Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

[Mox]

But nothing more is deserved, when it's often treated abroad that we Americans are culture-less and ignorant.

Well people who treat Americans like that are complete morons.

I would treat you as if you lived three doors down from me.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I gave you what the flag stands for, and what the spirit of our nation is. Not the actions of our government in (relatively) recent administrations. The spirit has been lost sight of, I won't argue against that, but what our nation strove to be is still symbolized by the flag. More people in our nation - the man-child in the oval office especially - need to remember that.

(As an aside, I wish I could have lived in your area. Never got to make it that far north, or to any of the nations of the UK.)

 

[Audie]

The persecution of any denomination or faith is unacceptable.
Period.

In the UK there is growing antipathy for Muslims, as well as in many other western nations, so this issue is not restricted to Russia or the JW's.

People here are responding irrationally to fear of terrorism and of being culturally/ethnically marginalised in their cities and towns.

They are told by right wing mouthpieces that their children will lose out on jobs healthcare and education access because foreigners and non indigenous natives, especially the 'breeder' Muslims, will mop it all up for themselves. They are told that the Muslims will install an Islamic Theocracy in the UK eventually. All of this is utter bull.

What these right wing berks wont show you is evidence that not only are Muslims human, with the same dreams fears and needs as other humans, but evidence that Muslims, individuals, are often extremely kind and decent people.

Here is an example.


The first man is a Sikh, explaining what he saw, the Muslim man remained anonymous, btw.

Daemonize much?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Its a strange thing, but so many others seem to be able to identify sun worship in Roman Catholicism except Roman Catholics.....

Is it hiding?

That depends on where you look I guess.

Did Jesus tell his disciples to do this? If so, where will I find that?

When Jesus broke the bread at his last Passover, what shape was that bread?
Was it round like the sun? Was that symbol of the sun held in a monstrance?

Or did you never wonder where those halos came from?

Can you tell me why there is an Egyptian obelisk in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square? That obelisk is a symbol of the sun god Ra. The sun god in Babylon was Shamash. Same god...different cultures, united at the Vatican.

Sun worship was prevalent in Rome when the Emperor declared Roman Catholicism to be the new state religion. In order to convert his pagan citizens to "Christianity", they were permitted to keep their symbols and festivals under a thin "Christian" veneer. This apostasy from Christ's teachings was foretold by the very "Lord" they claimed to worship. He will declare to them "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)

Yep, you sure know more about what Catholics believe than Catholics. Shall I tell you about what JWs believe now, just to demonstrate how patronising you sound?

 

[Audie]

Well, we are obedient to our governments in all the important ways....we just will not be controlled in our thinking or actions when it comes to serving our God. If you want to be controlled in that way, that is entirely your choice. The Chinese government is not exactly enthusiastic about freedom though, is it?

The only way you can get people to behave in a way that offends normal human sensibilities is to use propaganda. Whip up emotions and dehumanize your enemy.....then it becomes your duty to kill them, because you're the good guys.....right? We see no good guys....we just see murderers and we don't want to join them in a blood bath.
But, say the nation you were born in, decided to go to war with the nation you live in now...where would your loyalties be? Who would you be standing "squarely behind"? just curious....



Ah, "overachievement" is a very important concept to Chinese people I have noticed....probably because the culture is built around the importance of achievement leading to wealth and status....having endured poverty for so long under communism its not surprising. Parents often boast about their children's achievements as if somehow they should bask in the glory.

I had the privilege of studying the Bible with three Chinese children at the request of their mother who was not a Christian but wanted to expose her children to Christianity in what was now their homeland. Their father made sure that they had the best possible education and each went on to university, with a view to gaining a successful career....and the trappings that go with it. None of them could get a job in the fields for which they had degrees....but each of those kids chose to become Jehovah's Witnesses....and not one of them gained employment in the professions for which they were trained and qualified. But they turned out to be fantastic human beings who love their God and serve him in whatever capacity they can. They earn a modest living and are very happy. If you ask them if they are disappointed about not slaving for a corporation and having wealth and status due to their education, they will just laugh at you. Our material needs are small.
A wise person once said...."The best things in life are not things".



Yes, its called neutrality....you know like Switzerland was "neutral" in the last World War. It means not taking sides and it means not killing other humans for any reason, which is rather barbaric in this day and age, don't you think? Shouldn't we have achieved a more mature way to deal with our issues?



Oh, I don't know.....perhaps not having jails full of drug addicts, theives and murderers might be nice. Having people pay their taxes might be a plus too....and what about alcohol fueled violence which plagues every nation? Police might have little to do, which means they wouldn't need as many and it would save the government a pot of money. JW's pose no terrorist threat either......so its not all negative.....and besides we form only a small portion of the population, we would hardly be missed in the armed forces, I can assure you. Who wants soldiers they can't indoctrinate?

...taken from late in your post.. the thing about best
things in life, laugh at etc....

It is not an either / or. Be poor and uneducated but be happy; be rich and educated but miserable. Be an atheist with no "spiritual" values, lost n' wandering,
or be a JW and fulfilled.

I would not laugh at your friends, for them to laugh at
me is rather cold and mean spirited, dont you think?

Anyway..

Americans tend to think that they have "freedom" and
other, benighted countries, do not. While I would not say it is even-even, Americans are well bound with red
tape, and Chinese may enjoy freedom in ways
Americans do not.

But sure, Chinese govt keeps a tight rein. And,
I would say based on history, has to. The civil
war that ended in 1949, say, was incredibly
destructive. (thanks, USA, for making it worse)

Oh, and thanks,USA, for my present home.
Thank you Imperial Britain who via Hong Kong
made so much possible for me.

There is a whole lot more to "overachievement"*
than what you suggest. Immigrants to the USA
from some countries-Iran, India, Korea, say-
do far better than other groups. Mexico, say.
It is a deep seated cultural thing. Mormons are
higher achievers than JW,

"Neutrality" can be a fine thing. Not so much during
a home or other invasion. Given a choice bewteen
""neutral" persons present, and someone with
the will to fight, I will take the one with the
normal human instinct, not propagandized out of them,
to resist force with force.

Anyone in a country who takes a free ride, gets
the benefits but will not contribute when times
get touch is, to me, beneath contempt.

Regardless; my point was that JW are not the
kind of citizens China wants. I gave other reasons.
"Who wants soldiers who wont fight" is another,
volunteered by you.

"Jails full" etc. To the extent that a way of life
encourages good citizenship, I am for it.
I dont drink, do drugs etc, if JW dont, good.
If crime rate is lower than the public at large
(is it) then great. Of course, atheists also
do a lower crime rate.

Mormons believe in and practice clean living.
I think their religion is really dumb, but, I do
respect them for their social conscience.

so its not all negative.....and besides we form only a small portion of the population,

Far be it from me to say JW is all bad. Where
the balance point comes I guess varies
with individuals, and with their impact on the
community.

I see it as a net negative, and the Chinese govt
does too. (we dont consult eachother; for
my preference, they can go jump in the lake)

Anyway, nice exchanging a few snark free and
interesting words with you. Lets keep it up.

If you dont yet see why China would want to
suppress the growth of JW we can try some more.
While withholding my pure adulation (to put it mildly)
for the "chicom" govt in Beijing, I do understand
and agree with their pov.


*you might find this of interest. dont dwell on the
word "superior", just read it, fyi and all.

It is all VERY familiar.

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

 

[Audie]

Well people who treat Americans like that are complete morons.

I would treat you as if you lived three doors down from me.

A lot of Americans do the stereotype.

Here is another bit of boorish behaviour that
does not make a good impression:

Go to Paris and observe the herd of loud
aggressive Chinese women stocking up on
luxury / designer items, the LV, Chanel, Hermes,
etc. They just buy from a list, in those elegant shops
like it was walmart. It is to take back and resell
at a profit of course.

When I saw what was going on, I fled without
getting the bag I wanted. I wished for a bit I
were a blonde, so I wont look like one of those.

 

[Audie]

I have explained quite clearly our position on these things. You seem to equate what I said with being better than anyone else......not so. We just view things a bit differently. We do have a very low crime rate however, if you just want stats. (USA) Apparently atheists rate below Catholics and Protestants in the top 3....

Prison Incarceration and Religious Preference

Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%

Atheists, 0.1%

Dang, them JWs beat us there.

 

[Audie]

This has been thrashed out in the Supreme Court. It isn't about disrespect, its about the sacred nature of the cloth and the 'religious' connotations attached to its adoration. I am a Christian and we honor no flag of any nation.

" In a 1943 decision, West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court determined that a group of Jehovah’s Witnesses who objected to the flag salute and mandatory pledge recitation for religious reasons could not be forced to participate.1 This means that public school students who choose not to join in the flag salute for reasons of conscience may not be compelled to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. . . .
In the Barnette decision, however, the Court reversed course, declaring:

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.3

The Pledge of Allegiance has been a source of controversy for other reasons as well. Some students and parents view the words "under God" in the Pledge as government endorsement of religion under the Establishment Clause.4 This argument had failed in the courts until 2002 when a panel of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that state-mandated recitations of the pledge in public schools were unconstitutional because of the words "under God."5 Most legal experts agree that this ruling will be overruled -- either by the full circuit court or by the U.S. Supreme Court. In a number of past decisions, the Court has viewed references to God in patriotic exercises and on our money as "ceremonial deism" that does not rise to the level of government establishment of religion prohibited by the First Amendment."

faqs

So would you uphold one part of that ruling and not the other? I'm glad you are not my judge....and be glad that I am not yours. Are your gods in that pledge?



Are you serious? You think that in America, where voting is not compulsory, that people care about voting? Tell them who is worth voting for? Talk to the hundreds of thousands who do not vote because they just couldn't be bothered to support the lies of their politicians any longer.



Now that is just plain funny....you honestly believe than anyone has a leg to stand on when a government makes a law that they disagree with? What country do you live in again? La La Land?



We are unarmed....and we don't believe in violence...so where is this threat that we pose? Funny how people are suspicious about what others do when they would do it themselves....you sound like more of a threat than we would ever be.



Anyone can pick out any religion or organization and point out the misdemeanors or mistakes made by individuals....either you never make them, or you believe everything anyone tells you.
If criminal activity is uncovered in our ranks, (and we are not immune to individuals going bad and breaking the law) we will disfellowship any person who brings reproach on Jehovah's name by breaking the law unrepentantly.
The Bible is full of those who broke the law and were duly punished. Who said we were perfect.



Me either...how amazing that you think you represent everyone else.....?



And where has that got you, I wonder? Did the fact that you voted give you some special privileges? Your tax dollars will continue to be spent unwisely and there's not a thing you can do about it....or hadn't you noticed?



I am not American...it amuses me when people assume that everyone is American. I assure you I am very grateful NOT to live in America for more reasons than I can count.



We went to court and fought for religious freedom in all the nations that tried to take it away from us. It was done through all the legal means we had at our disposal. It makes the news and people are made aware of the victories we have scored, not only for our own religious freedom, but for everyone else as well...you included. Not surprisingly, you seem unaware of this.

http://www.historynet.com/what-we-owe-jehovahs-witnesses.htm

Have a nice day.....

Nothing unusual about people mixing up the symbol
for the substance of something.

We are unarmed....and we don't believe in violence..

I am about as physically unintimidating as an adult
can be. Violence is definitely not my thing.

I have experienced it, though, and am very lucky
to even be alive. Certainly scarred me for life,
mentally at least.

Much as I loathe the idea of "guns", I bought one
and learned to use it.

"Never again". I will die, or someone else will,
before I will let that happen again.

Chacun a son prope, and all. (put an accent over the "a".)

 

[Audie]

Its a strange thing, but so many others seem to be able to identify sun worship in Roman Catholicism except Roman Catholics.....

Is it hiding?

That depends on where you look I guess.

Did Jesus tell his disciples to do this? If so, where will I find that?

When Jesus broke the bread at his last Passover, what shape was that bread?
Was it round like the sun? Was that symbol of the sun held in a monstrance?

Or did you never wonder where those halos came from?

Can you tell me why there is an Egyptian obelisk in the middle of a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square? That obelisk is a symbol of the sun god Ra. The sun god in Babylon was Shamash. Same god...different cultures, united at the Vatican.

Sun worship was prevalent in Rome when the Emperor declared Roman Catholicism to be the new state religion. In order to convert his pagan citizens to "Christianity", they were permitted to keep their symbols and festivals under a thin "Christian" veneer. This apostasy from Christ's teachings was foretold by the very "Lord" they claimed to worship. He will declare to them "I never knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23)

I've nothing against catholics, and it surprises me how
many Christians are so against them.

I dont know if your take on "sun worship" makes any
sense at all, but then, I see no reality or sense in
any religion. It all looks pretty ridiculous, adult fairy
tales being taken so seriously.

I am not, tho, going to take a quick glance at some selected
photos and come to some deep conclusion about
what they mean. I dont think that way, nor should you or
you or you. At least, not if one wants to be realistic and fair minded.

 

[John53]

You seem to equate what I said with being better than anyone else......not so.

No need for me to equate anything, that is what you said.

We just view things a bit differently. We do have a very low crime rate however, if you just want stats. (USA)

Nice try lol. That table represents 4.65% of the total U.S. prison population at the time which makes it not very helpful. And for it to have any meaning at all you would also need to work out the percentage of each in the law abiding population at the time as well.

Apparently atheists rate below Catholics and Protestants in the top 3...

No, it's actually None/Atheist/Unknown but at least you were able to get a bit more Catholic bashing in.

 

[Deeje]

I would not laugh at your friends, for them to laugh at
me is rather cold and mean spirited, dont you think?

You misunderstood.....I wasn't inferring that they would laugh at you personally, but laugh at the idea that earning pots of money makes a person successful. They have seen their counterparts pushed into "overachievement" and then working ridiculous hours to earn the kind of money that the Chinese consider to equate to a successful life. They live a simple but fulfilling one and can't see the point in all that stress, fulfilling parents' dreams and not their own.

There is a whole lot more to "overachievement"*
than what you suggest. Immigrants to the USA
from some countries-Iran, India, Korea, say-
do far better than other groups. Mexico, say.
It is a deep seated cultural thing. Mormons are
higher achievers than JW,

It is true that opportunity for improvement in many countries is limited. My son-in-law travels to the Philippines to recruit tradesmen for the company he works for. The company finds them to be excellent workers who will put in 110% effort in order to be able to send money home to their families. They are provided with accommodation, vehicles and phones and a good income if they produce good work. Wages here are very good and it is life altering for the ones chosen to come to Australia for this opportunity to pull their families out of poverty.

I believe anyone can be a "high achiever" if they are focused to where the final result or goal may lead them. Sometimes it isn't about money. Sometimes its about challenging yourself to push past your limitations.

"Neutrality" can be a fine thing. Not so much during
a home or other invasion. Given a choice bewteen
""neutral" persons present, and someone with
the will to fight, I will take the one with the
normal human instinct, not propagandized out of them,
to resist force with force.

We are non-violent people who will seek peaceful solutions wherever we can. But we do not see risking our lives to protect material things as worth the price. "Things" are not worth dying for.

Personal self-defense, or defending a loved one or someone who is being attacked is a different matter. We will step in and try to protect them from an assailant because we could not live with ourselves if we stood by and did nothing. That is our choice to put our life on the line to protect someone who cannot protect themselves. This is in line with what Jesus said we should do.
"No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends".

But nationally, we would not join a military force and kill people who are "on the other side" just because someone made them our enemy. We would not drop bombs on innocent women and children just because our government told us to. We would not travel to the other side of the world to kill someone on their own soil who poses no personal threat to us on ours. Wars are not usually fought over high principles....they are fought over material resources and power....neither of which is worth killing a human being for.

We are not pacifists....but we are not violent or hot headed either. Resistance can take many forms. JW's are resisters in ways that many cannot see or appreciate.

Anyone in a country who takes a free ride, gets
the benefits but will not contribute when times
get touch is, to me, beneath contempt.

What "free ride" do you imagine that is?

Regardless; my point was that JW are not the
kind of citizens China wants. I gave other reasons.
"Who wants soldiers who wont fight" is another,
volunteered by you.

When you see the emphasis on the military in Asian countries, particularly nations like China and North Korea, it is understandable why they don't want JW's to undermine the total control they exercise over their citizens. Justice in those nations is non existent. They have no god but their government, so any who are not worshipping the military god, must be eliminated.

It is interesting how the Christian message is getting into China though. Many students come to free countries like Australia and are exposed to other ideas at university. If the message reaches their hearts, they take it back to China with them and it is spread quietly by word of mouth. When God is behind something....nothing can stop it.
No government can force people to stop worshiping God. This is something that takes place in the heart.

"Jails full" etc. To the extent that a way of life
encourages good citizenship, I am for it.
I dont drink, do drugs etc, if JW dont, good.
If crime rate is lower than the public at large
(is it) then great.

We are taught to love God and to obey him. That means living the same kind of life that Jesus lived....simple, with no great emphasis on material things or wealth, because these things compete for time and attention, so we can easily become distracted from the course that Jesus set for us.

Of course, atheists also
do a lower crime rate.

Not in the stats I have seen.

Mormons believe in and practice clean living.

So do we. When the AIDS epidemic hit in the 80's, JW's were the most protected of all people. We do not tolerate practicing homosexuals in our ranks, or drug addicts, drunkards, sexually immoral people or those who break the law. If they are exposed as such, we will remove them from our brotherhood.

Anyway, nice exchanging a few snark free and
interesting words with you. Lets keep it up.

I am usually a very reasonable person....but if someone is snarky to me, I will sometimes return serve...it is a fault of mine and one that I am constantly working on.

*you might find this of interest. dont dwell on the
word "superior", just read it, fyi and all.

It is all VERY familiar.

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

Yes I see many familiar traits. With the Chinese family that I associated with, the Mom was mainland Chinese and Dad was Hong Kong Chinese. They were very hard working and the children were left on their own a lot. The oldest son was supposed to be in charge of his siblings and by and large they were the most self disciplined children I have ever met.
Their Mom was an ancestor worshipper where as Dad was not religiously inclined, except where gambling was concerned. I was not aware that gambling was such a problem for the Chinese until I began hearing some awful stories on the news. Its a horrible addiction.

I guess when you grow up believing that overachievement is normal, its hard to identify it so that you don't push your own children too hard. There is a balance in there somewhere and I think its hard for people born into two cultures to find it.

 

[Deeje]

I've nothing against catholics, and it surprises me how
many Christians are so against them.

I am not against Catholic people either, in fact the majority of people I have studied the Bible with were Catholic. It is where I have gleaned most of my information about them. I aim my arrows at the church, not the people. Some were so guilt ridden that they expected to go to hell just for just speaking with us. It wasn't until God spoke to them by means of his word that they saw the truth and unburdened themselves of all that guilt. No one has anything to fear from the truth. Half truths are where the real damage is done.

Guilt is a useless emotion unless it is put to work correcting a mistake or error. Our conscience is not designed to torture us every day...it is designed to let us know when something is wrong and needs fixing.

I am not, tho, going to take a quick glance at some selected
photos and come to some deep conclusion about
what they mean. I dont think that way, nor should you or
you or you. At least, not if one wants to be realistic and fair minded.

I didn't take quick glances at anything either. I listened and evaluated what these people told me about their beliefs and how they were raised to see God as a big ogre in the sky, just waiting for an excuse to roast people in hell. How can anyone love a god like that?

It was always disturbing to me that Catholic people didn't know the difference between a catechism and a Bible. Many thought they were the same thing.

They knew what their church taught, but not the Bible. I had many people tell me that they would like to see what the Bible has to say on the things that bothered them....but they never imagined that it would be so different to what they had been taught all their lives in Catholicism.

I had a lady once show me a picture of the Virgin Mary standing on the clouds, up in the sky. Her home was full of statues and icons. She was very devout and showed me the picture so reverently and was completely perplexed when I asked her why Mary would appear as a statue and not as her real self? It had never occurred to this lady because she was so used to seeing Mary in the form of a statue that she never imagined her as a real person. Would the real Mary do that? This is why I began to despise Catholic teachings. Perfectly lovely, trusting individuals, so horribly misled. It was always a pleasure to see them cast off those shackles of fake Christianity and come into the light....to get to know the loving Father that Jesus taught us about.

I like to go to the 'horse's mouth' to get my information so that I get the whole story and not just one side of very distorted information. History is more damning to Roman Catholicism than anything we could say about them.

Google the Spanish Inquisition and ask yourself if Christians could really justify such treatment as representatives of Christ on earth? No punishment in Israel's laws required torture or even incarceration. Punishment was to fit the crime, and rehabilitation was the objective whilst compensating the victim. Torturing people into confessions and then murdering them for crimes they did not commit is not Christ-like. I have no idea who their god is......I just know that he isn't mine.

 

[John53]

We do not tolerate practicing homosexuals in our ranks, or drug addicts, drunkards, sexually immoral people or those who break the law. If they are exposed as such, we will remove them from our brotherhood.

Peace, love, intolerance and ostracisation.....

 

[YeshuaRedeemed]

I wish I could protect them. I believe in religious liberty.

 

[Deeje]

Peace, love, intolerance and ostracisation.....

Have you become this thread's sniper John 53?

We have peace and love because we do not tolerate those who want to use their religion as an excuse to practice what God condemns. I don't see anyone with a big stick forcing anyone to break God's law...do you? Those people who want to do that are not welcome in our brotherhood and we make no apology for that. The ones who are welcome can come from any of those descriptors as long as it is in their past and they have no desire to repeat their error. God is forgiving as long as we don't use his forgiveness to keep doing what we know is wrong.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't support persecution. I would however support outlawing any sect that prohibits blood transfusions.

Blood transfusions have killed more folks than any refusal of them. You need to check up on this stuff more deeply.

Me? Yeah...... if required they can pump it into me by the gallon...... so no agenda with me. How about you?

There are plenty of dead JWs who would be alive now if they were not JWs.

So those who died in any cause of yours are martyrs, whilst any JWs who died are not?

So I would ascribe you as a hypocrite.

Oh.... the irony!!! Well, at least you gave me a chuckle, right there.

Most of the worlds dangerous cults originated in America, .............

You need to brush up on your history.

And your title claims that Deism is dead........... Now just you have a look at my title! You need to brush up on that 'n' all.

 

[John53]

Have you become this thread's sniper John 53?

Aimed squarely at hypocrisy.

This thread is why I'll never be a Christian.

 

[Deeje]

Aimed squarely at hypocrisy.

Whose hypocrisy? Are we the only people in the world whom you deem to be hypocrites?
How many atheists are hypocrites?.....can I use that as an excuse to condemn all atheists?

This thread is why I'll never be a Christian.

Your choice. But I fear you are making you decision on an incomplete evaluation of the evidence.....or maybe you just have your nose out of joint? Was it something I said...?

 

[John53]

Whose hypocrisy? Are we the only people in the world whom you deem to be hypocrites?

Read through your posts, stuff like whining about the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse being mentioned because that was in the past then a few posts later bring up the Spanish Inquisition, now that amused me. I only deem hypocrites as hypocrites.

How many atheists are hypocrites?.....can I use that as an excuse to condemn all atheists?

No idea. Sure if you want but you should learn to read. Where did I condemn all Christians?

Your choice. But I fear you are making you decision on an incomplete evaluation of the evidence.....or maybe you just have your nose out of joint? Was it something I said...?

Nose out of joint on an internet forum lol. I've been around since fidonet and 2400bps modems, I'd be insane if I took any of it serious, throw your best insult, I'm a cynical old emotionless sod. This stuff is to fill in time between sitting by the river or woodworking. One must use ones retirement time wisely.

 

[oldbadger]

This thread is why I'll never be a Christian.

Are you saying that because of the Russian Yarovaya Action against all evangelical religions that you won't become a Christian?

Surely it might just be better to not become a Christian because you don't believe in it?