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Jesus as an antithesis to Passover

Brian2

Veteran Member
For you will not depart in haste, ***** God speaks to the Jews through the prophet

Nor will you leave in flight; ***** same “you” – the nation of Jews

For the LORD is marching before you, ***** The prophet describes God’s relationship to Jews

The God of Israel is your rear guard.*****

“Indeed, My servant shall prosper, ***** God describes that same relationship as the Jews

Be exalted and raised to great heights. ***** Are his servant

Just as the many were appalled at him -- ***** the servant/him is described by God. The many (the

So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, ***** other people of the world) looked at the Jews this way

His form, beyond human semblance—׃*****

Just so he shall startle many nations. ***** Also entire other nations will see him/servant this way

Kings shall be silenced because of him, *****

For they shall see what has not been told them, ***** Other kings will see what they can’t believe

Shall behold what they never have heard.”*****

“Who can believe what we have heard? ***** The kings speak, wondering about the unbelieveable

Upon whom has the arm of the LORD--a been revealed? ***** Asking about the state of the Jews

For he has grown, by His favor, like a tree crown, ***** the same subject – him/servant/Jews is described by

Like a tree trunk out of arid ground. ***** The same foreign kings who marvel at the situation

He had no form or beauty, that we should look at him: ***** the “we” is the kings who are being quoted

No charm, that we should find him pleasing. ***** The “him” is still the nation, the Jews, God’s servant

He was despised, shunned by men, ***** The kings realize how the Jews were shunned

A man of suffering, familiar with disease. ***** And how they suffered

As one who hid his face from us, ***** Like someone so ashamed he hid himself

He was despised, we held him of no account. ***** “we” (the foreign nations) considered him lowly

Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, ***** But the whole time, say the kings, he was suffering

Our suffering that he endured. ***** As a replacement for what we deserved to suffer

We accounted him plagued, ***** We just thought God was being mean to him

Smitten and afflicted by God;*****

But he was wounded because of our sins, ***** but it wasn’t mean-ness. It was God making him pay

Crushed because of our iniquities. ***** For what WE (foreign nations) did

He bore the chastisement that made us whole, ***** we stayed whole while and BECAUSE the Jews paid for it

And by his bruises we were healed. ***** And through the Jews’ suffering, the nations stayed well

We all went astray like sheep, ***** We (foreign nations) did bad things

Each going his own way;*****

And the LORD visited upon him ***** and God punished the Jews

The guilt of all of us.”*****

He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, ***** And yet the Jews didn’t complain

He did not open his mouth;*****

Like a sheep being led to slaughter,*****

Like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her,*****

He did not open his mouth.*****

By oppressive judgment he was taken away, ***** He was exiled, taken from his homeland

Who could describe his abode?*****

For he was cut off from the land of the living*****

Through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment. ***** Because of us.

And his grave was set among the wicked, ***** even in death he was punished

And with the rich, in his death-*****

Though he had done no injustice ***** though he didn’t do wrong

And had spoken no falsehood.*****

But the LORD chose to crush him by disease, ***** God wanted to punish him in this world

That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, ***** so that if he bore it patiently

He might see offspring and have long life, ***** he would see his descendants flourish

And that through him the LORD’s purpose might prosper. ***** And his children carry out God’s plan

Out of his anguish he shall see it; ***** By being willing to suffer, the Jews will see

He shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. ***** The fruits of devotion later


“My righteous servant makes the many righteous, ***** God, in 1st person, now describes the situation

It is their punishment that he bears; ***** the servant nation bears the foreign nations’ punishment

Assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, ***** so he will earn a heck of a great reward

He shall receive the multitude as his spoil.*****

For he exposed himself to death*****

And was numbered among the sinners,*****

Whereas he bore the guilt of the many*****

And made intercession for sinners.” ***** The Jews suffered on behalf of others and saved them.

Interesting analysis. Much of it I can agree with but of course the Christian translation is usually a bit different and we see the prophecy of the servant as beginning with "See my servant will act wisely"
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is also plain that Gen 2 is not about the creation of the universe and is just about the creation of man and what God did then, including planting Eden and creating some (more) animals for Adam to name.
Regardless, the order is different, so...

You might be quite certain that they were written at different times and by different authors. I'm not certain at all.
I'm not "certain" but most serious theologians are quite certain. And since I am not a believer in scriptural inerrancy, this doesn't bother me one iota.

But I do believe the whole things is inspired by God.
Likely, imo, but not to the point of His composing every word or idea.

IYO, are other scriptures in other religions also Divinely inspired?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Regardless, the order is different, so...

I'm not "certain" but most serious theologians are quite certain. And since I am not a believer in scriptural inerrancy, this doesn't bother me one iota.

Likely, imo, but not to the point of His composing every word or idea.

IYO, are other scriptures in other religions also Divinely inspired?

The order is different but that does not matter since Gen 2 is not the creation of the universe and earth.
Imo it shows that God began forming man from the earth before plants were growing on the land. It points to evolution imo.
Other scriptures of course have some good things in them and parts of them could have been inspired by God but clearly not all of them or they would agree with the Bible imo.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The order is different but that does not matter since Gen 2 is not the creation of the universe and earth.
That's fine as far as being a hypothesis is concerned.

Imo it shows that God began forming man from the earth before plants were growing on the land. It points to evolution imo.
Could you clarify this?

Other scriptures of course have some good things in them and parts of them could have been inspired by God but clearly not all of them or they would agree with the Bible imo.
But how could you know that the Bible is the supposed correct one? [I'm playing devil's advocate :D]

I read the Bible daily, and I wouldn't do as such of I felt it was worthless. However, in my long life and study, I came to more believe that Divine Inspiration had to long precede the writing of the Bible and that it had to be universal. I can explain if you want.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That's fine as far as being a hypothesis is concerned.

That's what I see from believing the Bible and reading Gen 2 with the view that it is not blatantly contradictory like you suggest.

Could you clarify this?

I start with the idea that Gen 2 is not another creation story but is a continuation of Gen 1 but concentrating on man.
Verses 5-7 tells us when God started to form man from the ground. When compared to Gen 1 it could have been on day 3 when God created the plants (and also created along with that the micro life from which animals also evolved).
Eventually the body of man was formed (through evolution and imo some manipulation at the end in order to have a uniqueness in man and only one of him) Then on day 6 (Gen 1) God created man by breathing into him the breathe of life.

But how could you know that the Bible is the supposed correct one? [I'm playing devil's advocate :D]

That is by faith and seeing the contradictions on certain matters.

I read the Bible daily, and I wouldn't do as such of I felt it was worthless. However, in my long life and study, I came to more believe that Divine Inspiration had to long precede the writing of the Bible and that it had to be universal. I can explain if you want.

I also believe that divine inspiration preceded the writing of the Bible and was not confined to Abraham and his descendants. That can be seen in the pages of the Bible itself.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's what I see from believing the Bible and reading Gen 2 with the view that it is not blatantly contradictory like you suggest.
In a sense, it's not contradictory as it's what theologians call "variations", and there's myriads of them found throughout the Bible. One example is the women who visited Jesus' tomb whereas no two accounts agree. That doesn't bother me as I picture somewhat different accounts since the gospels were written decades after Jesus was crucified and also by different authors.

I start with the idea that Gen 2 is not another creation story but is a continuation of Gen 1 but concentrating on man.
Verses 5-7 tells us when God started to form man from the ground. When compared to Gen 1 it could have been on day 3 when God created the plants (and also created along with that the micro life from which animals also evolved).
Eventually the body of man was formed (through evolution and imo some manipulation at the end in order to have a uniqueness in man and only one of him) Then on day 6 (Gen 1) God created man by breathing into him the breathe of life.
Thanks for your clarification.

That is by faith and seeing the contradictions on certain matters.
Again, I'll use the word "variations". But the "faith" part I definitely agree with.

I also believe that divine inspiration preceded the writing of the Bible and was not confined to Abraham and his descendants.
Glad we at least agree on that.:)
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
A number of recent posts related to Jesus rising on Easter or the like made me realize that this would make Jesus kind of the opposite of one of the main ideas of Passover, which is ironic because Christians consider him to be the ultimate Passover lamb.

Let me explain: During Passover, Jews eat unleavened bread, called "matzah" in Hebrew. This is in memory of the bread that the Israelites took with them out of Egypt which didn't rise because they left hurriedly. You can probably already tell where I'm going with this...

The Israelites were hurriedly taken out of Egypt. This seems kind of strange because as they were in Egypt for so long, God couldn't wait a few hours more for them to make proper bread? There are many answers to this question, but the general idea is that it was necessary for the Israelites to leave in a hurry, and it was likewise necessary for the bread not to have had enough time to rise.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have risen after three days. In other words, he was in no real hurry, and he rose, just like the sort of bread that is not consumed on Passover.

So it seems to me difficult to suggest that Jesus somehow fulfilled Passover or something like that. Quite the opposite, actually.
Maybe he kept the Sabbath rest.
 
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