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Jesus And The Law

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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Moving posts again.

I'm sure you'll leap-frog over this post as well, but consider this: can you think of a time in the NT where God spoke to the disciples but did not appear face-to-face like God did with Moses?
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God did not appear to Moses face-to-face because God is not like a man to speak to another face-to-face. Besides, God is Incorporeal, and there is no face in incorporeality. When the text in Numbers 12:6,7 mentions that, to other prophets God would reveal Himself by way of a dream or vision, and to Moses mouth-to-mouth or face-to-face, was only in the metaphorical terms to mean that Moses was a special prophet, as he was considered the greatest of the prophets.
 
H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
smokydot said:
That's not quite what Paul said.

The NT reveals that the Law (ceremonial, not moral) is no longer in place because its basis, the Levitical priesthood, has been set aside. (Heb 7:11-12)
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I guess you are with a common misconception.

Hebrews 8
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.

So yes, paul pointed out here what the Lord's the comment about the New Covenant. I high-lighted the part for you.

Moreover, Law will not change as Law will finally be used in the final judgment. If Law is removed or changed, the final judgment will lose it basis. Law however has a scope to apply, say, Mosaic Law is applied to the Jews instead of the Gentiles, and the Jews' corresponding accuser is Moses (instead of Satan).

Covenent however can be updated. In the old covenant, the Jews need to obey Mosaic Law. In the New Covenant, everyone needs to believe in Jesus Christ. The Law will never change simply because there's no such a need.

Just like Jesus Christ said,

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
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S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Hawkins said:
I guess you are with a common misconception.

Hebrews 8
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.

So yes, paul pointed out here what the Lord's the comment about the New Covenant. I high-lighted the part for you.

Moreover, Law will not change as Law will finally be used in the final judgment. If Law is removed or changed, the final judgment will lose it basis. Law however has a scope to apply, say, Mosaic Law is applied to the Jews instead of the Gentiles, and the Jews' corresponding accuser is Moses (instead of Satan).

Covenent however can be updated. In the old covenant, the Jews need to obey Mosaic Law. In the New Covenant, everyone needs to believe in Jesus Christ. The Law will never change simply because there's no such a need.

Just like Jesus Christ said,

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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And the NT reveals that it has been accomplished. This is the NT revelation that is to be believed by Christians, and is orthodox Christianity.

I think you failed to note the distinction in my post between the moral law and the ceremonial law of sacrifices, cleansings, purifications, foods, etc.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the ceremonial law has been set aside, because its basis, the Levitical priesthood, has been set aside (Heb 7:-11-12).

This is the NT revelation that is to be believed by Christians, and is orthodox Christianity.
 
H

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
smokydot said:
And the NT reveals that it has been accomplished. This is the NT revelation that is to be believed by Christians, and is orthodox Christianity.

I think you failed to note the distinction in my post between the moral law and the ceremonial law of sacrifices, cleansings, purifications, foods, etc.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals that the ceremonial law has been set aside, because its basis, the Levitical priesthood, has been set aside (Heb 7:-11-12).

This is the NT revelation that is to be believed by Christians, and is orthodox Christianity.
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No, I think that you are confused about what God's Law, Mosaic Law and covenants are.
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
Ben Masada said:
Do you remember why Paul was arrested in the Temple? Because he was teaching against our people and the Law. True or not, that was the reason. (Acts 21:28) When he was taken to Court, he said that it was because of his hope in the resurrection. As you know, that was not the reason. So, he was a liar.
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No, that was the reason (Ac 24:15). The charges were false (Ac 24:13), and they were trying to frame him because he preached the Way (Ac 24:14), which was based on the resurrection of Jesus (1Co 15:14-15, 17).

Jesus died against his will. He prayed three times not to die on the cross. When he realized he was wasting his time, he said, "Be thy will done and not mine." Wow! what was his will then? Not too hard to figure. He didn't want to diie for nobody.
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That is one lousy Jewish gloss!
The poor fella was forced to take the cross on political charges of being proclaimed king of the Jews by some jerks who were following him. That's what Pilate wrote on that plate and nailed on the top of his cross.
Another lie of Paul's. The Pharisees were too intelligent to believe in bodily resurrection. We believe in a metaphorical resurrection accoding to Ezekiel 37:12. Resurrection from the graves of exile and return to the Land of Israel. That's the Jewish resurrection we believe in, and that does not go against the Scriptures nor against natural laws.
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Uh huh. . .lousy try. . .that's the Jewish resurrection the Sadducees believe in.
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Postulate this: did the events of Exodus 34 occur before or after Lev 1.1?
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Moses did not see God's face (Ex 33:20-23).

(he was already wearing the veil!)
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Because he had spoken with God, not because he had seen him (Ex 34:29)
Before you assume I didn't read something, do some reading yourself. I realize that thinking is a challenge, I believe that you can do something as basic as this.
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Right, that's why I said Moses did not speak with God face-to-face; meaning, Moses did not see his face (Ex 34:29; Lev 1:1) and, therefore, since Paul received his revelation the same way Moses did, Paul likewise did not see Jesus' face.
It didn't diminish Moses' authority, just as it didn't diminish Paul's authority.

You still need to check the Scriptures before your postulations.
 
G

gregiam

Marriage Advice
Very good article and this is a profond statement : "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither they will be persuaded even if one rose from the dead."
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
smokydot said:
No, that was the reason (Ac 24:15). The charges were false (Ac 24:13), and they were trying to frame him because he preached the Way (Ac 24:14), which was based on the resurrection of Jesus (1Co 15:14-15, 17).

That is one lousy Jewish gloss!
Uh huh. . .lousy try. . .that's the Jewish resurrection the Sadducees believe in.
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Sorry smokey, your information is incorrect.
The Sadducees: Priestly group with support from nobility and aristocracy of Judea. Believed that the only way to worship God was sacrifice in the Temple. Denied existence of angles and immortality of the soul. No oral law nor freewill

Pharisees: Study of Torah is sacred act equal to worship of God. Believed in angles and immortality of the soul. Concept of Oral Law; believed in fate and freewill.
 
S

smokydot

Well-Known Member
esmith said:
Sorry smokey, your information is incorrect.
The Sadducees: Priestly group with support from nobility and aristocracy of Judea. Believed that the only way to worship God was sacrifice in the Temple. Denied existence of angles and immortality of the soul. No oral law nor freewill

Pharisees: Study of Torah is sacred act equal to worship of God. Believed in angles and immortality of the soul. Concept of Oral Law; believed in fate and freewill.
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And your authoritative source is?

No immortality. . .means no resurrection. . .

So it's as I said. . .the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection.
 
esmith

esmith

Veteran Member
smokydot said:
And your authoritative source is?

No immortality. . .means no resurrection. . .

So it's as I said. . .the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection.
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If you did imply that the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection I :sorry1: Your writing is so convoluted, at times, that I didn't understand it.
 
F

free spirit

Well-Known Member
gregiam said:
Very good article and this is a profond statement : "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither they will be persuaded even if one rose from the dead."
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Am I correct in saying that the above statement means that you have to be a religious person, or believing in God and observe religious doctrines before you can believe in Jesus?
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Ben Masada said:
I can very well say the same as Jesus did, who was also speaking as a Jew. "Believe in God by believing what I am telling you." That's our role in this world, to speak for God to man. Isn't what Ezekiel says in 20:41? "By means of Israel God reveals His glory in the sight of the nations."
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You are not able to speak the word of God when it is so evident that you don't even understand it. Not only that but you changed the meaning of what Jesus said when supposedly you rephrased it.

This is the problem. You think to speak for God but end up speaking for yourself. I on the other hand allow God to speak through me and would never dain to speak for Him.

As usual you have totally botched up this verse. God's glory is revealed in Israel by what God has done with Israel. Those prophecies are past tense now. Israel has been regathered from the nations and God should receive the glory for doing it.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
esmith said:
The NT interprets Ro 11:26-27 as a reference to Jer 31:31-34 ( and is quoted in the NT fully) and says that this is Jeremiah prophesying the "new testament" through Jesus. Whereas it really refers to the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian exile and the reconstruction of the Temple. The "Deliverer" is an attempt to reference Isaiah 59:20. But it is the penitent Israelities, not the whole nation, who will enjoy the salvation of God long predicted and thus far delayed. The Babylonians have been defeated, as Deutero-Isiah and earlier prophets predicted, but the new age has failed to materialize: The exiles have not all returned to Zion, and the land remains mostly desolate. Consequently, some Judeans speculated that the Lord was not able to save them, or that God did not listen to their prayers. The prophet retorts that Israel's sins, not God's abilities, are the root of the problem.
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There is no evidence to support the concept that those returning from the captivity were a new covenant people. Also the Messiah is still prophesied as coming by Zechariah after the return. Neither was there any new way for anyone to be saved from thier sin.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
free spirit said:
Am I correct in saying that the above statement means that you have to be a religious person, or believing in God and observe religious doctrines before you can believe in Jesus?
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No. It is working in the negative. A person who resists listening to God through the prophets will also resist listening to God even if great miracles are taking place right before his eyes.

... or as Ebenezer Scrooge put it: It must have been that roast beef that I had for supper ...

My wife came to Jesus that way. She had an encounter with a demon and found that she could no longer deny the supernatural.
 
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