Jesus Christ: the greatest story ever told?

[Brian2]

If you are going to play with it that way, why stop at two meaning? Why not have three, or ten, or a thousand?

Two meanings is fine even if the Jewish meaning does not fulfill the prophecy as well as the Messianic meaning.
God is the one who gave the prophecy and knew what He was doing when He did that. He gave it so that it could be understood in more than one way. The Jews that have suffered since the exile in 70AD have that prophecy to cling to as being about them and that they will be justified in the end.
God has not made the Messianic prophecies concerning Jesus super clear. It appears that all of them can be interpreted in more than one way and that is how God wanted it. He did not want everyone, including the Jews and maybe especially the Jews, knowing exactly what would happen and how they would be killing their Messiah, who would be resurrected and return to fulfill the rest of the prophecies.
Imagine if the story of the first advent and His death etc was clear.
Would that justify the Jews in killing Jesus or would they say, "We can't kill our Messiah?"

 

[Brian2]

No .. history was manipulated for political reasons.
It is not heresy to be a Jew, but it is heresy to be a Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus is God?
Why were so many early writings ordered to be burnt by Trinitarian Emperors?
[rhetorical question]

Even Constantine himself, died with a so-called Arian belief.

IMO the history has been manipulated by those who want to say that Jesus is not divine.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, we Jews understand correctly the texts of our direct ancestors received, wrote, perserved, and transmitted to us, etc.. You are correct about that. Now you are catching on.

YET, you don't have to beleive us on that one.

Thanks, you had me sweating on that, thinking that I might have to believe what you said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

IMO the history has been manipulated by those who want to say that Jesus is not divine.

Can you demonstrate that, by citing historical evidence that so-called Arians burned texts and so on?

 

[Brian2]

Can you demonstrate that, by citing historical evidence that so-called Arians burned texts and so on?

No and I did not say that Arians burnt texts. It is in this day and age that those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus have manipulated the history and made it look as if things happened that did not happen.
A lot of that seems to center around the Council of Nicea and what happened there.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No and I did not say that Arians burnt texts. It is in this day and age that those who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus have manipulated the history..

Are you saying that modern historians are burning history books?
What, exactly?

 

[Brian2]

Are you saying that modern historians are burning history books?
What, exactly?

I'm saying that organisations that say Jesus is not divine end up changing history when they write about it and say things like Constantine made Jesus into a god and Constantine decided for the Bishops and chose the wording for the Nicene creed etc.
The JWs even say that the Church Fathers did not teach that Jesus is God.
Their members believe them of course and many others who read their literature believe it is real history. Lies get spread around and before you know it history has been changed in the minds of many people.
How many people say that the holocaust did not happen? How many people say that the US election was really won by Trump? Manipulations of history happen a lot. How many people think that the US did not land men on the moon?
Then the liars say that the truth is a lie and in the end who do you trust?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Lies get spread around and before you know it history has been changed in the minds of many people..

..but I'm not talking about "in the minds of people", I'm talking about what reliable historical scholars know about the last 2000 years..

Manipulations of history happen a lot..

I agree with you there. One has to look into all the details of a claim before making a conclusion.
"my church says so" is not good enough. It needs to be backed up with evidence.

Now, you claim the so-called Arians are / were heretics.
You say that believing Jesus is not God is heresy.
No .. it's purely political and you can't prove otherwise.

History shows that Constantine died as a so-called Arian.
..so why the big fuss?
Do you think that the Creator of the Universe needs people to make theological decisions with councils, and then kill the others who vote against?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The JWs even say that the Church Fathers did not teach that Jesus is God.

It depends what "Church Fathers" they refer to.
Origen of Alexandria has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced". He lived from about 185 - 253 AD.
I don't think he taught that Jesus is God.

In 397, Rufinus published a Latin translation of Origen's On First Principles. Rufinus was convinced that Origen's original treatise had been interpolated by heretics and that these interpolations were the source of the heterodox teachings found in it. He therefore heavily modified Origen's text, omitting and altering any parts which disagreed with contemporary Christian orthodoxy. In the introduction to this translation, Rufinus mentioned that Jerome had studied under Origen's disciple Didymus the Blind, implying that Jerome was a follower of Origen.

Jerome was so incensed by this that he resolved to produce his own Latin translation of On the First Principles, in which he promised to translate every word exactly as it was written and lay bare Origen's heresies to the whole world. Jerome's translation has been lost in its entirety.
Origen - Wikipedia

..so we no longer have the original "On the First Principles" written by Origen. That was one of the texts that was ordered to be destroyed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would that justify the Jews in killing Jesus or would they say, "We can't kill our Messiah?"

Jesus was executed by Rome.

 

[dybmh]

In Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses prophesies the coming of a Prophet. This is not Moses himself, nor is it Muhammad! Jesus, however, confirms his authority as that Prophet [John 17:8].

No, sorry, Deuteronomy 18 cannot be talking about Jesus. Please note the meaning of "nachash" strongs 5172: Divining auspicious times is forbidden. Jesus is claimed to have done this in John 7:6. "Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do."

Deuteronomy 18:10:

 

[dybmh]

If the meaning yachid was meant there was no reason to use the ambiguous echad in the Shema.

Keep reading past verse 4. If the meaning was a plurality then 6:13 would not be written in singular.

 

[dybmh]

He is a compound one, echad became the perfect choice of words.
However it is also in the OT that we get the hint that God is a compound one.

The reason that echad is the perfect word choice is because the word echad is the numeral "one". God is number 1. It's that simple. Complicating it with a compound one is wishful thinking.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, sorry, Deuteronomy 18 cannot be talking about Jesus. Please note the meaning of "nachash" strongs 5172: Divining auspicious times is forbidden. Jesus is claimed to have done this in John 7:6. "Therefore Jesus told them, “My time is not yet here; for you any time will do."

Deuteronomy 18:10:

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Jesus was not practising divination when he said, 'My time is not yet come'. He was talking with his brethren (not disciples), telling them that he could not show himself openly at the feast of Tabernacles because people wanted to kill him. He was spiritually aware that his time to die had not yet come, and therefore went up to Jerusalem secretly [John 7:10].

The fact that he was aware that his death was determined by his Father demonstrates that he walked by the Spirit, as prophets must do.

 

[dybmh]

In the New Testament it is made clear that the Son has the same name as His Father and that the 2 are one thing and the Father created everything through His Son. God spoke His Word at the creation.

If this is true, then that absolutely proves that the Christian god is not the same as the Jewish God.

In Christianity, your claim is "the Son has the same name as His Father".

In the Torah it says, "And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

What you're saying is a clear contradiction of the Torah.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus was not practising divination when he said, 'My time is not yet come'. He was talking with his brethren (not disciples), telling them that he could not show himself openly at the feast of Tabernacles because people wanted to kill him. He was spiritually aware that his time to die had not yet come, and therefore went up to Jerusalem secretly [John 7:10].

The fact that he was aware that his death was determined by his Father demonstrates that he walked by the Spirit, as prophets must do.

1) "He was spiritually aware that his time to die had not yet come" = divination of an auspicious time, nachash, the way of the serpent
2) "The fact that he was aware that his death was determined by his Father demonstrates that he walked by the Spirit, as prophets must do." I have never heard of another established Jewish prophet who prolaimed auspicous times for events. If you can find one, then that will resolve the problem for me.

Thank you,

 

[Redemptionsong]

1) "He was spiritually aware that his time to die had not yet come" = divination of an auspicious time, nachash, the way of the serpent
2) "The fact that he was aware that his death was determined by his Father demonstrates that he walked by the Spirit, as prophets must do." I have never heard of another established Jewish prophet who prolaimed auspicous times for events. If you can find one, then that will resolve the problem for me.

Thank you,

Divination, which takes many different forms, is a method of obtaining knowledge from familiar spirits; to my understanding, this knowledge does not come directly from God, and that is the reason it's condemned. The practices include rhabdomancy, hepatoscopy, teraphim, necromancy, astrology, hydromancy, lots, and occasionally dreams.

The soul of Jesus was one with the Spirit of his Father [John 10:30], and this enabled him to know the Father's will. We also know that he pointed to the 'sign of Jonas' to indicate not just his death but also his resurrection after three days and nights [Matthew 12:39,40]. This shows that the information had already been revealed in prophecy, and was not entirely new. In fact, from a Christian point of view, there are numerous prophecies that indicate the death of the Son of Man. So, Jesus, as a prophet, was building on what already existed in the word of God. It may have been that the detail of his death became clearer as his ministry advanced. Let us not also forget that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 on the cross.

 

[Jainarayan]

Is the story of Jesus Christ the greatest story ever told?

When I was Christian I would have responded with an unqualified "yes". As a Hindu, my response is "it's not even close".

 

[dybmh]

Divination, which takes many different forms, is a method of obtaining knowledge from familiar spirits; to my understanding, this knowledge does not come directly from God, and that is the reason it's condemned. The practices include rhabdomancy, hepatoscopy, teraphim, necromancy, astrology, hydromancy, lots, and occasionally dreams.

Umm. Your definition seems to be off. Casting lots is 100% kosher. Look back to the yearly atonement ritual (Yom Kippur) in Leviticus. They cast lots to see which animal was sacrificed and which one was sent into the wilderness. The prohibition we're talking about is, "וּמְנַחֵ֖שׁ". The kjv translates this as "one who interprets omens". It's at least related to how Bilaam prophesied. This is disclosed in Numbers 24:1 "[Bilaam] did not, as at other times, seek נְחָשִׁ֑ים...". So simply taking the definition as "divination" is not going to be entirely accurate.

The soul of Jesus was one with the Spirit of his Father [John 10:30], and this enabled him to know the Father's will. We also know that he pointed to the 'sign of Jonas' to indicate not just his death but also his resurrection after three days and nights [Matthew 12:39,40]. This shows that the information had already been revealed in prophecy, and was not entirely new.

Just because it was revealed in prophecy, doesn't mean that the method for obtaining the prophecy is allowed for a Jewish prophet. Remember, the claim was (paraphrasing) "Jesus was the prophet spoken about in Deuteronomy 18:15". He can still be a prophet even if he's not the prophet or practicing Judaism.

from a Christian point of view, there are numerous prophecies that indicate the death of the Son of Man. So, Jesus, as a prophet, was building on what already existed in the word of God. It may have been that the detail of his death became clearer as his ministry advanced.

I don't disagree. But that doesn't help. What's needed is an example of another Jewish prophet who portends when they are supposed to die. Otherwise, it's not a stretch to consider the possibility that Jesus was not following Jewish law during his ministry.

Let us not also forget that Jesus quoted Psalm 22 on the cross.

The topic is וּמְנַחֵ֖שׁ, a prohibition which would disqualify a prophet from the Jewish community. What does Psalm 22 have to do with it?

If we're being reminded of scripture though, I'd like to remind you that if you compare what Bilaam says ( Numbers 23:12 ) with what Jesus says ( John 12:49 ), there is a similarity to their approach.

 

[rational experiences]

Father and mother...we are all babies by sex is who came out of the eternal spirit. Nature and animal spirit before them.

By what we Infer falsely as a window or door...walking spirits then grounded. Some could fly.

So first we were spiritually hovering over the ground. Then we were bio grounded.

Reason water oxygen evaporation off ground to ground. Flooding rain. The theme taught correctly.

So humans aware stated the flood and position G O D spinning cooling gases with water...the door inference opened. Eternal is on the other side of space. Space plus burnt eternal it's womb. Isn't the eternal body.

The eternal always existed and unlike human form is unconditionally loving. You can't speak to it nor challenge it. Status one type. It just loves us.

Spirit all different bodies in same conditions changed by water microbial oxygen emergence.

My mother's recorded visionary message said rock and trees caused their eternal spirit bodies to change.

It's believable.

Our brother the theist scientist is a baby man self idolator.

Pretty basic.

You got brain prickled burnt by Satan's star fall. Became an inane liar...king lord rich men.

You heard old man's origin earth science pyramid destruction. Speaking. After brain chemical change. Explained it as a man god. Lied.

As historic Satan angel image animals women men. All killed by you satanist scientist. On origin earth position a very long time ago. Instant deep earth found machine parts snap frozen the proof.

Machine put back in natural laws earth position.

When clouds cooled the old science message emerged as visionary old man's science advice. Where man you scientist gained advice pyramid terms. By Satan terms God memory.

Image voice recordings only.

Except the pyramid modern was not the same as he used. Your advice varied by star mass. As his pyramid theme was to time transport biology outside of space time back into our eternal form.

I heard his and your statement...so you cannot get over the burn then!!!!!

As dinosaur images are seen in clouds. Just another proof your idea a man is special lies.

Nature special.
Animals special.
Mother special.
Father special.

Were the spiritual entry first...not you.

You're just a man baby by sex.

So my mother taught me. Yes we are spiritual beings.

Every one man gets attacked and is reminded of where science thesis...the sun mass came from. Lots of men had the spiritual experience. Father the special advisor.

And no you didn't time transport us. You burnt us all to death.

Machine he said was old eternal mass as a deceased mass of spirit in God earth. O gods planets. He raised it the machine itself he theoried by alchemical dust converting. Time shifted it's mass in cosmic law.

When father advised why life biology was sacrificed.... you knew it was then saved by mass water ice cooled saviour....voice speaking father re recorded again and again transmitters. It's a science caused effect only.

A God cooling heavens outcome. Seeing men of science won't stop changing earths mass body heavens. Cause effect.

Seeing I live in Australia. Americans are doing all the studies. I hear the native American Indian father. I'm in Australia he's not our nation's father.

You only ever self idolated in a chemical changed baby man's life. Your actual stated teaching...false preached.

Two terms of Jesus one is the criminal and the other told a man's truth. Stigmata is what he suffered. The miracle it emerges then disappears.

In my bio attack ground mass changing. Black whipping fast moving changes felt like I was being cut.

I only ankle swelled to feet shuffling.

Seeing you opened sin K holes...yes you lie brother scientist as a false preacher.

So is father's spirit holy and special? Yes. And so is mother's. And yes we prove by supernatural witnessed phenomena creation had come from a place of spirit.

Therefore if you need to believe you're special to act as our advocate for human rights. Then please do seeing you removed our rights also.