Jesus And The Law

[smokydot]

No. It is working in the negative. A person who resists listening to God through the prophets will also resist listening to God even if great miracles are taking place right before his eyes.

... or as Ebenezer Scrooge put it: It must have been that roast beef that I had for supper ...

My wife came to Jesus that way. She had an encounter with a demon and found that she could no longer deny the supernatural.

YIKES!. .that had to be terrifying!

 

[Ben Masada]

You are not able to speak the word of God when it is so evident that you don't even understand it. Not only that but you changed the meaning of what Jesus said when supposedly you rephrased it.

This is the problem. You think to speak for God but end up speaking for yourself. I on the other hand allow God to speak through me and would never dain to speak for Him.

As usual you have totally botched up this verse. God's glory is revealed in Israel by what God has done with Israel. Those prophecies are past tense now. Israel has been regathered from the nations and God should receive the glory for doing it.

We have more Jews throughout the world than in the Land of Israel. The Lord has gathered us back to the Land of Israel and organized us again as a nation so that He may reveal Himself in the official level of a nation to another, in addition to in the individual level. There is nothing you can say to take that away from us. On the contrary, you will be unwanted for the Divine blessings that come to those who bless Israel instead of standing against her.(Ezek. 20:41)

 

[Ben Masada]

No, that was the reason (Ac 24:15). The charges were false (Ac 24:13), and they were trying to frame him because he preached the Way (Ac 24:14), which was based on the resurrection of Jesus (1Co 15:14-15, 17).

That is one lousy Jewish gloss!
Uh huh. . .lousy try. . .that's the Jewish resurrection the Sadducees believe in.

If the charges were false, Luke would be lying too. "The Way" was the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose converts would become Jewish staunch defenders of the Law, according to Acts 21:20. And they gathered in synagogues; not in churches. Read Acts 9:1,2. And they did not preach about bodily resurrection because this was fabricated by Paul about 30 yeas after Jesus had been gone. He himself revealed his secret to Timothy, one of his disciples, when he told him that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel. Read II Timothy 2:8. It means that there was another gospel being preached whose agenda did not contain the resurrection. That was the gospel of the Nazarenes. Jewish gloss! No, my friend, that's the pain the truth causes when it is brought to the surfice, and one doesn't like it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*4th shot*

 

[smokydot]

*4th shot*

:cigar:

 

[smokydot]

If the charges were false, Luke would be lying too. "The Way" was the Sect of the Nazarenes, whose converts would become Jewish staunch defenders of the Law, according to Acts 21:20.

Well, then you've got a problem, because the NT does not agree with you.

The NT reports that Paul was a follower of the Way (Ac 24:14), and the NT reports that Paul taught:

"Christ is the end of the law so that there might be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Ro 10:4)

"the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ (until Christ came) that we might be justified by faith.
Now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervison of the law." (Gal 3:24-25)

"you died to the law through the body of Christ" (Ro 7:4)

..all the Jews living among the Gentiles that the Levitical law had been set aside, And they gathered in synagogues; not in churches. Read Acts 9:1,2. And they did not preach about bodily resurrection because this was fabricated by Paul about 30 yeas after Jesus had been gone.

Jesu's resurrection is found in all the gospels. . .it is the basis of Christianity.

He himself revealed his secret to Timothy, one of his disciples, when he told him that Jesus resurrected according to his gospel. Read II Timothy 2:8. It means that there was another gospel being preached whose agenda did not contain the resurrection. That was the gospel of the Nazarenes. Jewish gloss! No, my friend, that's the pain the truth causes when it is brought to the surfice, and one doesn't like it.

Not only is this a Jewish gloss, it is based in complete ignorance of the NT reports.

 

[Ben Masada]

Well, then you've got a problem, because the NT does not agree with you.

Of course not! I am Jewish, and the NT was written by Hellenist Gentiles with almost zero knowledge of Jewish culture and customs.

The NT reports that Paul was a follower of the Way (Ac 24:14), and the NT reports that Paul taught:

That's one of Paul's classic lies. And a lie under oath of confession. How did he believe all things in the Law and in the Prophets if he used to preach against circumcision of the flesh and against the Law itself? (Acts 21:21) The circumcision was an "everlasting" token of the Abrahamic Covenant. (Gen. 17:13) By teacing the Jews to stop circumcising their children, Paul had broken the everlasting Word of God.(Acts 21:21)

"Christ is the end of the law so that there might be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Ro 10:4)

This inplies Replacement Theology, the worst insult to the Jewish People.

"the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ (until Christ came) that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervison of the law." (Gal 3:24-25)

Now, what are you, an outlaw? Because above the Law, only God is. Under the law are all law abide citizens. Only the criminals are outlaws. Sorry, but that's the Logic you have forced me into.

"you died to the law through the body of Christ" (Ro 7:4)
Jesu's resurrection is found in all the gospels. . .it is the basis of Christianity.
Not only is this a Jewish gloss, it is based in complete ignorance of the NT reports.

And the ignorance of your own NT is so enormous that I am sure you don't even know what kind of Law is Paul talking about in Romans 7:4 that Christians have died to. Read verse 7. Where is it written, "You shall not covet?" In the Decalog. So, Paul was preaching against the heart of the Law. That Christians are dead to the Ten Commandments. That's catastrophic! According to Matthew 5:19, Paul will never partake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Words of Jesus', not mine.

 

[free spirit]

Smokydot, I have given up arguing with the descendents of ESAU; they like ESAU before them, believe in God but do not appreciete the blessing due to them. verses 9-10 and 11 should be a comfort to you.
TITUS 3:5-11
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds, which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our saviour,
7 that being justified by his grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
9 But shun foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[Muffled]

YIKES!. .that had to be terrifying!

It was but she revertred back to what she knew as a child and sang "Jesus Loves Me." The demon couldn't stand it and fled and never returned.

 

[Muffled]

We have more Jews throughout the world than in the Land of Israel. The Lord has gathered us back to the Land of Israel and organized us again as a nation so that He may reveal Himself in the official level of a nation to another, in addition to in the individual level. There is nothing you can say to take that away from us. On the contrary, you will be unwanted for the Divine blessings that come to those who bless Israel instead of standing against her.(Ezek. 20:41)

I don't stand against Isreal but I don't have much use for religious folderal (foolishness).

The only proscription that Jesus gave me about Jews was not to be too hard on you.

 

[free spirit]

I don't stand against Isreal but I don't have much use for religious folderal (foolishness).

Do not be deceived by the earthly Israel for She is a counterfeit Israel. The Israel of God is in Heaven and in the heart of spirit filled Christians.

The only proscription that Jesus gave me about Jews was not to be too hard on you.

Again do not be deceived by the counterfeit Israel, God shows no partiality; Jesus commanded us to be kind to all people.

 

[tripleog2010]

Jesus and the Law

This is one of Jesus' secret teachings, not because Jesus meant it to be a secret, but because Christians find it so hard to understand that it is taken as a secret. It is in the parable of the Richman and Lazarus.

Since you can read the whole parable in Luke 16:19-31, I am cutting short this thread by going straighht to the bottom line: Verses 29-31. Somehow, the Richman must not have been a good man, because his afterlife was to be spent in Hell. Lazarus, who was a beggar, and a good man in his ways, also happened to die and spend his afterlife in Heaven. As the text say, in the bosom of Abraham.

It happens that the Richman in Hell lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said: "Oh father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to my father's house, because I have five brethrens and Lazarus could testify to them, so that they would not fall in this place of torment."

The answer to the Richman in Hell put in the mouth of Abraham by Jesus was: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." And the Richman insisted, "Ney, father Abraham, but if one went to them from the dead, they wouldl repent." And Abraham (Jesus) said to him: "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither they will be persuaded even if one rose from the dead."

IMHO, that was a prophecy of Jesus' in the form of a parable which has been fulfilled by Christians in general. They do believe that Jesus rose from the dead; nevertheless, they just can't be persuaded to listen to Moses and the Prophets, which means the Law, in order to prevent themselves from falling in Hell. They prefer the Pauline policy of salvation by faith only.
Ben

I believe you are correct. Paul was either a heretic or his writings were distorted; either way, the writings are not usable. These epistles are used in the corrupted church as a way to "cheap grace." That somehow a man is saved by faith and that works has nothing to do with salvation. However, abiding in the commandments is essential to be saved.

All of the power of Judeo/Christian values lies in the keeping of the Commandments. Without that, nothing works right.

Getting back to Paul, if you remember Christ taught never to swear any oaths
(Romans 1:9; II Cor. 1:2,3,; Phil 1:8; 1 Thess. 2:5,10 and Galatians 1:20.)
So the question is this: If Paul was taught directly by Christ (who taught not to swear oaths), then how is it that Paul swears at least five times in his letters? Bear in mind that a hypocrite is a liar. Oh, and in at least one spot he says: "I lie not.." or something to that effect. The problem is that when someone tells me that they are not lying; they probably are.

 

[esmith]

Is it possible that Paul figured out a way to enhance his own egomaniacal personality (which it appears he had after reading his writings). Prior to him running all over the Near East he was a very minor officiary. By promoting himself to a "higher office" he satisfied his need to "be someone".
Just a thought.

 

[Ben Masada]

Is it possible that Paul figured out a way to enhance his own egomaniacal personality (which it appears he had after reading his writings). Prior to him running all over the Near East he was a very minor officiary. By promoting himself to a "higher office" he satisfied his need to "be someone".
Just a thought.

A thought that I can't agree with you more.

 

[Ben Masada]

I believe you are correct. Paul was either a heretic or his writings were distorted; either way, the writings are not usable. These epistles are used in the corrupted church as a way to "cheap grace." That somehow a man is saved by faith and that works has nothing to do with salvation. However, abiding in the commandments is essential to be saved.

All of the power of Judeo/Christian values lies in the keeping of the Commandments. Without that, nothing works right.

Getting back to Paul, if you remember Christ taught never to swear any oaths
(Romans 1:9; II Cor. 1:2,3,; Phil 1:8; 1 Thess. 2:5,10 and Galatians 1:20.)
So the question is this: If Paul was taught directly by Christ (who taught not to swear oaths), then how is it that Paul swears at least five times in his letters? Bear in mind that a hypocrite is a liar. Oh, and in at least one spot he says: "I lie not.." or something to that effect. The problem is that when someone tells me that they are not lying; they probably are.

I agree with you 101 percent.

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't stand against Isreal but I don't have much use for religious folderal (foolishness).

The only proscription that Jesus gave me about Jews was not to be too hard on you.

So, you don't have muh use for religious foolishness, isn't that right? In that case, what do you mean in post #149 above about "The demon couldn't stand it, and fled , and never returned?" Is there any religious foolishness more of a folish statement than that? Demons do not exist and nobody can prove it. They are only a concept to illustrate
the evil inclination in man.

Don't worry about the proscription Jesus gave you about us. I can take it, even with my hands tight behind by back. That's what Mark Twain told about us in the following assay, which I agree with:

The Essay of Mark Twain About the Jews.

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way.

Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.

The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain

 

[Caladan]

So it means that both Jesus and Paul are right about the Jews even 2000 years ago. Paul said that it is because the Jews can no longer keep the Law given to them that the New Covenant is in place.

No. it simply means that they (The Jews) tend to be more progressive than Christians, who evidently need to be spoon fed a dogma in order to function.
The Law. belongs to the Jews. and just like a constitution, a parliament system, or any system of law which escorts a nation through the decades. it is due to change to fit the current global, regional or domestic model.
Those who refuse to strengthen their laws and ways, will very quickly find themselves out of the game.
The Laws. have nothing to do with Christians, and gentiles in general.
they have been produced in the middle east, by middle eastern people, and for middle eastern people.
What gentiles have been left with is idolizing a single Jewish man. who like all Jewish men, had his own interpretation of the law.
which is not surprising then, as to why such a huge bulk of Christian bodies and societies around the world always openly admitted that the law is not part of their doctrines. and that their entire religion, and indeed their very life and those of their children depend on a dead Jewish man.
Gentile Christians gather the bread pieces which fall from the table of the Talmudic sages, and the Jewish sages of the first centuries, and would chew on them for centuries to come. and still they will remain with the belief that their salvation depends on one Jewish man. not unlike the Jewish men of the first centuries, who reshaped and debated the laws of Judaism with other Jewish men.

 

[free spirit]

No. it simply means that they (The Jews) tend to be more progressive than Christians, who evidently need to be spoon fed a dogma in order to function.
The Law. belongs to the Jews. and just like a constitution, a parliament system, or any system of law which escorts a nation through the decades. it is due to change to fit the current global, regional or domestic model.
Those who refuse to strengthen their laws and ways, will very quickly find themselves out of the game.
The Laws. have nothing to do with Christians, and gentiles in general.
they have been produced in the middle east, by middle eastern people, and for middle eastern people.
What gentiles have been left with is idolizing a single Jewish man. who like all Jewish men, had his own interpretation of the law.
which is not surprising then, as to why such a huge bulk of Christian bodies and societies around the world always openly admitted that the law is not part of their doctrines. and that their entire religion, and indeed their very life and those of their children depend on a dead Jewish man. If Christian salvation depend on a dead Jewish Man as you say; We are of all men most to be pitied. But I can assure you that Jesus is alive and working in the hearts of those who are to be saved, He confirmes that He is alive through the centuries to chosen faithfull people of which by His grace I am one of them.
Gentile Christians gather the bread pieces which fall from the table of the Talmudic sages, and the Jewish sages of the first centuries, and would chew on them for centuries to come. and still they will remain with the belief that their salvation depends on one Jewish man. not unlike the Jewish men of the first centuries, who reshaped and debated the laws of Judaism with other Jewish men.

By His Grace Jesus has given me understanding out of the ordinary of the New Testament, I have written and published a book about that, If you like I can send you one, so you can judge if I am lying. The title of the book is "THE WAY GOD TOLD IT"

 

[Caladan]

Well. that title sounds very narcissistic. I'll have to refuse that lovely cup of non kosher tea.

BTW. do you have the medical records of one Jesus of Nazareth? you know, just so we can break a long sigh of relief that he is still alive and out there wondering the streets of Israeli cities and preaching the good news to modern Jews and secular Israelis?

 

[free spirit]

Well. that title sounds very narcissistic. I'll have to refuse that lovely cup of non kosher tea.

Yes and I try to love my neighbour like I love myself.

BTW. do you have the medical records of one Jesus of Nazareth? you know, just so we can break a long sigh of relief that he is still alive and out there wondering the streets of Israeli cities and preaching the good news to modern Jews and secular Israelis?

You disappoint me for I made you to be more intelligent and open minded than that.
Some people hated Jesus enough to ask for his execution, and some people hated Paul enough to persecuted him from city to city, the same people hated the new Testament scripture enough to insert lies and alter its orderly sequence to make the Holy Scriptures hard to understand therefore umbiguous. As you can see even today some people never change. However I find the biger sin to be that of apathy in regard to true revelation.