Jesus And The Law

[Caladan]

Yes and I try to love my neighbour like I love myself.


You disappoint me for I made you to be more intelligent and open minded than that.
Some people hated Jesus enough to ask for his execution, and some people hated Paul enough to persecuted him from city to city, the same people hated the new Testament scripture enough to insert lies and alter its orderly sequence to make the Holy Scriptures hard to understand therefore umbiguous. As you can see even today some people never change. However I find the biger sin to be that of apathy in regard to true revelation.

Fascinating.
you are like a window to the European dark ages.
Only this time, I am Inquisitor.

 

[free spirit]

Fascinating.
you are like a window to the European dark ages.
Only this time, I am Inquisitor.

Look out again of that window inquisitor the sun is shining, I hope you are not in darkeness like those inquisitor of the dark ages.

(VII) Throughout the ages many pagan religions adopted various forms of sacrifice to appease God. Some even went to the extreme repugnance of offering human sacrifice, like virgins or infants whose bodies were unblemished.
The Jews however offered animal sacrifices, not to appease God as it were, but to make atonement for their sins; in other words, by their faith in a promise given to them by God, they covered their sins for a time with a substitute life “blood” of an unblemished animal, until those who believed in the promise of the coming Messiah would be redeemed by the unblemished sacrifice of the Christ.
Christianity therefore was born through the sacrifice of the unblemished life of the Messiah, His unblemished life and eventual sinless death were necessary, for in so doing He fulfilled the law of God, hence enabling Him to do three wonderful things for the world which are: First, reverse what Adam did and give justification of life to all of humanity; second, forgive the sins of past, present and future faithful generations, and third, give the gift of His Grace to those who would believe and receive the Holy Spirit.
Some of those who receive the gift of His Grace have been invited to grow and mature in that gift, for we read in Luke 9:23: “And He was saying to them all, ‘if anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.’” Somehow that invitation to deny oneself is tested by the strength of his or her personal faith, for we must keep present in mind that it is not compulsory to literally follow in His footsteps, for it is written: “If anyone wishes to come after Me” That statement is just because we are all individuals whose personalities and strength differ in many ways. It is compulsory though to “love your neighbour like yourself,” which is the basic requirement if we truly aspire to be Christians and then if anyone wishes there is the devotional sacrifice to go after him.
This devotional sacrifice of worship to God is an exceptional way of self-denial with which we get closer to our Lord, for we read in 1Corinthians 7:32-38: “But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
34 And the woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35 And this I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly, and to secure some believers for an undivided devotion to the Lord.
36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly towards his celibacy, if he should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let him marry.
37 But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own body, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own body chaste, he will do well.
38 So then both he who gives his own body in marriage does well, but he who does not give himself in marriage will do better.”
As you can see, the last three verses 36-38, with the inserted Italics are the obvious restorations needed, which enable us to understand the connection and the true intended meaning of the previous verses of 32-35. Thus if any person, male or female, is willingly prepared and able to freely undertake the sacrifice of celibacy as their sacrifice of worship, that sacrifice is acceptable to God, this is confirmed in Matthew 19:10-12: “The disciples said to Him, ‘If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.’ But He said to them, ‘Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this let him accept it.’”
Romans 12:1 also urges us to keep our body holy by saying: “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.”
We all should be able to accept the above open and straightforward restorations, but let us investigate the facts for ourselves and become fully convinced that today’s Bibles’ description of the above three verses were undeniably distorted. So let us read the three verses in question as they are written in the “New American Standard Bible” 1Corinthians 7:36-38: “But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry,
37 but he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
38 so then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.”
Other Bibles’ translations of the above three verses are a little different. In some Bibles even the inserted italics are different; but it is obvious to me that in them the ambiguities also still remain in place. Furthermore, any reasonable person is able to see that the English expressions of those three verses are confusing to say the least. These verses are openly in opposition to the women’s individual freedom, for we all know that fathers have control of their daughter’s lives only for a short time. It would be reasonable to think from reading the above scriptures that the father is offering the daughter’s celibacy as a sacrifice for his own perceived benefit.
Needless to say, for that obvious reason alone, the sacrifice is unacceptable to God.
What’s more, in my research I have found that the Pagan Roman religion did have virgin females (vestali), which were pledged to celibacy until thirty years of age, and were under penalty of death if they strayed. They were offered (maybe by their fathers) and dedicated for service to the state, for keeping burning the perennial fire of the temple and were entrusted to safeguard important government documents and records, like the last will and testament of the head of State, and to maintain and or assist him in the temple’s ceremonial function, for the head of the Roman State was also head of religion. (Pontifex Maximus)
It stands to reason that for these verses of 1Corinthians 7:36-38 to make any sense in the life of the faithful, they should be read in context with the preceding four verses as they are presented above. Only then the subject matter is exposed and becomes relevant to the lives of the believers, thus those faithful who are able can freely and confidently choose celibacy as a spiritual sacrifice of worship to our God.
Nevertheless, if any one, after committing to the “devotional sacrifice,” realise that the sacrifice of celibacy is too difficult for him to honestly fulfil, in such a case he can stop trying and get married with God’s blessing.

Well Caladan... with all probabilities the above went well over your head

 

[Caladan]

Not only did it went over my head.
I just scrolled all the way down without reading a word of it.
When you can produce a single original word, thought, or even an action. without using the words of Jewish men who have presaged you.
then come talk to me. man to man. no tricks. no quoting of the scriptures. skill against skill alone. as God intended.

 

[Hawkins]

Is it possible that Paul figured out a way to enhance his own egomaniacal personality (which it appears he had after reading his writings). Prior to him running all over the Near East he was a very minor officiary. By promoting himself to a "higher office" he satisfied his need to "be someone".
Just a thought.

Christianity is almost exclusively about Law. Paul is trying to make a compromise to express God's Law in a both a religious and legal point of view for both the Jews and Gentiles to understand.

Those questions are not actually questions, as they don't matter.

If you want to put God's Law into details, it could be a book of 5 meter thick. Even when such a book exists, it is not a necessity for mankind to read the details in order to obey.

Have you read the laws of your country/nation/state? You don't need to, yet as long as you have never been jailed, it says that you can obey. On the other hand, the criminals don't need to fully read the laws either. When they commit crimes, they'll be jailed.

Covenants are to emphasize certain parts of God's Law or to frame a scope of a reflection of God's Law. Mosaic Law is a reflection of God's Law called the "Law in mind", one of the covenants made by God and Israel is to demand that the Jews shall obey Mosaic Law. Alternatively speaking, the Jews were demanded to obey the Mosaic Law, which is a reflection of God's Law called the "Law in mind", by a covenant granted by God to Israel.

Hope that you can see the relationship between a covenant and God's Law, and the Mosaic Law.

Law is for the final judgment. So no change shall be made. Jesus' coming is thus not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. But how? By Law Jesus' self-sacrifice can save. That's how.

As a result, you might consider Jesus Christ's teaching is yet another reflection of God's Law. The New Covenant requires humans (both the Jews and Gentiles) to obey such a reflection of God's Law. Yet in a more legal/lawful point of view. this is a special reflection of God's Law as humans entitled to this covenant will no longer be subject to the judgment of Law. Humans who are entitled to this covenant are subject to the judgment of Jesus Christ Himself alone.

To put it another way, when humans are judged by Law they need Law to give them a pass in order to stay in Heaven. If they failed to obey the Law, that is, if they sin to their death as measured by Law, then they can't enter Heaven. However, when they are entitled to the New Covenant, Jesus Christ gives them a pass then they'll be in Heaven. If Jesus Christ say, "Depart from me, I don't know you", then they are done.

Thus the New Covenant requires us to believe in Jesus Christ, to follow His teaching till we are holy. Then we shall be saved. Holy is a term disregarding the Law, while sinless is a term requires the Law's judgment.

Moreover, there is yet another reflection of God's Law which is called the "Law in heart" which is buried in our hearts as a default. So before we receive a formal covenant, we need to obey and will be judged by this reflection of God's Law.

The Law is always in effect. Jews can always choose to obey Mosaic Law to pass the judgment. Similarly, gentiles can always choose to obey the Law in heart to pass the judgment.

The whole point is, it is estimated that they can't (CAN'T, CAN NO LONGER) keep the Law. As a result, Jesus Christ is needed.

The Jews (perhaps Gentiles also) can be beneficial to whatever best protect them in the final judgment. If the Mosaic Law can best protect a Jew, then he's under the Mosaic Law. If he chooses to give up Mosaic Law, he's under the Law in heart. In the end, if he chooses to believe in Jesus Christ, he will be protected by the New Covenant.

 

[Ben Masada]

Christianity is almost exclusively about Law. Paul is trying to make a compromise to express God's Law in a both a religious and legal point of view for both the Jews and Gentiles to understand.



The Law is always in effect. Jews can always choose to obey Mosaic Law to pass the judgment. Similarly, gentiles can always choose to obey the Law in heart to pass the judgment.

The whole point is, it is estimated that they can't (CAN'T, CAN NO LONGER) keep the Law. As a result, Jesus Christ is needed.

The Jews (perhaps Gentiles also) can be beneficial to whatever best protect them in the final judgment. If the Mosaic Law can best protect a Jew, then he's under the Mosaic Law. If he chooses to give up Mosaic Law, he's under the Law in heart. In the end, if he chooses to believe in Jesus Christ, he will be protected by the New Covenant.

Who decided that if one canno keep the Law, Jesus is needed, you or Paul? What would Jesus be needed for if, according to the Prophets, "Every one shall die for his own iniquity?" (Jer. 31:30) That's the payback to the New Covenant established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one People. Therefore, Jesus did not die for no one's iniquity, but on political charges. Because he had been proclaimed king of the Jews by some of the jerks among his followers. Had not been for this reason that Jesus was crucified, Pilate would not have written the reason on that plate and nailed it on the top of his cross. Therefore, it is about time to stop giving an ear to crooks who fabricate different reasons, why Jesus was crucified, with the intent to make a living out of the naives of this world.

 

[free spirit]

Not only did it went over my head.
I just scrolled all the way down without reading a word of it.
When you can produce a single original word, thought, or even an action. without using the words of Jewish men who have presaged you.
then come talk to me. man to man. no tricks. no quoting of the scriptures. skill against skill alone. as God intended.

Yes, you are correct is far more interesting to speak to a person that uses original words and thought.
If you read my previous post you will find that I did just that within the existing scriptures in question, because I believe that I have been given some new possible and interesting prospect on some of the scriptures, that is all, but I see that you are not interested in that.
I do not seek to put my skill against anyone skill, as far as I am concerned you have already won the contest.

 

[Caladan]

I do not seek to put my skill against anyone skill, as far as I am concerned you have already won the contest.

Not surprising there. not a new revelation either.
have fun mutilating the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[free spirit]

Not surprising there. not a new revelation either.
have fun mutilating the Hebrew scriptures.

On the contrary by the grace of God I am restoring them to the original. The evidence of its righteousness is in the clarity of the restorations.

 

[Caladan]

On the contrary by the grace of God I am restoring them to the original. The evidence of its righteousness is in the clarity of the restorations.

Do enlighten the rest of us poor and lowly Jews. where IS the original? Sydney Australia?

Go and worship your Rainbow serpent. as I am sure plenty of young and 'spiritual' Australians so enthusiastically take as their own from the traditions of the aborigines.

 

[free spirit]

Do enlighten the rest of us poor and lowly Jews. where IS the original? Sydney Australia?

I do not need the original scriptures , because I know the author of the scriptures and the author is God, therefore I do not even need to learn the old languages, because God my father can speak to me in my language.

Go and worship your Rainbow serpent. as I am sure plenty of young and 'spiritual' Australians so enthusiastically take as their own from the traditions of the aborigines.

I did not know that you were a Jew, but from what you mercilessly say above completes the picture for me.

 

[Caladan]

I do not need the original scriptures , because I know the author of the scriptures and the author is God, therefore I do not even need to learn the old languages, because God my father can speak to me in my language.

I should be flattered that you consider my men of renown as gods, the men who have laboured and produced the Hebrew scriptures for us.
however, at the academic world this means you have already lost the battle.
as can be seen on this very forum. which is divided by cheap pop and Sci Fi brands of Christianity, and by misguided Americans who take on them the antagonists of the Hebrew scriptures as their gods and the gods of the contemporary cultures to the Hebrews, in their own pop version in the O so fascinating cosmic battle of light and dark in North America.

I did not know that you were a Jew, but from what you mercilessly say above completes the picture for me.

Exactly.
You know the Spanish saying, he who has been stung by a scorpion is afraid of its shadow.
you are one of the few in the world who has yet to take this saying to heart.

 

[free spirit]

Exactly.
You know the Spanish saying, he who has been stung by a scorpion is afraid of its shadow.
you are one of the few in the world who has yet to take this saying to heart.

i do not fear the Jews I pity them because some Jews of old rejected the messiah their children have missed the blessing of God to this day.

 

[Caladan]

i do not fear the Jews I pity them because some Jews of old rejected the messiah their children have missed the blessing of God to this day.

I don't see any logical reason for a gentile to pity what many of you seem to consider to be some of the most successful men and women in today's world.
On the other hand. the Jews have all the reason to pity men like you, who idolize a single man of Jewish heritage and treat him as god himself.
Your blessings of your deceased man-god. are an abomination by the law of the Hebrew prophets and the scriptures.
You and the rest of the remaining Christians in the world have refused to confront one of the most startling historical spins. the main body of Jews, the scribes, the high priests, the common priests, the Jewish sages, the everyday hardworking Jews, the members of the Jewish resistance, the Jews who administrated the province. and of course the high officials of the Roman authorities in the land of Israel.
have stuck to the teachings of the Hebrew prophets, and to the teachings of the Hebrew scriptures, the Jewish law.
The rest of you, have received a copy of a copy of a mutation with scarce resemblance to authentic Jewish law or to authentic Judaism, or to anything the Jewish people stand for and adhere to at all. you could say, you are foreigners in your own lands, as you have crowned a single dead Jewish man over yourselves, a now deceased Jewish man that the rest of the Jews themselves have rejected.
It should make you rethink your actions, your words, your thoughts, and indeed your entire life.

The scribes, the high priests, the members of high Jewish society, and those of the lesser Jewish society, continued to live their lives as they always have since Biblical times and since time immemorial, following the teachings of their people and their forefathers, instead of being led astray by the megalomaniac messianic insanity of a single person of Jewish descent.
whether if the early Christian tale about one Jesus of Nazareth is grounded in an historical grain or not.

 

[Sikh]

Caladan, I have a question. I understand that you are scholar of history, particularly Israel's. How much of what the Rabi keep of God's "Laws" are just copies of a copies with scarce resemblance to authentic Sumerian, and later Zoroastrian laws?

 

[Caladan]

Caladan, I have a question. I understand that you are scholar of history, particularly Israel's. How much of what the Rabi keep of God's "Laws" are just copies of a copies with scarce resemblance to authentic Sumerian, and later Zoroastrian laws?

I have no idea what you are talking about. it is by no standard to what common Jewish men are thinking about.
If you claim that Judaism is a copy of Sumerian religion or Zoroastrianism. all I have to say is Godspeed on your journey into a downward spiral.
Where are the Zoroastrians today?
they a severely persecuted minority in a larger Shiite community. scattered around the world by this harsh persecution.
Sumerian is so far into the distant past, a culture which has blended with the Semitic Akkadians who arrived into southern Mesopotamia, where the two cultures have created a symbiosis, later emerging as the Akkadian empire, and reaching the point in which Akkadian, a Semitic language has gradually replaced the Sumerian tongue. later, the Babylonians, another Semitic people have forged their empire in the geographical area of the former Akkadian empire, and have perfected the religion of the Sumerians and the Akkadians, their diffusion of ideas and beliefs, and compiled it into the well established Enuma Elish, also bringing for the first time proper astronomical science into the Mesopotamian religion.
we should be educated enough to at least understand these very basics of the history of the region we are talking about.
instead of throwing historical terms such as 'Sumerian' or 'Zoroastrian' with no context whatsoever to history or to contemporary times.
If ever, the Jews are and have always remained the living and direct historical link to these cultures. if for some reason you would like to argue there is anything wrong with Semitic and Middle eastern people exchange of ideas. all I can say is good luck. this is one case of 'divide and conquer' you cannot establish. yet often I see men, making that same fatal mistake. starting a land war in Asia.

 

[Sikh]

Caladan, peace. I am asking if you see the parallels between what you are saying the Christians have done regarding religious laws of the Jews, and the Jewish Laws in comparison to religious Laws which were around them like Summarian and Zoroastrian Laws.

As for divide and conquer, have you lost the plot? Are you not practicing divide and conquer when you say the Christians are all heretics?

You've got me curious, as an archeologist, how do you explain the Jewish laws and their similarity to the Summarian state decrees?

 

[Caladan]

Caladan, peace. I am asking if you see the parallels between what you are saying the Christians have done regarding religious laws of the Jews, and the Jewish Laws in comparison to religious Laws which were around them like Summarian and Zoroastrian Laws.

No comparison whatsoever. and it is an irrelevant question.
'Christianity' was originated from an early sect within a larger mother religion.
The Jews, the Zoroastrians, and the civilizations of the near east. have all diffused ideas between one another.
to this day scholars debate among themselves which piece of Hebrew literary work has influenced which Egyptian literary work, and which Egyptian literary work has influenced which Hebrew literary work.

As for divide and conquer, have you lost the plot? Are you not practicing divide and conquer when you say the Christians are all heretics?

Are you really in a state of complete ignorance?
Judaism has ALWAYS rejected Christians.
Have you not followed history for the past 2000 years at all?
The Christians have labelled us the murderers of their Christ, their god. a Jewish man.

 

[Muffled]

So, you don't have muh use for religious foolishness, isn't that right? In that case, what do you mean in post #149 above about "The demon couldn't stand it, and fled , and never returned?" Is there any religious foolishness more of a folish statement than that? Demons do not exist and nobody can prove it. They are only a concept to illustrate
the evil inclination in man.

Don't worry about the proscription Jesus gave you about us. I can take it, even with my hands tight behind by back. That's what Mark Twain told about us in the following assay, which I agree with:

The Essay of Mark Twain About the Jews.

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way.

Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished.

The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain

I can find more religious foolishness in your writings than in most of the writing in this forum. Is this a speaialty for you?

You can't simply eliminate someone's experience simply because you don't believe in it. That is foolishness. Jesus cast out demons and He is God. Since God recognizes that there are demons, then they do exist.

That isn't the point. It is for my benefit not yours.

 

[Ben Masada]

I can find more religious foolishness in your writings than in most of the writing in this forum. Is this a speaialty for you?

You can't simply eliminate someone's experience simply because you don't believe in it. That is foolishness. Jesus cast out demons and He is God. Since God recognizes that there are demons, then they do exist.

That isn't the point. It is for my benefit not yours.

But the problem is that you are vandalizing my religion by picking up one from us to make of him a Greek demigod. This is distortion of Judaism in the sight of the nations, as if there is place in Judaism for Greek Mythology. We would not be having this conversation if you picked up someone else from another religion like Buddha, Ghandi, or Zoroaster, or anyone else. But a Jew cannot be God. Who has decided that God recognized that there are demons, you? That's much more of a foolishness than my words seem to you. Therefore, you have made mine the point to defend.

 

[free spirit]

I don't see any logical reason for a gentile to pity what many of you seem to consider to be some of the most successful men and women in today's world.
On the other hand. the Jews have all the reason to pity men like you, who idolize a single man of Jewish heritage and treat him as god himself.
Your blessings of your deceased man-god. are an abomination by the law of the Hebrew prophets and the scriptures.
You and the rest of the remaining Christians in the world have refused to confront one of the most startling historical spins. the main body of Jews, the scribes, the high priests, the common priests, the Jewish sages, the everyday hardworking Jews, the members of the Jewish resistance, the Jews who administrated the province. and of course the high officials of the Roman authorities in the land of Israel.
have stuck to the teachings of the Hebrew prophets, and to the teachings of the Hebrew scriptures, the Jewish law.
The rest of you, have received a copy of a copy of a mutation with scarce resemblance to authentic Jewish law or to authentic Judaism, or to anything the Jewish people stand for and adhere to at all. you could say, you are foreigners in your own lands, as you have crowned a single dead Jewish man over yourselves, a now deceased Jewish man that the rest of the Jews themselves have rejected.
It should make you rethink your actions, your words, your thoughts, and indeed your entire life.

The scribes, the high priests, the members of high Jewish society, and those of the lesser Jewish society, continued to live their lives as they always have since Biblical times and since time immemorial, following the teachings of their people and their forefathers, instead of being led astray by the megalomaniac messianic insanity of a single person of Jewish descent.
whether if the early Christian tale about one Jesus of Nazareth is grounded in an historical grain or not.

Abraham did not have the Law or the paraphernalias that goes with that, yet his faith was counted as righteousness, therefore the promise that God made to him was not based on law but on the righteouseness of faith. Jesus is the seed of Abraham who has received the promise of the Holy Spirit, that is why Christians worship Him, He has become one with God.
On the other hand Jews seek the things of this world and as you say they are very good at it, but in the end they will be left with nothing.