Jesus and Caesar both ascended into Heaven. (Poll)

[Desert Snake]

You said that some Christains believed that Jesus was an angel? I believe i havent heard this before, who were these Christian and from which part of the world are they?

The JW's (Jehovah's Witnesses), and perhaps some other churches/?/. I don't believe that this is common, but it makes for a good comparison as to what is logically inferred from the text, etc. /Aside from prophet or Rabbi

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree with you. I myself dont think the modern scholars on Jesus are entirely correct. Infact in my Book i prove to everyone: Jesus not only claimed to be God (YHWH in the jewish context) but that this claim was an imitation of the Roman Emperor Augustus, who claimed to be the most high God(Jupiter) on earth too! And since Augustus lived earlier than Jesus, it can only be brought in order by saying that Jesus copyed the Roman Emperor. There are many pictures in my book and actual historical reference to Augustus claiming to be Jupiter and the pictures of the ancient idols depict Augustus taking the place(throne) of Jupiter among the gods.

Yes, very interesting.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

The JW's (Jehovah's Witnesses), and perhaps some other churches/?/. I don't believe that this is common, but it makes for a good comparison as to what is logically inferred from the text, etc. /Aside from prophet or Rabbi

They actually believe Jesus was an angel? Wow, i dont believe they have different scriptures than the rest of christendom. What are their methods of interpreting the sayings of Jesus to mean hes an angel?

 

[Desert Snake]

They actually believe Jesus was an angel? Wow, i dont believe they have different scriptures than the rest of christendom. What are their methods of interpreting the sayings of Jesus to mean hes an angel?

I haven't studied it enough to give any sort of accurate assessment. I would just suggest reading their explanations.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I haven't studied it enough to give any sort of accurate assessment. I would just suggest reading their explanations.

Ah okay, its fine. i myself am basically totally ignorant on Jehovas Witnesses apart from that they dont believe Jesus was God. You know alot more than me.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Infact in my Book i prove to everyone: Jesus not only claimed to be God (YHWH in the jewish context) but that this claim was an imitation of the Roman Emperor Augustus, who claimed to be the most high God(Jupiter) on earth too! And since Augustus lived earlier than Jesus, it can only be brought in order by saying that Jesus copyed the Roman Emperor. There are many pictures in my book and actual historical reference to Augustus claiming to be Jupiter and the pictures of the ancient idols depict Augustus taking the place(throne) of Jupiter among the gods.

Sounds like you're approaching an ancient culture through a Christianizing lens. While it's true there's plenty of iconography and so forth identifying Augustus with Jupiter, to an ancient Roman that communicates something about him that everyone in that cultural milieu can understand. It's not the same as asserting a one-to-one equivalency between Augustus and Jupiter, as it might appear to someone who's grown up in a predominantly monotheistic culture.

In fact the identification of living people with shared cultural deities, in the sense of adopting their iconography and attributes, was a very common thing in antiquity, which is why nobody in Augustus's day seems to have thought it worthy of comment. Not so much in Judaic culture (though probably more than people might think), but more importantly I'm not sold on the claim that Jesus asserted his equivalency to Yahweh in the first place. That's one possible reading of the Greek in one or two places and seems to contradict pretty much everything else in all the other places (not that that has ever stopped people from believing stuff).

As for folks being taken up into heaven (i.e. the divine realms), that's just standard. There are even earlier accounts of it, in both the Greco-Roman and the Judaic traditions. It's so common that there's not even an point trying to tie one of these instances to the other, as they both have plenty of antecedents to draw upon.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Sounds like you're approaching an ancient culture through a Christianizing lens. While it's true there's plenty of iconography and so forth identifying Augustus with Jupiter, to an ancient Roman that communicates something about him that everyone in that cultural milieu can understand. It's not the same as asserting a one-to-one equivalency between Augustus and Jupiter, as it might appear to someone who's grown up in a predominantly monotheistic culture.

What grounds are there to belive the historical Jesus to have been claiming a "one-to-one equivalency between Jesus and YHWH"? Perhaps, as i said, he claimed to be YHWH similar as Augustus, since he lived in the Roman Empire and was pulically active roughly 30 years after the Emperor, its not that hard to imagine him having heard of these rumors or perhaps having seen a temple/statue/idol to the emperor. so he couldve imitated that. Also i have actual evidence that there were times where all of the Caesars were regarded as the incarnation of Jupiter for a couple of days during a special event. perhaps its like the event where Jesus entered Jerusalem?

In fact the identification of living people with shared cultural deities, in the sense of adopting their iconography and attributes, was a very common thing in antiquity, which is why nobody in Augustus's day seems to have thought it worthy of comment. Not so much in Judaic culture (though probably more than people might think), but more importantly I'm not sold on the claim that Jesus asserted his equivalency to Yahweh in the first place. That's one possible reading of the Greek in one or two places and seems to contradict pretty much everything else in all the other places (not that that has ever stopped people from believing stuff).

Read Collosians 2:9, John 10:30

As for folks being taken up into heaven (i.e. the divine realms), that's just standard. There are even earlier accounts of it, in both the Greco-Roman and the Judaic traditions. It's so common that there's not even an point trying to tie one of these instances to the other, as they both have plenty of antecedents to draw upon.

Not as a historical event such as the ascension of Caesar, which was a visible Comet in the sky. Christians belive Jesus also ascended historically so my point is on historical grounds.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I have to mention that this chapter is one of the last chapters in my book. There are plenty of vital points discussed before this. For example i give evidence that Caesar's followers declared him to be God before Jesus did, that Jesus imitated the gentiles and encouraged his followers to look at the gentiles and to do better than them, also that Galilee, the area of Jesus's ministry, was heavely influenced by pagan ideas.


To all those who arent persuaded by the evidence: What are your reasons for voting no? Your faith tells otherwise and it has to be true because your faith tells its true?

 

[psychoslice]

For me personally I cannot understand that anyone would believe that Jesus or anyone could ascend to heaven, after all we are already there, heaven is within each one of us, its not out there somewhere, that to me is ridiculers.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

For me personally I cannot understand that anyone would believe that Jesus or anyone could ascend to heaven, after all we are already there, heaven is within each one of us, its not out there somewhere, that to me is ridiculers.

Are you familiar with Platos allegory of the cave? It should give you a very good understanding of what heaven has been for most of the history to western pagans, jews, christians and even muslims.

 

[psychoslice]

Are you familiar with Platos allegory of the cave? It should give you a very good understanding of what heaven has been for most of the history to western pagans, jews, christians and even muslims.

Yes I am very familiar with Plato's allegory of the cave, and yes we all see the shadows of the outside and through ignorance believe that these shadows are real. and hence all the belief systems we have today, nothing more than a shadow.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Yes I am very familiar with Plato's allegory of the cave, and yes we all see the shadows of the outside and through ignorance believe that these shadows are real. and hence all the belief systems we have today, nothing more than a shadow.

I believe he meant by the shadow irrational beliefs in something, since rationality for plato was a great good. so if you have rational grounds for believing in your deities i dont see how he could see that as a wrong. for plato rationality, aesthetics and morals were all the 'heavenly' parts of our human existence. i have read plato but it was a long long time ago and i can remember getting this sense out of him.


The point was though that heaven is something pure and outside of our world where you can learn to appreciate the true forms of the good, aesthetics and wisdom.

 

[psychoslice]

I believe he meant by the shadow irrational beliefs in something, since rationality for plato was a great good. so if you have rational grounds for believing in your deities i dont see how he could see that as a wrong. for plato rationality, aesthetics and morals were all the 'heavenly' parts of our human existence. i have read plato but it was a long long time ago and i can remember getting this sense out of him.

And don't forget, just because he said what he said doesn't make it so, we have to stop putting people from the past that we see as being, well as if they know what they are saying to be true, when infect their completely wrong.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

And don't forget, just because he said what he said doesn't make it so, we have to stop putting people from the past that we see as being, well as if they know what they are saying to be true, when infect their completely wrong.

So you dont believe in an existence after death? I know this is pretty much faith and all, but there is something to it. why not experience the good happy thoughts and amazement in a life after death?

 

[psychoslice]

So you dont believe in an existence after death? I know this is pretty much faith and all, but there is something to it. why not experience the good happy thoughts and amazement in a life after death?

Because that's all it is, a dream, something to make you feel good, but that doesn't make it so.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Because that's all it is, a dream, something to make you feel good, but that doesn't make it so.

There are grounds to believe that this life was basically given to you that another existence can also be given to you. to believe that it will be wholly good and perfect is a faith statement though. it could just as well be much less perfect than even this life(hard to believe for me) and some sort of hell of torture. but one can see in this life that the good is always dominant over the bad and that bad things later turn out to be good so perhaps this life (imperfect) will lead to a next life(perfect).

 

[psychoslice]

There are grounds to believe that this life was basically given to you that another existence can also be given to you. to believe that it will be wholly good and perfect is a faith statement though. it could just as well be much less perfect than even this life(hard to believe for me) and some sort of hell of torture. but one can see in this life that the good is always dominant over the bad and that bad things later turn out to be good so perhaps this life (imperfect) will lead to a next life(perfect).

I myself don't see such a thing as good or bad, everything is just how it should be, and for me its simple as that.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

I myself don't see such a thing as good or bad, everything is just how it should be, and for me its simple as that.

You dont see pain and illness as a bad thing? So if i slept with your wife you wouldnt see it as bad? If i gave you a million dollars you wouldnt see it as good?

 

[psychoslice]

You dont see pain and illness as a bad thing? So if i slept with your wife you wouldnt see it as bad? If i gave you a million dollars you wouldnt see it as good?

No I don't see what you see, what you see is from your ego, if my wife played up with someone else, then so what ?, should I get all jealous ?, and if I did what on earth would that achieve ?.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

No I don't see what you see, what you see is from your ego, if my wife played up with someone else, then so what ?, should I get all jealous ?, and if I did what on earth would that achieve ?.

I think its in our rational nature to advance the ego. Especially if youre male, its a justified impulse you get and there is nothing bad about it(for you too, since you dont see things as bad or good). If your wife played up with someone else you could see it as a wrong(bad) deed and initiate atleast a divorce(balancing out the bad by justice) this is how a society works if everybody didnt care then there would be no justice and peoples hurts would receive no compensation.