Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

[John53]

Are you saying that because of the Russian Yarovaya Action against all evangelical religions that you won't become a Christian?

Surely it might just be better to not become a Christian because you don't believe in it?

Probably bad wording on my behalf. The price of trying to keeps words to a minimum because of the bad mix of fat arthritic fingers and a tablet.

 

[oldbadger]

Probably bad wording on my behalf. The price of trying to keeps words to a minimum because of the bad mix of fat arthritic fingers and a tablet.

Ha ha! No probs!
My wife uses one of those mobile 'pens', and she taps away with it at an astonishing rate. I can't get on with those pen things, and so, like you, I have to try and hit the right letter without touching about three others.

The Russian situation is repeated in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and several other countries. Some of their legislation makes it a Capital offence to attempt to draw any away from a country's given religion, and like Russia some are trying to deter doorstep canvassing or private meetings of more than 'so many' folks at one time.

I feel sad for the JWs because, although they are supposed to obey the laws of the lands that they live in, that won't include any legislation that forbids canvassing and meetings.

 

[Deeje]

Read through your posts, stuff like whining about the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse being mentioned because that was in the past then a few posts later bring up the Spanish Inquisition, now that amused me. I only deem hypocrites as hypocrites.

Who was whining about the Royal Commission? It was held because this was a widespread problem that needed addressing. I said we had made mistakes about how those issues were handled back in the day, and had corrected them....what more did you require?

Since the Catholic Church was the main perpetrator in both the child abuse issue and the Spanish Inquisition, I was merely stating a fact to which history testifies. We didn't drag them into court, their victims did. We didn't dob them in for their torture and murder, history did.
You really want to put us in the same category? Whatever you think is a fair thing.....

Sure if you want but you should learn to read. Where did I condemn all Christians?

This thread is why I'll never be a Christian.

Ummm....you pretty much included all Christians in that statement.

 

[John53]

Ha ha! No probs!
My wife uses one of those mobile 'pens', and she taps away with it at an astonishing rate. I can't get on with those pen things, and so, like you, I have to try and hit the right letter without touching about three others.

I've tried one of the pen thingies back lack the hand eye coordination to get it go where I want.

The Russian situation is repeated in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and several other countries. Some of their legislation makes it a Capital offence to attempt to draw any away from a country's given religion, and like Russia some are trying to deter doorstep canvassing or private meetings of more than 'so many' folks at one time.

I feel sad for the JWs because, although they are supposed to obey the laws of the lands that they live in, that won't include any legislation that forbids canvassing and meetings.

I don't know enough about the Russian situation, I haven't heard both sides of the argument and the Western press isn't noted for treating the Russians all that fairly.

 

[oldbadger]

I've tried one of the pen thingies back lack the hand eye coordination to get it go where I want.

Snap!

I don't know enough about the Russian situation, I haven't heard both sides of the argument and the Western press isn't noted for treating the Russians all that fairly.

Sure thing.
In the UK we have laws which restrict the number of demonstrators on union picket lines, etc..... this numbers restriction, esp in private meetings, is quite common.
I don't actually know why JWs have been arrested in Russia, but I'm guessing it's all about door-to-door canvassing which is also banned in some parts of the UK, or private assemblies over a certain number.

Recent terrorist atrocities have really accelerated 'homeland security' policies around the World, and we've just got to trust our countries' governments to carry out these enforcements for good rather than for more power.

 

[John53]

Who was whining about the Royal Commission?

No one and that's not what I said. I said you were whining about the Royal Commission "being mentioned".

I was merely stating a fact to which history testifies.

As was I when you whined about me doing it. Is that not hypocrisy?

Ummm....you pretty much included all Christians in that statement.

I didn't include any Christians. Only person I mentioned was me. I will also never belong to many other groups of people, I'm not condemning their members either.

 

[John53]

Sure thing.
In the UK we have laws which restrict the number of demonstrators on union picket lines, etc..... this numbers restriction, esp in private meetings, is quite common.
I don't actually know why JWs have been arrested in Russia, but I'm guessing it's all about door-to-door canvassing which is also banned in some parts of the UK, or private assemblies over a certain number.

Recent terrorist atrocities have really accelerated 'homeland security' policies around the World, and we've just got to trust our countries' governments to carry out these enforcements for good rather than for more power.

The only case I've seen from an independent source was a Danish citizen arrested at a JW service in Russia. The story was scant on detail so if it was a visa violation or the act of organising the meeting or something completely different I don't know.

I wish door to door canvassing was banned in Australia. Not just JW's... any and all of them. Solar panel companies seem to be the most prolific at the moment.

 

[oldbadger]

The only case I've seen from an independent source was a Danish citizen arrested at a JW service in Russia. The story was scant on detail so if it was a visa violation or the act of organising the meeting or something completely different I don't know.

That's a real problem, I think.
Human Beings do tend to adjust incident details to suit agendas and interests.

I wish door to door canvassing was banned in Australia. Not just JW's... any and all of them. Solar panel companies seem to be the most prolific at the moment.

I don't mind callers. A double-glazing salesman called a couple of days ago, a charity canvasser the week before. I don't mind callers any more than telly adverts, IT adverts etc. Here on RF I get the ads, but they are mostly relevant to my interests........ they're actually useful.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Ummm....you pretty much included all Christians in that statement.

Ummm... Isn't this a dishonest statement, as you watchtower folk think you're the only Christians worth the title? I guess it's okay to consider them fellow Christians when it suits you, huh?

 

[John53]

That's a real problem, I think.
Human Beings do tend to adjust incident details to suit agendas and interests.

Yes indeed.

I don't mind callers. A double-glazing salesman called a couple of days ago, a charity canvasser the week before. I don't mind callers any more than telly adverts, IT adverts etc. Here on RF I get the ads, but they are mostly relevant to my interests........ they're actually useful.

I understand and accept advertising on websites I use and free to air TV and radio (not subscription TV but that's another story) but not unsolicited visits to my house to sell me products or religious interpretations I don't need or want. I wonder how they would feel if I interrupted their board meetings or church services to discuss my interpretation of Shakespeare's Hamlet?

 

[74x12]

Guess I will give you a more complete response,
you wont reasses just coz i say your are wrong.

There is a difference between "Christians" as a
whole, and JW as a cultic subset of Christianity.

I trust this is something to which you can agree.

I hate to see anyone "persecuted".

Side note, we observe the narrative that Christians are
told to expect persecution, to glory in it. No doubt
some provoke it, deliberately or otherwise.

I like the freedom i have in the USA, but i also
understand where the Chinese govt is coming
from. My comments on that have been dismissed
as bigotry, and whatever you said.

It would not hurt to see that there are other
perspectives than yours?

To stand idly by as Islamic extremeists seek converts
is to be suicidal.

Freedom of religion is not some absolute!

A Canadian man is in the news complaining
aboit his house arrest after fathering 149 kids!
"Freedom to practice religion" he calls it.

Christian ideas as such, bible reading is not a threat
to China.

JW teachings and practice go directly contrary to
the intetests of the state, Cninese or American.

One might well disagree on the exact degree of
forcefulness is called for, to tamp down ISIS
type Islamic radicalism or JW prosletizing,
but no sane argunent can be raised against the
state having a duty to discourage such practices.

Your idea that I lack concern for human rights,
or whatever, is misplaced.

Hope you can see the sense in that.

Well it's an improvement. I still disagree with you. I don't believe that Christians (or even JWs) are real threat to the Chinese government. They have the largest population in the world so there is no chance of ever converting everyone.

The Chinese government also persecutes the Falun Gong. The Falun Gong believe they must tell 100% truth all the time. So why does the Chinese government persecute them? Clearly they consider the truth to be a threat! Governments around the world (including the US government) now believe their strength is in deception. They do not believe that honesty is a good policy. I believe they're making a big mistake.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes indeed.

I understand and accept advertising on websites I use and free to air TV and radio (not subscription TV but that's another story) but not unsolicited visits to my house to sell me products or religious interpretations I don't need or want. I wonder how they would feel if I interrupted their board meetings or church services to discuss my interpretation of Shakespeare's Hamlet?

That suggests that your life at home is like a board-meeting or church service, though...... But you can deter callers that you don't want........ with clear signs that inform, and then if the wrong person rings your doorbell you don't even have to speak...... you can just point to your sign.
We wouldn't wish to put up any signs here. It's just us being us, there's no right or wrong in it, some of our neighbours can get so angry if a salesperson or canvasser calls....... I guess they're just susceptible to being so easily upset.

Folks are installing high tech doorbells around here that ring their mobile phones (wherever they are) and they can then talk to a caller to communicate and see who they are on-screen........ don't even have to get up....... that might reduce the 'nuisance' aspect of any call somewhat, whilst still accepting all .......

I guess it's all about personal choice.

 

[Deeje]

In the UK we have laws which restrict the number of demonstrators on union picket lines, etc..... this numbers restriction, esp in private meetings, is quite common.
I don't actually know why JWs have been arrested in Russia, but I'm guessing it's all about door-to-door canvassing which is also banned in some parts of the UK, or private assemblies over a certain number.

They not only banned our meetings and our ministry but they banned our Bible and confiscated our all property as well. Armed police invaded our meetings and treated our brothers like they were some kind of terrorists.
All under the auspices of us being "extremists"......the least extreme people and probably among the country's most law abiding citizens were arrested, not because JW's are a threat, but because we disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church......so we naturally become enemies of the state.
I think it was only last year when Putin commended a Witness family with a citizenship award. This is crazy.

Recent terrorist atrocities have really accelerated 'homeland security' policies around the World, and we've just got to trust our countries' governments to carry out these enforcements for good rather than for more power.

I have no problem with police doing their job protecting the public from terrorism threats and radicalized extremists.....but they know full well that we pose no threat to anyone but the ROC in Russia.

 

[Deeje]

I wish door to door canvassing was banned in Australia. Not just JW's... any and all of them. Solar panel companies seem to be the most prolific at the moment.

unsolicited visits to my house to sell me products or religious interpretations I don't need or want.

You do understand that you can just tell them not to call again.....? The last thing we want to do is antagonize anyone. Its a peaceful message we bring and if you don't want them to come, simply tell them that you don't want them to call again. We try to keep account of people like yourself so that we don't interrupt your day or make you feel hostile. We are not that unreasonable.

 

[John53]

That suggests that your life at home is like a board-meeting or church service, though......

Why not, it's where I conduct my private business like watching speedway bikes on TV, discussing stuff on internet forums, getting told what to do by the Mrs etc etc

But you can deter callers that you don't want........ with clear signs that inform, and then if the wrong person rings your doorbell you don't even have to speak...... you can just point to your sign.
We wouldn't wish to put up any signs here. It's just us being us, there's no right or wrong in it, some of our neighbours can get so angry if a salesperson or canvasser calls....... I guess they're just susceptible to being so easily upset.

Folks are installing high tech doorbells around here that ring their mobile phones (wherever they are) and they can then talk to a caller to communicate and see who they are on-screen........ don't even have to get up....... that might reduce the 'nuisance' aspect of any call somewhat, whilst still accepting all .......

I guess it's all about personal choice.

I think a do not knock register would be better, we have a do not call register which has cut back 95% of my nuisance telemarketer calls, about the only ones I get now are from scammers. I might suggest it to my local MP but then again I can't even get the local council to refill the bags in the dog waste bin.

 

[John53]

You do understand that you can just tell them not to call again.....? The last thing we want to do is antagonize anyone. Its a peaceful message we bring and if you don't want them to come, simply tell them that you don't want them to call again. We try to keep account of people like yourself so that we don't interrupt your day or make you feel hostile. We are not that unreasonable.

Maybe you should advise people of that when you first arrive because I had no idea.

 

[oldbadger]

They not only banned our meetings and our ministry but they banned our Bible and confiscated our all property as well.
Armed police invaded our meetings and treated our brothers like they were some kind of terrorists.
All under the auspices of us being "extremists"......the least extreme people and probably among the country's most law abiding citizens were arrested, not because JW's are a threat, but because we disagree with the Russian Orthodox Church......so we naturally become enemies of the state.
I think it was only last year when Putin commended a Witness family with a citizenship award. This is crazy.

I have no problem with police doing their job protecting the public from terrorism threats and radicalized extremists.....but they know full well that we pose no threat to anyone but the ROC in Russia.

I'm very sad to read about this.

During the Cold War years JWs were driven underground, but once the walls came down religion was given a little more freedom. The JWs now number about 175,000 (?) throughout the Soviet Union but I don't expect that the Orthodox Church there has grown much by comparison. This has probably caused extreme envy, etc.

After reading how the Soviets treated folks in Georgia, Chechnya and the Ukraine it really does seem like a good idea for small religious, political and cultural groups to get their heads down, well down, until political swings back to religious freedom. Russia won't be influenced by any international body, I reckon.

In the OT God often gave direction and guidance for survival, and your friends need to survive, but they never gave in to Nazis in the death camps and so all I can do is think of them and hope for the best for them....... that's my way of praying, you see.

 

[oldbadger]

Why not, it's where I conduct my private business like watching speedway bikes on TV, discussing stuff on internet forums, getting told what to do by the Mrs etc etc

We all need protection from that............ being bullied by the Mrs....

See? If your Mrs thinks you've watched too much speedway, or IT perusal, she can send you down the shops, or into the garden.......... and you're worried about some student calling who wants you to sign a Direct Debit for $3 a month to save donkeys in Africa. I like getting asked to sign bank orders for lost ponies, water bore holes which lower the water table thus needing more bore holes, food shipments to ports held by terrorists etc because I get my dose of weekly mirth out of of it. The last student who wanted a monthly gift off me for saving dangerous dogs (whatever) discovered that her charity's CEO earns £150,000 pa because I googled it all on the doorstep in about 45 seconds.

Without these callers my world might be a much more staid and glum place to live in.

Please please don't get 'em banned.

I think a do not knock register would be better, we have a do not call register which has cut back 95% of my nuisance telemarketer calls, about the only ones I get now are from scammers. I might suggest it to my local MP but then again I can't even get the local council to refill the bags in the dog waste bin.

They'll never make it law here, I reckon, 'cos all the political parties leaflet drop before elections. You see? It'll always be perfectly legal to knock at your door to ask, 'please may I give you this?'
If nicked for it, all the defendant has to tell the judge is,' Yer 'onner, I just wanned ter give this 'ouse'older a nice brochure on our scrap metal collection service, is all....'

etc etc......

 

[Hockeycowboy]

There is every reason to construe JWs as a cult

A penchant for misinterpreting dates and times...

Manichaen....

JW a positively odious force

corruption in doctrine....

errors of the JWs unacceptable

deviant belief

a catalogue of heresy

Just what the Jews thought about Jesus. (Except for the ‘follower of Mani’ thing.)

I myself believe that they are extremely harmful.

Why? Just how are we “extremely harmful”? If you ever find yourself in a bloody conflict, you can be assured that JW’s won’t be shooting at you.

We love Jesus too much, to disobey Him. How come, since most of Christendom worships Jesus as God, they don’t listen to Him, in loving their brothers? And even their enemies? Their reputation is in supporting war of their respective countries! What reasoning do you use to justify those actions?

 

[Deeje]

I'm very sad to read about this.

During the Cold War years JWs were driven underground, but once the walls came down religion was given a little more freedom. The JWs now number about 175,000 (?) throughout the Soviet Union but I don't expect that the Orthodox Church there has grown much by comparison. This has probably caused extreme envy, etc.

After reading how the Soviets treated folks in Georgia, Chechnya and the Ukraine it really does seem like a good idea for small religious, political and cultural groups to get their heads down, well down, until political swings back to religious freedom. Russia won't be influenced by any international body, I reckon.

In the OT God often gave direction and guidance for survival, and your friends need to survive, but they never gave in to Nazis in the death camps and so all I can do is think of them and hope for the best for them....... that's my way of praying, you see.

Much appreciated OB.
I just read this.....Russia: Sweeping Arrests of Jehovah’s Witnesses

Injustice is always hard to deal with but it has never stopped us in the past and will not stop us now.