Jehovah's Witness=Unbiblical Religion!

[YoursTrue]

In creation sons are born in time but in eternity of the past there was no time. The Son always has been and His Father is His source.

Jesus never claimed to have not been created, made, given life by his Father. The fact that the son of God was born to Mary demonstrates he was given birth as a son. God wasn't given birth by anyone. He needed to be fed by his mother. This all says something. God in heaven said Jesus was his son. Not his equal as God or part of a trinity. When Jesus said if you've seen him you've seen the father, he certainly meant he spoke for the father, represented him on the earth, this doesn't mean he was equal. Anyway, while myths may abound, Jesus couldn't feed himself as an infant. He couldn't speak Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic. He needed to be taught. His Father doesn't need to learn Hebrew, Greek, etc. Because He, the Father of Jesus, is God Almighty and Jesus is not equal to him and another part of the "Trinity." Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe JWs use the Bible but have a lot of misconceptions about what it says.

I believe I am not aware of what their foundation is.

Jesus is the foundation. He was authorized by his Father, the Almighty God.

 

[Brian2]

It's a matter of who we WANT to believe, you mean.

G-d knows why we believe what we believe.
First and foremost, it is about "who we are" .. what we were raised as.
Secondly, it is about our experiences in life .. who we meet, and where we travel to .. and our academic education.

Thirdly, we can follow our conscience, or we can follow our desires .. or a combination of these.

There is no need to follow "early Christians" or "early Jews", or "early Muslims".
We have been given intelligence to use. We can follow something blindly, or we can think for ourselves.
In the west, we are no longer forced to follow convention .. the history of Roman religion is through persecution and force.
That should ring alarm bells, if we are sincere in our quest for truth.

I want to believe what God said through the Jews in the OT and it's fulfilment in Jesus and what He did and said.
Many things ring alarm bells but I have learned that what the Church has done should not ring alarm bells since Jesus said the weeds would be in the Church till the end.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus never claimed to have not been created, made, given life by his Father. The fact that the son of God was born to Mary demonstrates he was given birth as a son. God wasn't given birth by anyone. He needed to be fed by his mother. This all says something. God in heaven said Jesus was his son. Not his equal as God or part of a trinity. When Jesus said if you've seen him you've seen the father, he certainly meant he spoke for the father, represented him on the earth, this doesn't mean he was equal. Anyway, while myths may abound, Jesus couldn't feed himself as an infant. He couldn't speak Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic. He needed to be taught. His Father doesn't need to learn Hebrew, Greek, etc. Because He, the Father of Jesus, is God Almighty and Jesus is not equal to him and another part of the "Trinity." Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Jesus was the unborn Son from eternity in His Father's form, with His Father's nature and was given birth in a human way as a man. The Son was sent to be a man, to step into the creation as a man and He was appointed to be God's firstborn. (Psalm 89:27)
He own all that the Father has (John 16:15) including the name, the glory and the nature of His Father. (Heb 1:1-4)
He is equal to His Father just as He is the image of His Father and has been His companion from eternity (a word that denotes equality) (Zech 13:7)
Only God is good, only God could be sinless and be the sacrifice for sin. This is why the Son became a man, for our salvation as our only saviour.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Many things ring alarm bells but I have learned that what the Church has done should not ring alarm bells since Jesus said the weeds would be in the Church till the end.

You confuse "the church" with political meddling.
How can "the law" keep changing all the time with ever changing "infallible" popes and council?
It is as if Jesus instructed to us to update our beliefs with every generation that passes, according to the current morals of the day.
Bible verses can be emphasised or ignored .. and that is why there are so many creeds around. We are all hypocrites, and turn a blind eye to that which doesn't suit us, and exaggerate other things that hold no benefit .. such as creating a stink about the nature of Jesus etc.

We criticise Jews that lived in the time of Jesus, but act in precisely the same way .. claiming the moral highground through false pretense.

 

[YoursTrue]

I want to believe what God said through the Jews in the OT and it's fulfilment in Jesus and what He did and said.
Many things ring alarm bells but I have learned that what the Church has done should not ring alarm bells since Jesus said the weeds would be in the Church till the end.

There are various sects and religions. Each of us must make a decision. I am of the mind that God hears and answers prayers in harmony with His will, in line with what Jesus said at John 17:3.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was the unborn Son from eternity in His Father's form, with His Father's nature and was given birth in a human way as a man. The Son was sent to be a man, to step into the creation as a man and He was appointed to be God's firstborn. (Psalm 89:27)
He own all that the Father has (John 16:15) including the name, the glory and the nature of His Father. (Heb 1:1-4)
He is equal to His Father just as He is the image of His Father and has been His companion from eternity (a word that denotes equality) (Zech 13:7)
Only God is good, only God could be sinless and be the sacrifice for sin. This is why the Son became a man, for our salvation as our only saviour.

I don't see that in the Bible, that Jesus was the "unborn Son from eternity in his father's form," etc. So anyway -- have a good evening.

 

[YoursTrue]

I want to believe what God said through the Jews in the OT and it's fulfilment in Jesus and what He did and said.
Many things ring alarm bells but I have learned that what the Church has done should not ring alarm bells since Jesus said the weeds would be in the Church till the end.

It's not even so much the past, but the now, what does a religion believe and encourage its members to do. How does it conduct itself.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was the unborn Son from eternity in His Father's form, with His Father's nature and was given birth in a human way as a man. The Son was sent to be a man, to step into the creation as a man and He was appointed to be God's firstborn. (Psalm 89:27)
He own all that the Father has (John 16:15) including the name, the glory and the nature of His Father. (Heb 1:1-4)
He is equal to His Father just as He is the image of His Father and has been His companion from eternity (a word that denotes equality) (Zech 13:7)
Only God is good, only God could be sinless and be the sacrifice for sin. This is why the Son became a man, for our salvation as our only saviour.

Jesus already settled that for us. He asked, why call me good? (remember that...?) He said only God is good. So what does that mean, how to take that? Since Jesus prayed to God his Father and said the Father is greater than he is, we can tell he was not God equal to God. He did, however, speak for the Father because he knew who he was. He came from heaven and was going back to heaven to be next to God. He was special, wasn't he? He was (is) the only begotten Son of God. He was in heaven with his Father before he came to the earth. We know that from what he said.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was the unborn Son from eternity in His Father's form, with His Father's nature and was given birth in a human way as a man. The Son was sent to be a man, to step into the creation as a man and He was appointed to be God's firstborn. (Psalm 89:27)
He own all that the Father has (John 16:15) including the name, the glory and the nature of His Father. (Heb 1:1-4)
He is equal to His Father just as He is the image of His Father and has been His companion from eternity (a word that denotes equality) (Zech 13:7)
Only God is good, only God could be sinless and be the sacrifice for sin. This is why the Son became a man, for our salvation as our only saviour.

Jesus was the equivalent of Adam before he sinned. Jesus did not sin, in fact was put to death because of his love for his heavenly Father. I'm not going into the scriptures now that show that Jesus (also known as the Word) had a beginning. Mankind has a beginning. Just reasoning on the matter, since Jesus was born as a human through Mary and God was his Father, there are scriptures to show that the son of God had a beginning before he came to the earth. Perhaps another time we can go into that in honesty and depth, with God's help. In order to understand the scriptures, one must have the help from God.

 

[Brian2]

You confuse "the church" with political meddling.
How can "the law" keep changing all the time with ever changing "infallible" popes and council?
It is as if Jesus instructed to us to update our beliefs with every generation that passes, according to the current morals of the day.
Bible verses can be emphasised or ignored .. and that is why there are so many creeds around. We are all hypocrites, and turn a blind eye to that which doesn't suit us, and exaggerate other things that hold no benefit .. such as creating a stink about the nature of Jesus etc.

We criticise Jews that lived in the time of Jesus, but act in precisely the same way .. claiming the moral highground through false pretense.

Those who say there is no trinity are making a big deal out of what was decided 2000 years ago. The Church cannot change the truth because people make a big deal about it being untrue. It is what the earliest Church taught about Jesus and what was written in the New Testament for the Church to believe.
That is usually not the only thing that most deniers have problems with. Changing one truth means that something else does not make sense and it has a domino effect on theology.
Popes are fallible as far as I am concerned, even when they speak "ex cathedra" (meaning in an infallible sense about the doctrines of the Church). The rule about the Pope being infallible was made up recently (1870) and Protestants, like myself, do not necessarily go by what the Pope says unless it conforms with what the Bible says. The Trinity does conform with the Bible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..It is what the earliest Church taught about Jesus and what was written in the New Testament for the Church to believe..

That is your belief..
My studies show me otherwise. The earliest "church" were the disciples and the one that originated in Jerusalem before they were expelled along with other Jews.

..in any case, I know you won't listen to anybody else .. you want to stick with Roman tradition.

 

[Spiderman]

Those who say there is no trinity are making a big deal out of what was decided 2000 years ago. The Church cannot change the truth because people make a big deal about it being untrue. It is what the earliest Church taught about Jesus and what was written in the New Testament for the Church to believe.
That is usually not the only thing that most deniers have problems with. Changing one truth means that something else does not make sense and it has a domino effect on theology.
Popes are fallible as far as I am concerned, even when they speak "ex cathedra" (meaning in an infallible sense about the doctrines of the Church). The rule about the Pope being infallible was made up recently (1870) and Protestants, like myself, do not necessarily go by what the Pope says unless it conforms with what the Bible says. The Trinity does conform with the Bible.

I wish every Protestant was like you. You are somewhat against the Church like me, but strike me as some one who would still defend the Church when she is wrongfully under attack, something I will do.

 

[metis]

The Trinity does conform with the Bible.

It may if one understands the Church's use of the concept of "essence".

 

[2ndpillar]

Those who say there is no trinity are making a big deal out of what was decided 2000 years ago. The Church cannot change the truth because people make a big deal about it being untrue. It is what the earliest Church taught about Jesus and what was written in the New Testament for the Church to believe.
That is usually not the only thing that most deniers have problems with. Changing one truth means that something else does not make sense and it has a domino effect on theology.
Popes are fallible as far as I am concerned, even when they speak "ex cathedra" (meaning in an infallible sense about the doctrines of the Church). The rule about the Pope being infallible was made up recently (1870) and Protestants, like myself, do not necessarily go by what the Pope says unless it conforms with what the Bible says. The Trinity does conform with the Bible.

According to Catholic doctrine, the church is built on the rock of Peter, whose supposed heir is the pope. If the pope doesn't know what he is taking about, then that reflects on the church. Per Isaiah 22:25, the heir of the Peter, the pope, who supposedly holds the keys of the house of David (Isaiah 22:22), will "fall" "in that day", which is the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), and those holding onto him, will be "cut off".

 

[Brian2]

We criticise Jews that lived in the time of Jesus, but act in precisely the same way .. claiming the moral highground through false pretense.

I don't see that thinking the truth is important can be called moral high ground.
If I used that to kill people that would be a different story.

 

[Brian2]

I don't see that in the Bible, that Jesus was the "unborn Son from eternity in his father's form," etc. So anyway -- have a good evening.

Every time it says that through Jesus all things were made or without Him not one things was made (came into existence), it tells us Jesus was from eternity.
When it says "In the beginning the Word was with God...." it tells us that.
When it identifies Jesus with YHWH it tells us that.
When Jesus said "Before Abraham was I am" it tells us that.
When Isaiah says the child will be called "Eternal Father" it tells us that.
When Micah said :
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel— One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.
it tells us that. (Some translations have "from days of long ago" but imo it should read "days of eternity" because of the rules of the Hebrew grammar.)
When Proverbs said:
English Standard Version
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
it tells us that. (Many people do not think that Prov 8:22 is about the Word because "wisdom" in Proverbs is female and lives with prudence. Also some translations make it that this wisdom was created. But God has always had wisdom and if it is about Jesus, we know that Jesus was not created with other verses anyway).
We know the the pre-human Jesus was in the form of God (Phil 2).

 

[Brian2]

It's not even so much the past, but the now, what does a religion believe and encourage its members to do. How does it conduct itself.

Don't worry the JWs also have plenty of weeds.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus already settled that for us. He asked, why call me good? (remember that...?) He said only God is good. So what does that mean, how to take that? Since Jesus prayed to God his Father and said the Father is greater than he is, we can tell he was not God equal to God. He did, however, speak for the Father because he knew who he was. He came from heaven and was going back to heaven to be next to God. He was special, wasn't he? He was (is) the only begotten Son of God. He was in heaven with his Father before he came to the earth. We know that from what he said.

Since Jesus is good we can tell that Jesus is God along with His Father.
The Father was filling all things and holding all power and authority and Jesus was the man serving Him.
Jesus was appointed to be firstborn (Ps 89:27) That messes up the insistence that "firstborn" means the one born first always in scripture and so messes up the JW interpretation of Col 1:15.
Zech 13:7, the word translated "companion" carries the meaning of someone who is equal.
And yes He owns all that the Father has (John 16:15) including the name, the glory and the nature of His Father. (Heb 1:1-4).
And yes He sits next to His Father and has all power and authority.
Surely you can do better than saying that Jesus is not good, when we know He is good.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was the equivalent of Adam before he sinned. Jesus did not sin, in fact was put to death because of his love for his heavenly Father. I'm not going into the scriptures now that show that Jesus (also known as the Word) had a beginning. Mankind has a beginning. Just reasoning on the matter, since Jesus was born as a human through Mary and God was his Father, there are scriptures to show that the son of God had a beginning before he came to the earth. Perhaps another time we can go into that in honesty and depth, with God's help. In order to understand the scriptures, one must have the help from God.

It sounds like you are saying Adam was good before he turned bad but Jesus was good all the time.
Or are you saying that Adam was bad from the start just like Jesus, so Jesus cannot be God because He was bad.
Of course when you say you need help from God to understand the scriptures you really mean "help from the Governing Body of JWs". God and the Governing Body are not equivalent.
I know the JW way to describe the atonement and saying that it atoned from one man's sins only, Adam's, and it does not make sense when compared to what the Bible tells us about it.