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Jehovah's Witness=Unbiblical Religion!
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
And basically, this is the cause of all the wars in the world.
1 - People have different beliefs
2 - People don't accept the standard of behavior in Christ.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Acts 5:1-4: “But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? . . . You have not lied to men but to God.”
According to St. Peter, lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. You do the math.
Hebrews 3:7-11: “Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, ‘Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion . . . where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts; they have not known my ways.’ As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
The Holy Spirit says the “fathers” of Israel put him to the test when they put God to the test in the wilderness. He says “I” was provoked. Who was provoked and put to the test in the wilderness? Subsequent verses make clear—and the NWT concurs, by the way—that it was almighty God.
Got the Trinity?
Recently, I had a long discussion with a Muslim about the Trinity. His problem with was not so much with biblical texts—and obviously so, since he didn’t accept the Bible as the word of God. He was, however, remarkably interested in looking at what the New Testament had to say about the topic.
His main problem was conceptual. And I find this generally to be the case with folks who reject the Trinity. They think Christians are claiming there are three Gods (which is what my Muslim friend thought) or that we are teaching a logical contradiction, (e.g., 3=1 and 1=3).
Neither is true, of course. But if we are going to help these people to understand, I find a little background information is essential in order to establish a conceptual foundation for discussion.
Processions and relations in God
In Catholic theology, we understand the persons of the Blessed Trinity subsisting within the inner life of God to be truly distinct relationally but not as a matter of essence, or nature. Each of the three persons in the godhead possesses the same eternal and infinite divine nature; thus, they are the one, true God in essence or nature, not three Gods. Yet they are truly distinct in their relations to each other.
In order to understand the concept of person in God, we have to understand its foundation in the processions and relations within the inner life of God. The Council of Florence (A.D. 1338-1445) can help us in this regard.
The Council’s definitions concerning the Trinity are really as easy as one, two, three . . . four. It taught there is one nature in God and that there are two processions, three persons, and four relations that constitute the Blessed Trinity. The Son “proceeds” from the Father, and the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.” These are the two processions in God. And these are foundational to the four relations that constitute the three persons in God. Those four eternal relations are:
Notice that before the creation, the Son was “with” the Father. Also, the Son addressing the Father and himself in an “I/thou” relationship is unmistakable. We have distinct persons here. “Father” and “Son” reveal a generative relationship as well. Yet this relationship between two persons clearly has no beginning in time, because it existed before the creation, from all eternity. Thus the relational distinction is real, and personal; but as far as nature is concerned, Jesus’ words from John 10:30 come to mind: “I and the Father are one,” in that they each possess the same infinite nature.
The Holy Spirit is also seen to be relationally distinct from the Father and the Son in Scripture inasmuch as both the Father and the Son are seen as “sending” “him.”
But when the Counselor [the Holy Spirit] comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me (John 15:26).
He will guide you into all truth (John 16:13).
So the relational distinction is real, and personal, but the Holy Spirit, like the eternal Son, is revealed to be God inasmuch as he is revealed to be omniscient. “He will guide you into all truth.” And as we saw above, he is elsewhere revealed even more clearly to possess the same infinite and divine nature as do the Father and the Son.
The anthropological analogy
Analogy is the theologian’s best friend in explaining the mysteries of the Faith. We will explore just two Trinitarian analogies that I have found helpful. In fact, it was these two analogies that helped my Muslim friend to say the idea of the Trinity “made sense” to him, even though he wasn’t ready to leave his Muslim faith—at least, not yet.
In his classic Confessions, St. Augustine writes:
I speak of these three: to be, to know, and to will. For I am, and I know, and I will: I am a knowing and a willing being, and I know that I am and that I will, and I will to be and to know. Therefore, in these three, let him who can do so perceive how inseparable a life there is, one life and one mind and one essence, and finally how inseparable a distinction there is, and yet there is a distinction. Surely a man stands face to face with himself. Let him take heed of himself, and look there, and tell me. But when he has discovered any of these and is ready to speak, let him not think that he has found that immutable being which is above all these, which is immutably, and knows immutably, and wills immutably (book 13, ch. 11).
In order to appreciate Augustine’s words, we must begin with three truths that undergird them. Without these, his words will fall on deaf ears.
In God we see the Father—the “being one” and first principal of life in the Godhead; the Son—the “knowing one”—the Word who proceeds from the Father; and the Holy Spirit—the “willing one”—the bond of love between the Father and Son who proceeds as love from the Father and Son. These “three” do not “equal” one mathematically; they are rather distinct realities, relationally speaking, just as my own being, knowing, and willing are three distinct realities in me. Yet in both God and man these three relationally distinct realities subsist in one being.
As Augustine points out, we can never know God or understand God completely through this or any analogy, but it can help us to understand how you can have relational distinctions within one being. And we can see this is reasonable.
The weakness inherent here—there are weaknesses in all analogies—is that our knowing, being, and willing are not each infinite and co-extensive as are the persons of God. They subsist in one being in us, but they are not persons.
Defending the Trinity
According to St. Peter, lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. You do the math.
Hebrews 3:7-11: “Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, ‘Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion . . . where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their hearts; they have not known my ways.’ As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
The Holy Spirit says the “fathers” of Israel put him to the test when they put God to the test in the wilderness. He says “I” was provoked. Who was provoked and put to the test in the wilderness? Subsequent verses make clear—and the NWT concurs, by the way—that it was almighty God.
Got the Trinity?
Recently, I had a long discussion with a Muslim about the Trinity. His problem with was not so much with biblical texts—and obviously so, since he didn’t accept the Bible as the word of God. He was, however, remarkably interested in looking at what the New Testament had to say about the topic.
His main problem was conceptual. And I find this generally to be the case with folks who reject the Trinity. They think Christians are claiming there are three Gods (which is what my Muslim friend thought) or that we are teaching a logical contradiction, (e.g., 3=1 and 1=3).
Neither is true, of course. But if we are going to help these people to understand, I find a little background information is essential in order to establish a conceptual foundation for discussion.
Processions and relations in God
In Catholic theology, we understand the persons of the Blessed Trinity subsisting within the inner life of God to be truly distinct relationally but not as a matter of essence, or nature. Each of the three persons in the godhead possesses the same eternal and infinite divine nature; thus, they are the one, true God in essence or nature, not three Gods. Yet they are truly distinct in their relations to each other.
In order to understand the concept of person in God, we have to understand its foundation in the processions and relations within the inner life of God. The Council of Florence (A.D. 1338-1445) can help us in this regard.
The Council’s definitions concerning the Trinity are really as easy as one, two, three . . . four. It taught there is one nature in God and that there are two processions, three persons, and four relations that constitute the Blessed Trinity. The Son “proceeds” from the Father, and the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.” These are the two processions in God. And these are foundational to the four relations that constitute the three persons in God. Those four eternal relations are:
- The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, which constitutes the person of God the Father.
- The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.
- The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit in the one relation within the inner life of God that does not constitute a person. It does not do so because the Father and Son are already constituted as persons in relation to each other. This is why the Catechism teaches, “[The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity] is Son only in relation to his Father” (CCC 240).
- The Holy Spirit is passively spirated of the Father and the Son, constituting the person of the Holy Spirit.
Notice that before the creation, the Son was “with” the Father. Also, the Son addressing the Father and himself in an “I/thou” relationship is unmistakable. We have distinct persons here. “Father” and “Son” reveal a generative relationship as well. Yet this relationship between two persons clearly has no beginning in time, because it existed before the creation, from all eternity. Thus the relational distinction is real, and personal; but as far as nature is concerned, Jesus’ words from John 10:30 come to mind: “I and the Father are one,” in that they each possess the same infinite nature.
The Holy Spirit is also seen to be relationally distinct from the Father and the Son in Scripture inasmuch as both the Father and the Son are seen as “sending” “him.”
But when the Counselor [the Holy Spirit] comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of me (John 15:26).
He will guide you into all truth (John 16:13).
So the relational distinction is real, and personal, but the Holy Spirit, like the eternal Son, is revealed to be God inasmuch as he is revealed to be omniscient. “He will guide you into all truth.” And as we saw above, he is elsewhere revealed even more clearly to possess the same infinite and divine nature as do the Father and the Son.
The anthropological analogy
Analogy is the theologian’s best friend in explaining the mysteries of the Faith. We will explore just two Trinitarian analogies that I have found helpful. In fact, it was these two analogies that helped my Muslim friend to say the idea of the Trinity “made sense” to him, even though he wasn’t ready to leave his Muslim faith—at least, not yet.
In his classic Confessions, St. Augustine writes:
I speak of these three: to be, to know, and to will. For I am, and I know, and I will: I am a knowing and a willing being, and I know that I am and that I will, and I will to be and to know. Therefore, in these three, let him who can do so perceive how inseparable a life there is, one life and one mind and one essence, and finally how inseparable a distinction there is, and yet there is a distinction. Surely a man stands face to face with himself. Let him take heed of himself, and look there, and tell me. But when he has discovered any of these and is ready to speak, let him not think that he has found that immutable being which is above all these, which is immutably, and knows immutably, and wills immutably (book 13, ch. 11).
In order to appreciate Augustine’s words, we must begin with three truths that undergird them. Without these, his words will fall on deaf ears.
- We believe in one, true God, YAHWEH, who is absolute being, absolute perfection, and absolutely simple. Our belief in the Trinity does not mean God is three or any other number of Gods.
- Humankind is created “in [God’s] image and likeness” (Gen. 1:26). From the context of Genesis 1, we know this “image and likeness” do not pertain to the body of man, because God has no body. Indeed, the divine nature cannot be material, because there can be no potency in God as there is inherent in bodies, so this “image and likeness” must be referring to our higher faculties or operations of intellect and will.
- It follows, then, that God is rational. He also is both intellectual and volitional.
In God we see the Father—the “being one” and first principal of life in the Godhead; the Son—the “knowing one”—the Word who proceeds from the Father; and the Holy Spirit—the “willing one”—the bond of love between the Father and Son who proceeds as love from the Father and Son. These “three” do not “equal” one mathematically; they are rather distinct realities, relationally speaking, just as my own being, knowing, and willing are three distinct realities in me. Yet in both God and man these three relationally distinct realities subsist in one being.
As Augustine points out, we can never know God or understand God completely through this or any analogy, but it can help us to understand how you can have relational distinctions within one being. And we can see this is reasonable.
The weakness inherent here—there are weaknesses in all analogies—is that our knowing, being, and willing are not each infinite and co-extensive as are the persons of God. They subsist in one being in us, but they are not persons.
Defending the Trinity
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That is a very interesting question. (I do not believe all ways lead to God, I do believe that He can hear prayers of the sincere.)
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You talk about respect. I wonder if Catholics respect Catholics. Like in the war in Ukraine.
By the way, although the Catholic Church approved of classifying certain books as appropriate, it was not the Catholic Church that wrote the scriptures, and there are books in a Catholic Bible that are not in Protestant Bibles. That's just for starters.
Wrong, completely wrong! In Revelation 3:12 (Jesus is now back in Heaven), 4 times Jesus refers to ‘his God’, saying, “my God.”
Brian, either you’re deliberately ignoring pertinent Scriptures, or you weren’t taught them. I hope it’s not the former!
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God's kingdom to come. He didn't tell his disciples "in the meantime, though, fight and kill your brothers and your enemies if you are commanded to by the world's rulers..."
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Protestants had no Biblical or holy spirit inspired authority for ripping the deuterocanonicals out of the Christian Bible. Russia is not a Catholic Country. Ukraine is not predominately Catholic either.
Very interesting questions, Nimos! You are a thinker!
id be glad to discuss the answers with you.
As far as God taking so long, there was a challenge made to God, in Genesis 3, that man doesn’t need to listen to, or obey, God. (Can you see that? It’s not too hard to discern.)
The only way for the issue / challenge to be answered satisfactorily, is to allow time to pass & let man try.
So Jehovah for the most part has stayed out of human affairs…. Except when He had to protect His people the Israelites, the nation the Messiah would be born in.
But Jehovah has basically allowed conditions to develop on their own.
Take care.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
"Certainly there is the Orthodox Church in both countries with large numbers of adherents.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do you believe the deuterocanonicals and the rest of the scriptures, if so, why?
cataway
Well-Known Member
umm were you by chance using a Ouija board when a so-called spirit was speaking to you ?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I don't use Ouija boards or summon spirits, or dabble in the occult!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I tend to think they are authentic Scripture because they were part of the Greek Septuagint, as well as the original Christian Bible, which Christians accepted for many centuries!
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Because they think Jesus is an angel.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
You say a very important thing here.."they think" or in other words "the believe" Jesus could an an angel, they dont say "I know for a fact Jesus was an angel "
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
It's thier official doctrine. And it's not at all biblical.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
"Shortly" after Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden for not obeying God, what happened to man next when they once again did not listen to or satisfy God?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
The funny thing is, the witnesses we talked to were reluctant to mention it. Their strategy is to make their beliefs sound like yours until you start to really dig into their theology. I thought it was kinda dishonest.
I’ll ask a related question (since it transcends politics): Is killing others who have different ideologies, or based on geography, Christlike or not? What has mainstream Christendom done? They are simple questions.