Jesus a magician?

[Tumah]

That would be very kind of you.

The Talmud is stating that one should always push away [those deserving] with the left (weaker) hand and bring closer with the right. The first example is given of Elisha and Gehazi, the second of Jesus and his Rabbi.

ולא כרבי יהושע בן פרחיה שדחפו לישו הנוצרי בשתי ידים: ר' יהושע בן פרחיה מאי היא כדקטלינהו ינאי מלכא לרבנן אזל רבי יהושע בן פרחיה לאלכסנדריא של מצרים ושמעון בן שטח אטמרתיה אחתיה כי הוה שלמא שלח ליה שמעון בן שטח מיני ירושלים עיר הקודש ליכי אלכסנדריא של מצרים אחותי בעלי שרוי בתוכך ואנכי יושבת שוממה אמר שמא מינא איכא שלמא בעלמא קם אתא ואתרמי ליה ההוא אושפיזא עבדו ליה יקרא טובא אמר כמה יפה אכסניא זו אמר ליה רבי עיניה טרוטות אמר ליה רשע בכך אתה עוסק אפיק ארבע מאה שיפורי ושמתיה אתא לקמיה כמה זמנין אמר ליה קבלן לא הוי קא משגח ביה יומא חד הוה קא קרי קריאת שמע אתא לקמיה סבר לקבולי אחוי ליה בידיה הוא סבר מידחא דחי ליה אזל זקף לבינתא והשתחוה לה אמר ליה הדר בך אמר ליה כך מקובלני ממך כל החוטא ומחטיא את הרבים אין מספיקין בידו לעשות תשובה ואמר מר ישו כישף והסית והדיח את ישראל​

And not like Rabbi Joshua ben Perachiah who pushed away Jesus the Nazarene with two hands. Rabbi Joshua ben Perachiah, what is it [that happened]? When King Jannaeus killed the Rabbis, Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia went to Alexandria of Egypt and Simon ben Shetach was hid by his sister. When there was peace, Simon ben Shetach sent to him, "From me, Jerusalem the holy city, to you Alexandria of Egypt, my sister. My husband is settled within you and I sit desolate." [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] said, " hear from this, there is peace in the world." He got up and went to a certain inn. They showed him much honor. He said, "what a nice innkeeper this is (how she is giving him honor)". [Jesus] said to him, "My rabbi, her eyes are rounded (thinking the Rabbi meant nice as in beautiful)." [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] said to him, "Wicked one, this is what you are toiling in?" He took out four hundred horns and excommunicated him. [Jesus] came before him many times [and] said to him, "Accept [me back]." And [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] wouldn't pay attention to him. One day, [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] was reading Shema [when Jesus] came before him. [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] intended to accept him [but speaking during Shema is prohibited so] he signed with his hands. He (Jesus) thought he was [still] pushing him away. [Jesus] went, took a brick and bowed to it (ie. became an idol-worshiper). [Rabbi Joshua ben Perachia] said to him, "Return [in repentance]." [Jesus] said to him, "Thus I have received from you, 'Anyone who sins and entices others to sin, is not given opportunity to do repentance." And master said, "Jesus was a [performer of] black magic and deceived led astray Israel."

That's the whole thing. There's another version in another tractate with slightly different words but the meaning is basically the same.

 

[Pastek]

The Talmud is stating that one should always push away [those deserving] with the left (weaker) hand and bring closer with the right. The first example is given of Elisha and Gehazi, the second of Jesus and his Rabbi.

That's the whole thing. There's another version in another tractate with slightly different words but the meaning is basically the same.

Thank you very much for taking the time to translate it.

 

[Knight of Albion]

A very warm welcome to the forum!

 

[roger1440]

Sure. Sanhedrin 107b. You'll need to find one that has the edited-out parts as when the Talmud was printed, it generally had to go through a Christian censor before printing and they edited out anything they thought might be related to Christianity.

Jesus was a very common name at that time. It would be like the name John in the United States.

 

[Tumah]

Jesus was a very common name at that time. It would be like the name John in the United States.

1. Is that a fact, or what you would like to believe factual?
2. So you think there were multiple Jesus' running around trying to start a new religion?

 

[RedDragon94]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.
In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

Jesus actually addressed this issue. He said, "And he called them to him and said to them in parables, 'How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand... And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.'" (Mark 3:23-24, 26)

 

[Tumah]

Jesus actually addressed this issue. He said, "And he called them to him and said to them in parables, 'How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand... And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.'" (Mark 3:23-24, 26)

That's like saying: because he said so.

 

[RedDragon94]

That's like saying: because he said so.

He's also alluding to the fact that he cannot use the powers of darkness, because that would put Satan on his side, which doesn't make sense because Satan is his enemy. He actually gives a practical and spiritual principle to back up his argument. He's not just saying, "No, you're wrong." to the teachers of the law, he explains the reality behind why he is not a sorcerer. What other source is there besides his words that could clear up such a misconception?

 

[Tumah]

He's also alluding to the fact that he cannot use the powers of darkness, because that would put Satan on his side, which doesn't make sense because Satan is his enemy. He actually gives a practical and spiritual principle to back up his argument. He's not just saying, "No, you're wrong." to the teachers of the law, he explains the reality behind why he is not a sorcerer. What other source is there besides his words that could clear up such a misconception?

Yes, but he is also the inventor of the principle. Here's another principle: Satan can make others seem to be going against him, when in reality they are on his side.
Here is an example of that principle in action: A man claims to be going against Satan and even does nice things, but his ultimate intention is to lead people away from G-d and to him.

 

[RedDragon94]

Yes, but he is also the inventor of the principle.

Actually when you think about it, can a divided kingdom stand? No, that's common sense. So did Jesus teach truth?

 

[Tumah]

Actually when you think about it, can a divided kingdom stand? No, that's common sense. So did Jesus teach truth?

Well the divided kingdom of Israel stood for about 200-300 years. So, as that's a fairly significant amount of time, I would say, 'yes it can.'

However, even if by stand you mean perpetuate eternally, I would still say all Jesus did was throw in some common knowledge in order to lend validity to the non-truthful things he was saying.

 

[RedDragon94]

Well the divided kingdom of Israel stood for about 200-300 years.

Only to be taken over by the Persians at the end of it all.

 

[Tumah]

Only to be taken over by the Persians at the end of it all.

That response can equally be applied to many undivided kingdoms as well. In fact it can be applied to almost every kingdom that has ever existed. So clearly, being divided was not the cause of the fall of the kingdom in Israel.

 

[RedDragon94]

That response can equally be applied to many undivided kingdoms as well. In fact it can be applied to almost every kingdom that has ever existed. So clearly, being divided was not the cause of the fall of the kingdom in Israel.

No it was their divided allegiance to God and to idols.

 

[Tumah]

No it was their divided allegiance to God and to idols.

Says you. Historically though, virtually all kingdoms have fallen. Even the ones who were undivided. So your case is invalid.

 

[roger1440]

1. Is that a fact, or what you would like to believe factual?
2. So you think there were multiple Jesus' running around trying to start a new religion?

Josephus does mention at least 20 people by the name Jesus.
Maybe 1st century Jews had way to much free time on there hands and starting a new religion kept them busy. I don't know.

 

[serp777]

actually jesus is portrayed as a sorcerer by the bible when he condemns demons or whatever to inhabit a flock of pigs, which then commit suicide by jumping off a cliff. It shows jesus as someone who has to convince people with parlor tricks and cheap magic while 21st century scientists have to take the writings of bronze age scribes in palestine on faith. Its absurd and its amazing how anyone can believe it. Well i guess people will believe anything.

 

[Tumah]

Josephus does mention at least 20 people by the name Jesus.
Maybe 1st century Jews had way to much free time on there hands and starting a new religion kept them busy. I don't know.

Well, the Talmud does seem to mention at least two Jesus' that I've seen. But I don't know. Seems a bit weird that the Talmud should mention all the other Jesus' that tried to hijack the religion and not the one that was actually successful.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Lots of figures like Jesus have miracles attributed to them several decades after their deaths, as the stories about them grow. The Gospels are pretty typical in this regard. The question isn't how Jesus performed the miracles, but what his performing miracles means in the context of the narrative.

In other words, people need to replace their Watsonian perspective with a Doylist one.

 

[George-ananda]

Even if Jesus Christ existed and actually performed extraordinary "miracles", how do we know he didn't use magic to perform what he did.
In the bible, in the book of exodus, chapter 23 it says that "a sorcerer shall be put to death". The bible would not say to put a sorcerer to death if sorcery did not exist. Once we know it exists, please explain how can we trust Jesus and his miracles?

By His fruit you will know Him!