment after death and attains to paradise now thought of as other-worldly.” In other words, apostate Christians thought that the soul survived the body at death and that the blessings of Christ’s Millennial Reign must therefore relate to the spirit realm. They thus transferred Paradise from earth to heaven, which, they believed, the saved soul attains at death. There was, then, no need to watch for Christ’s presence and the coming of his Kingdom, since at death they all hoped to join Christ in heaven.

Meanwhile, in about 313 C.E., during the rule of Roman Emperor Constantine, legal recognition was given to Christianity, much of which by this time had become apostate in its thinking. Religious leaders were willing to be put into the service of the State, and at first the State controlled religious affairs. (Before long, religion would control State affairs.) Thus began Christendom, part of which (the Catholic religion) in time became the official State religion of Rome. Now, the “kingdom” not only was in the world but was part of the world. What a far cry from the Kingdom that Christ preached!—John 18:36."
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Concerning apostolic succession:

Has an unbroken line of successors been traced from Peter to modern-day popes?

Jesuit John McKenzie, when professor of theology at Notre Dame, wrote: “Historical evidence does not exist for the entire chain of succession of church authority.”—The Roman Catholic Church (New York, 1969), p. 4.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “ . . . the scarcity of documents leaves much that is obscure about the early development of the episcopate . . . ”—(1967), Vol. I, p. 696.

Claims of divine appointment mean nothing if those who make them are not obedient to God and Christ

Matt. 7:21-23, JB: “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”
See also Jeremiah 7:9-15.

Have the claimed successors to the apostles adhered to the teachings and practices of Jesus Christ and his apostles?

A Catholic Dictionary states: “The Roman Church is Apostolic, because her doctrine is the faith once revealed to the Apostles, which faith she guards and explains, without adding to it or taking from it.” (London, 1957, W. E. Addis and T. Arnold, p. 176) Do the facts agree?


Identity of God

“The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.”—The Catholic Encyclopedia (1912), Vol. XV, p. 47.

“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

“There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 295.

Celibacy of the clergy

Pope Paul VI, in his encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus (Priestly Celibacy, 1967), endorsed celibacy as a requirement for the clergy, but he admitted that “the New Testament which preserves the teaching of Christ and the Apostles . . . does not openly demand celibacy of sacred ministers . . . Jesus Himself did not make it a prerequisite in His choice of the Twelve, nor did the Apostles for those who presided over the first Christian communities.”—The Papal Encyclicals 1958-1981 (Falls Church, Va.; 1981), p. 204.

1 Cor. 9:5, NAB: “Do we not have the right to marry a believing woman like the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?” (“Cephas” is an Aramaic name given to Peter; see John 1:42. See also Mark 1:29-31, where reference is made to the mother-in-law of Simon, or Peter.)

1 Tim. 3:2, Dy: “It behoveth, therefore, a bishop to be . . . the husband of one wife [“married only once,” NAB].”

Before the Christian era, Buddhism required its priests and monks to be celibate. (History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church, London, 1932, fourth ed., revised, Henry C. Lea, p. 6) Even earlier, the higher orders of the Babylonian priesthood were required to practice celibacy, according to The Two Babylons by A. Hislop.—(New York, 1943), p. 219.

1 Tim. 4:1-3, JB: “The Spirit has explicitly said that during the last times there will be some who will desert the faith and choose to listen to deceitful spirits and doctrines that come from the devils; . . . they will say marriage is forbidden.

Separateness from the world

Pope Paul VI, when addressing the United Nations in 1965, said: “The peoples of the earth turn to the United Nations as the last hope of concord and peace; We presume to present here, together with Our own, their tribute of honor and of hope.”—The Pope’s Visit (New York, 1965), Time-Life Special Report, p. 26.

John 15:19, JB: “[Jesus Christ said:] If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, because my choice withdrew you from the world, therefore the world hates you.”

Jas. 4:4, JB: “Don’t you realise that making the world your friend is making God your enemy?”

Resorting to weapons of war

Catholic historian E. I. Watkin writes: “Painful as the admission must be, we cannot in the interest of a false edification or dishonest loyalty deny or ignore the historical fact that Bishops have consistently supported all wars waged by the government of their country. I do not know in fact of a single instance in which a national hierarchy has condemned as unjust any war . . . Whatever the official theory, in practice ‘my country always right’ has been the maxim followed in wartime by Catholic Bishops.”—Morals and Missiles (London, 1959), edited by Charles S. Thompson, pp. 57, 58.

Matt. 26:52, JB: “Jesus then said, ‘Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’”

1 John 3:10-12, JB: “In this way we distinguish the children of God from the children of the devil: anybody . . . not loving his brother is no child of God’s. . . . We are to love one another; not to be like Cain, who belonged to the Evil One and cut his brother’s throat.”

In the light of the foregoing, have those who claim to be successors to the apostles really taught and practiced what Christ and his apostles did?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm giving a clear biblical defense of why the dead go on living, which you keep attacking.

Also, the Bible does contradict itself, because much of it was never to be taken literally, or used as a final authority on anything.

Much of Scripture was addressed to a particular people, at a particular time, in a particular cultural context, in another ancient language where some meaning is lost over time and in translation.

Much of Scripture is hyperbole, parable, symbolism, stuff not meant literal in meaning, poetry, and gross exaggerations, or statements not meant to be precise, or illustrations.

Just because Scripture was inspired by God, doesn't mean it all applies to everyone today. Neither does it mean everyone knows how to interpret it. Neither did Jehovah say Scripture is a final authority on anything.

The Bible is a Catholic church tradition, because nothing in the Bible says what the correct canon of Scripture is. The Catholic Church decided all that. The Christian Bible is a Catholic book!

Jesus said "listen to the Church". He didn't even say to read the Bible. The early Christians were not Bible Christians.

Jesus didn't leave us with a Bible. He left us with a Church.

Opposing the Church he founded, and starting man made Churches is unbiblical, and never supported by Christ.

Most of what Christ said and did isn't in Scripture. The Bible actually says that. ;)
You might want to read Catholic commentary about the 2 men called Lazarus. Lazarus | Catholic Answers
Best to you...:)(They are not the same and -- Catholic exegesis now relates that the beggar Lazarus (not Mary and Martha's brother) is a PARABLE. The two Lazarus's are not the same.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
You might want to read Catholic commentary about the 2 men called Lazarus. Lazarus | Catholic Answers
Best to you...:)(They are not the same and -- Catholic exegesis now relates that the beggar Lazarus (not Mary and Martha's brother) is a PARABLE. The two Lazarus's are not the same.
I knew Lazarus in the parable with the rich man, was not the same Lazarus who Jesus said to his sister "Your brother lives".

However, I knew it was a parable. What it means is open for debate!

It was likely not a true story, but why would Jesus give a parable about a man burning in hades, asking for water to be on his tongue, if dead don't go to a realm, where they have tongues, and can feel heat and flames??

Why would Jesus mislead people into believing the dead can go to a place of torment! And lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, and Abraham interacted with the rich man.

If the dead don't live and communicate, why give a misleading parable to confuse everybody??

Jesus was seen on Mount Tabor with Moses and Elijah! The dead live on!

Samuel told Saul he would soon join him in the world of the dead, and it happened.

In Revelation, Those martyred for their faith, were in Heaven , or some other realm, calling for God's vengeance on earth!

Scripture says we are one body in Christ. The dead righteous souls are still a member of the body of Christ!

Revelation speaks of a woman clothed with the Sun, in the Sky, standing on the Moon, crowned with stars, who battles a dragon!

The Bible gives examples of the dead living on, and Jesus said that those who believe in him, even if they die, they live!

And nothing in the Bible says that every tradition must come from Scripture!

The early Christians paid homage to the martyrs, and believed they were in Heaven interceding for us!


They actually have Biblical support for believing in that, and Church councils, guided by the Holy Spirit, approved of devotion to the souls in Heaven.

Every Church on the face of the earth for over 1500 years, paid homage to the holy souls in Heaven, the communion of Saints!

If Jesus let Christians , every Church go astray that long, after he promised he wouldn't let that happen, then he is a liar, and a lousy shepherd who can't be trusted!
;)

Jehovah's witnesses make God look terrible and depressing! ;)

Have a nice day! :)
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I knew Lazarus was not the person who Jesus said to his sister "Your brother lives".

However, I knew it was a parable. What it means is open for debate!

You need to speak clearly. You say you knew it was a parable. What was a parable? How you doing with drugs and medication these days? You're rambling, by the way, so I suggest you try to slow down and clear up which account you say you knew was a parable.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
You need to speak clearly. You say you knew it was a parable. What was a parable? How you doing with drugs and medication these days? You're rambling, by the way, so I suggest you try to slow down and clear up which account you say you knew was a parable.
I was talking about the poor man and Lazarus and the rich man in hades. It was a parable. But if the dead didn't live on or suffer in hades, why would Christ give that parable?

The rest of what I shared with you is in Scripture. Plenty verses confirm the dead go on living after death.

Which part of what I said was incoherent? You just don't like and can't handle the truth? ;)
 
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